Quote from Racer X NZ :

I agree with you, most religions have this problem and I'm getting at all of them.
My thoughts were mainly based on the large number of crusades, inquisitions, etc that christianity seems to have pushed for the last 1600 years.

well.. muslims have 19% of the world... christians 16%...

be happy christians arent winning

Quote from Hankstar :

Better still, read someone else. Dawkins isn't the only atheist to write a book about religion and *gasp* some atheists actually disagree with him on many points. Dan Dennett's "Unweaving The Rainbow" or "Breaking The Spell" would probably be a little less confronting and he approaches the topic from different directions to Dawkins (but with no less a convincing argument). Michael Shermer & Victor Stenger are good places to start too. But if you really want to be offended, read Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens' books on atheism. They'll make Dawkins seem like a fluffy little bunny with candy in his pocket.

a neat little book where many of these writers are referenced to which deals more with the fundamentals of why we need religions in the first place is "science of discworld 2"... not to mention that its fun to read as well supposedly unlike those others

Quote from Racer Y :

What you're talking about, I really don't know that much of. but I thought there was more than just trading this and switching that to come up with the bible, there was certain things each of these books had to have to be included in the Bible. there was tons of crap that was submitted and reviewed and we're pretty much at the mercy of their judgement as to what really should be there and what's not. Someone once told me that the book of Revelations was barely allowed in. And you know, after reading it over, I find it hard to believe - and don't. I mean it just doesn't really seem to fit in..

Yeah, it basically was trading this for that and seeing which books fit with the overall scheme. It was by general consensus rather than one bloke deciding what was best. It's not really a case of tonnes of crap was submitted, rather, if the New Christian books didn't follow the theme of the Old Testament then they weren't considered for inclusion. It's important to remember that the Old Testament made hundreds of prophecies about the coming Messiah, what he would be like, what he would do, and what would happen to him. So it wouldn't really be in their best interests if a text claimed he was the illegitimate son of a Roman Soldier, or that he wasn't descended from King David, or that he didn't die on a cross and lived to a ripe old age. If Jesus really was the Messiah, he HAD to fulfill certain criteria to prove he was the Messiah. And luckily he did fulfill those criteria, because the books chosen to be included in the New Testament tells us so......(somewhat convenient, if you ask me )

An interesting little aside, if you were to nip down to your local book shop in the 17th and 18th century and pick up a copy of the King James bible, the contents page would look a bit different to what you'd find in a King James bible today. Have a look at the attachment below, see if you can spot the difference

It's true what you say about the book of Revelations, it only made it in by the skin of it's teeth. Probably because it is a kind of an ending to the story. And yes, it is a very odd book, and very difficult to interpret (which was one of the reasons it nearly didn't make it)

One of the big problems with the book of Revelations is that man gets a hold of them and will invariably try to fulfill the prophecies in his own might. Contrary to popular opinion Hitler was religious, he was raised Catholic, and his ultimate plan was for world domination, a one world government, a 1000 year Reich (or reign) and he even attempted to put a 'mark of the beast' on the arms of the Jews (all biblically prophetic 'end time' events). The mistake he made was believing he could do all this in a very short period of time with military power alone. Whereas the capitalist believe it best to use mainly economic and social might, and do it over a much longer timeframe (although a bit of military power always comes in handy for those troublesome nations)

I'm not saying we are in the 'End Times', but checkout all the stuff about the Illuminati, the Jesuit Priesthood, lead by the 'Black Pope' (named because of the colour of his robes, not the colour of his skin) the 'Club of Rome', and the Bilderberg group. It's interesting stuff.

I don't know if you know, but one of the 'End Time' prophecies in the book states that Davids temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem. And every year a group of American Evangelicals fly over there, hire a big truck, and drive a huge foundation stone (apparently from the original temple) up to the site where the temple stood. Unfortunately the site is in a very very sensitive area, i.e it's on the most important Islamic Holy bit of land on the entire planet. So, not surprisingly they get turned away. But they still keep doing it, everyday for a couple of weeks. So not only do we have the evil corporate capitalists trying to fulfill Biblical prophecy in their own power, but we've even got Evangelical Christians doing it too ! It's dangerous stuff if you ask me...

Quote from Hankstar :

Now, go and rest. Trust your immune system and help it out with a little ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) and the odd cup of tea (stimulant, diuretic, plenty of antioxidants) - those little chemical reactions could save your life...actually, they do, every minute of every day

It may have been a throw away line, but it raises an interesting point, that the believer should think about

Where do diseases come from ? Would a loving God build man in his own image stuffed to the gills with every single disease going ? Or as many claim, disease somehow came to life because of sin ?. But if thats true, then doesn't that mean a force other than God has some sort of creative power, or at the very least, the power to turn good bacteria into bad bacteria ?

If God made man to be perfect, and made a perfect environment for him to live in, then why did he give him an immune system ? Perhaps with God being so wise and all, he built in a 'just in case, emergency only' programme.
.
.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Where do diseases come from? Would a loving God build man in his own image stuffed to the gills with every single disease going? Or as many claim, disease somehow came to life because of sin? But if thats true, then doesn't that mean a force other than God has some sort of creative power, or at the very least, the power to turn good bacteria into bad bacteria?

Eesh.

Can't believe people actually equate sickness and infection with the devil, like it's 1408, not 2008! Are we meant to accept that god, in his infinite mercy, wisdom, compassion & power, could or would even allow a force to exist that plagues mankind with illness & suffering? What kind of theological non-logic is that? "Disease exists and we don't like it at all, therefore god's nemesis is responsible"? Anybody who truly thinks diseases come from "sin" are likely the kind of people to sit down and pray really, really hard while their young child slowly & painfully dies instead of seeking medical help. Anybody who clasps their hands and asks god to save their sick child instead of taking that child to a doctor is a dangerous, retarded lunatic and should not be trusted with care of either the bodies or minds of anyone, much less those of children. Disease is caused by organisms & processes within our natural world and it is by treatments developed in this natural world that we cure & manage them.

"Good" and "bad" bacteria are in the eye of the beholder. For example, if you get the "good" bacteria from your intestines onto an open wound (for example by not washing your filthy, filthy toilety hands), they can infect the wound, cause sepsis and, if untreated, can kill you whether you pray or not! Then, when you die, it's not "bad" bacteria (hiding in the corners of your attic, waiting for your heart to stop beating, fangs dripping with saliva) that turn your guts into liquid as they eat you from the inside. It's the good guys that live in your gut and help you digest your food (the ones that live on you start munching as well)! Once you die, they start starving because there's no nurtitional input from you (bad, dead dad. Bad!). They're free from the mechanisms that stop them eating you while you're alive, so they do what they do naturally - consume whatever food's there, which happens to be your intestines and then everything else they happen upon, all the while exrecting delicious-smelling gases like methane and hydrogen sulphide - the same stuff that escapes from your butt while you're walking around scratching it. There's no such thing as "good" or "bad" bacteria my friends - just bacteria that is - according to us - in the wrong place at the wrong time. "Bad" bacteria is actually good for some animals - the disgusting septic saliva of the Komodo dragon contains that much "bad" bacteria that it can quite easily kill you, just by biting you and infecting you with the dangerous bastards that live in its mouth. But the Komod dragon has a developed immunity to the effects of those bacteria and uses them as a defence/hunting mechanism: he bites you; you go off and die of sepsis after a few days; he then finds your rotting carcass and eats you, adding to the pool of nasty toxic bugs living in his mouth.

Quote :

If God made man to be perfect, and made a perfect environment for him to live in, then why did he give him an immune system? Perhaps with God being so wise and all, he built in a 'just in case, emergency only' programme.

If you're talking about the perfection of Eden, well, again, Genesis is no place to be looking for facts.

If god was going about installing failsafes in his creations "just in case", clearly he's nowhere near a perfect designer as his ghost-writers would like people to think, and was acutely aware of his own fallibility (and if he's fallible, why call him God?). If he is/was the creator of everything, why even choose to create disease-causing organisms in the first place? If disease is the punishment god inflicted on man for Original Sin (a ridiculous, hateful, anti-human doctrine by the way), why give us a way to fight it at all? It's utterly insane - like a crazed villain who hunts humans for sport on his private island saying: "I have all the power - a number of huge guns, a complete map of this island and many crazy friends who will all try to kill you in various ways - but I'll make it sporting and give you an hour's head-start and a small pointy stick. Now go!"

@ Hankster......Huh

You quoted me, but put Racer Y's name in there ?

It was a question to the believers...

But, as you say, if it's not 'bad bacteria' that causes disease, then where (from a Biblical point) does disease come from ?

Again, that's a question directed to the believers.

Right, my mistake! Oops :zombie:

Guess I answered it a little too much didn't I...shite...oh well, now edited and slightly fix0rd so as not to be a rant at you

Yeah, numpty of the day award goes to thee my son

To be honest i probably worded it incorrectly, and it was a bit of an ambiguous open ended question.

N.B All i've been trying to do in this thread is get the believer to look at the Bible in a different light, and get them to see what it's really saying, as opposed to what they've been told it says. And see how it compares to the real world that we all live in. Which will hopefully get a few thinking and asking questions of their own belief system and chosen religion.

Not that i want to de-convert anyone. Rather, get people to have a long hard look at what they've dedicated their entire lives too, to see if it really does cut the mustard, and really does do what it says on the tin. (If they're brave enough)

It's not my place to tell people what to think, but, hope people will think.

Oh, my first numpty! I'm so proud! I just want to thank go- hang on ...

You should thank me, for encouraging you, even in times of busty redhead deficits.

Question authority.
Throughout human history, as our species has faced the frightening,terrorizing fact that we do not know who we are, or where we are going in this ocean of chaos, it has been the authorities, the political, the religious, the educational authorities who attempted to comfort us by giving us order, rules, regulations, informing, forming in our minds their view of reality. To think for yourself you must question authority and learn how to put yourself in a state of vulnerable, open-mindedness;chaotic, confused, vulnerability to inform yourself.Think for yourself.Question authority.

-Timothy Leary

Hank Hank HANK! GHeesh dude... LOL Yeah, I'm a bloodthirsty sociopath whose "silly superstitions" from a fanatical and abusive upbringing keep me from going ballistic.

The Genesis thing - The people that wrote this stuff wasn't stupid. If they were just fire using spear throwers trying to justify lightning or I dunno cancer, they wouldn't have been able to write the book - would they? I was just proposing that they had a bit more intelligence that that and maybe they were trying to interpret something they really lacked the vocabulary for.

And boiling down Evolution to just dumb luck? What else could it be?
OK so organism A is more capable than B to survive It has X amount of abilities to adapt to the environment....Lucky for it huh? Must suck to be B.

Going back to this God looking over my shoulder... I read a short story once called Anarchaos. It was a sci-fi story. Any ways the planet the story took place on was called anarchaos and the people that settled there decided the best way to govern themselves was through anarchy. No Government at all. It worked for a couple of generations, but after a while the less moral became the most dominant group and the planet pretty much went to hell in a handbasket.

What you said makes me wonder... would morality ultimately survive if there wasn't anything to hold it? I mean speaking for ourselves yeah, sure we'll still be cool, but what about the others? What about the guy that cheats on his taxes, what about the the little old lady that runs stop signs? What else would they start doing???



@mazz Yeah I know alittle about the stuff you talk about. Why do you think the fundie churches are all so supportive of Israel. I mean most churches in America are supportive, but for the more Fundamentalist churches, there are ulterior motives. There's a minister around here that's working with some equally out there Rabbis to make the perfect Red cow. Yeah, I really don't prescribe to all the conspiracy stuff like bildaberger, but I realize that there are these folks out there trying to force the whole armeggedon issue. They really ought to be careful of what they wish for.

Quote from David33 :

Not exactly. Photosynthesis (and there are some animals that do it, too, btw) uses light energy to convert carbon dioxide and water, into glucose (a simple sugar). So, photosynthesis starts with physical material and ends with physical material; it's just the configuration of the physical material, that changes..................

Thanks for the clarification tho we are on the same page here.

Quote :

I think that you're overgeneralizing about "religion." Certainly, there are "religious" persons who are afraid to to consider ideas that may threaten those that they already have (this applies to some scientists, also, and I would expect that it may apply to particular atheists). However, there are many persons who are devoutly religious and also very curious about many things; and historically, religious scholars have often been at the forefront of naturalist and other philosophical considerations. The Age of Reason, and the Scientific Method, came out of a Christian culture, and these were not at all exclusively the product of atheists. Many great scientists of history, proceeded with their investigations, due to their "religious" belief in a rational and intelligible Creator God that designed nature according to rational and intelligible Laws of Nature that could be found and described.

I was thinking in terms of the more fundementalist religeous, - fear of temptation etc.

You are an obvously well read and intelligent person, and I know you are no exeption as you remark, but I have always been puzzled by intelligent folk who believe in God and life after death without any evidence to support their thinking.

Statistically you are just as likely to suffer a death, cancer or other missfortune as myself, you won't live any longer or be any happier than the average atheist.
It also seems to me that most of the Godfearing countries also have far more natural disasters than most predominantly non religeous countries, (earthquakes, floods, eruptions etc - are these still considered acts of God?).

Quote from Racer Y :

What you said makes me wonder... would morality ultimately survive if there wasn't anything to hold it? I mean speaking for ourselves yeah, sure we'll still be cool, but what about the others? What about the guy that cheats on his taxes, what about the the little old lady that runs stop signs? What else would they start doing???

Just because we have no god does not mean we don't need laws to keep the bad guys in check.
Most Atheist like myself have high moral values you know, I never thought about shooting someone or strapping a bomb to myself to prove a point.
I have no respect for any religeon, but I respect all men that have respect for me as a person.
No matter whether they are religeous black white whatever I don't care.

I don't mind religeous folk who keep religeon to themselves, - but when they think they have god on their side and they think they know the one true way and try to force their way on me - my family or my countries legal system, than I become very very agitated.

I don't believe in atheism, it is not a belief or religeon, it is just a state of mind, I am atheist which simply means I don't believe in any god.
I am a threat to no one I don't seek to convert anyone to my point of view, though I do enjoy good debate on the subject, so I can try to understand the believers point of view.
Religeon had its uses up to a few hundred years ago, but really in 2008 it has no useful significance and it is time the human race grew up and moved on.

I arrived where I am now without influence from others, I simply use what I think is common sense to guide my feelings and actions, and for me religeon falls very short of common sense.

Quote from Racer Y :

Hank Hank HANK! GHeesh dude... LOL Yeah, I'm a bloodthirsty sociopath whose "silly superstitions" from a fanatical and abusive upbringing keep me from going ballistic.

Don't know where you drew that from dude, that's quite an extrapolation - and it's utterly backwards! All I'm saying is that you'd be as good as you are right now, with or without the thought of god looking at you. Why? See third paragraph.

Quote :

The Genesis thing - The people that wrote this stuff weren't stupid. If they were just fire using spear throwers trying to justify lightning or I dunno cancer, they wouldn't have been able to write the book - would they? I was just proposing that they had a bit more intelligence that that and maybe they were trying to interpret something they really lacked the vocabulary for.

Stupid? Perhaps not. Ancient societies were as intelligent as we are, pretty much. They just didn't have the toys we use to observe and confirm things. Ignorant through no fault of their own when it came to the world? Absolutely. So why anybody should continue to take their words as divinely revealed truth, especially after everything Genesis claims can be denied, is utterly incomprehensible to me.

Quote :

And boiling down Evolution to just dumb luck? What else could it be?
OK so organism A is more capable than B to survive. It has X amount of abilities to adapt to the environment....Lucky for it huh? Must suck to be B.

That's the thing. It's not JUST dumb luck. The random part comes in the form an undirected mutation - it's the selective pressure of the external environment which reveals if the mutation is neutral, negative or positive for the individual. So it's not just pure luck. And yeah, I guess it would suck to be B - but it doesn't have to. B could have another mutation which may not make it survive better in the current environment, but perhaps its difference allows it survive better elsewhere, like down on the plains instead of the treetops, or simply further down the tree, instead of up in the canopy.

Look at Madagascar with its many species of lemurs - there are barely any natural predators to eat them, so there are lemurs there occupying almost every conceivable evolutionary niche: nocturnals, diurnals, insect-eaters, strict vegos, all different colour schemes. They all have a long-ago common ancestor but are all distinct species which have evolved along separate paths over the millions of years they've been isolated on that island.

Quote :

Going back to this God looking over my shoulder... I read a short story once called Anarchaos. It was a sci-fi story. Any ways the planet the story took place on was called anarchaos and the people that settled there decided the best way to govern themselves was through anarchy. No Government at all. It worked for a couple of generations, but after a while the less moral became the most dominant group and the planet pretty much went to hell in a handbasket.

I think it's common sense to assume that any society without some of chosen or appointed leadership will degenerate - but it's still not to say that morality is something handed down from above, either from a centralised government or elsewhere.

Funny how people can look at anything as a parable. I once read an Asimov story where two AIs had a conversation in which they reasoned, quite logically and within the three laws of robotics, that the best thing they could do for humanity was to eradicate it. Should I now distrust the work people are doing in AI research? Should I always unplug my PC from the outlet at night, just in case? Or should I just regard that as another great Asimov story?

Quote :

What you said makes me wonder... would morality ultimately survive if there wasn't anything to hold it? I mean speaking for ourselves yeah, sure we'll still be cool, but what about the others? What about the guy that cheats on his taxes, what about the the little old lady that runs stop signs? What else would they start doing???

What, so remove god from people's heads and they graduate from tax-cheat and bad driver to serial cannibal rapist? How does that even begin to approach common sense?

So, what holds morality? The same thing that's always held it - humanity, empathy, our combined, innate social responsibility. The same thing that makes troupes of chimps, meerkats, prairie dogs & flocks of birds & schools of fish looking out for each other. Keep the group alive & safe and that increases your own individual chances of staying alive & safe.

Humans had morality and laws and prohibitions against certain behaviour long before the religion of Abraham formed the 10 commandments out of common sense rules (don't kill, don't lie) and local religious by-laws. You think pre-Jewish people were just running around in complete immoral anarchy? The ancient Athenians, Persians, Babylonians, Chinese, Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, NZ Maoris, Celts, Gauls, Goths etc. all had codes of conduct and laws they lived by, long before Moses, which all had the same things at their core: don't murder; be honest; don't steal from your kin.

But you simply don't need to be religious to know that theft, murder and dishonesty are bad things. It'd be no surprise to me to find that as humans developed language & other ways of communicating our thoughts, we started talking about what's good for the tribe and what's not good. Mating with mom = bad. Make ugly child. Eating red berries = good. Make Ugg mate with female from next valley all night. Killing father = bad. Make mom mad. She hide berries.

Quote from Polyracer :

I don't believe in atheism, it is not a belief or religeon, it is just a state of mind, I am atheist which simply means I don't believe in any god.
I am a threat to no one I don't seek to convert anyone to my point of view, though I do enjoy good debate on the subject, so I can try to understand the believers point of view.

May I say "amen" to that? I've seen & heard the word "atheist" followed or preceded by words like "fundamentalist", "militant" and "evangelist" so many times I'm wondering if the people who use them have actually looked them up to get a proper definition.

Put simply: atheism is a religion as much as "bald" is a hairstyle.

My Thoughts is...


Bibles a load of bolocks, Hell and Heavens a load of bolocks And god Hes Just a load of ........ But thats my Thoughts

But has god actually helped any of you?

And If hes real Hes not a religion

HES CHINESE!

Little far back here, but..

Part of the reason I took offense to the god delusion was because the whole time I was thinking "why does he care?" why is it so important to him to disprove something that the majority of people believe in? The contradictory argument to this is, of course, why do Christians care about people being atheists? Part of the reason I would guess is that christians mean well and want to "save you" while an atheist has nothing to gain by disproving religion other than a sense of "guess I showed those savages the light". Personally, I don't care what people do unless it directly affects me whether they be religious or not, homosexual, etc. These are just things I've observed while questioning my faith in god (which is always a healthy thing).

Perhaps atheists want to go by the old saying "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king" by putting themselves above religious people.

As for morality, people have their own morals whether they're religious or not. Christianity is simply a way that I organize and sorta get some direction in my messed up life.

Scripture (especially genesis) is open to a LOT of interpretation. If you've looked into this at all, you may know that some churches (my presbyterian one anyway) believes that seven days is a metaphor for stages in the development of life in the universe. In fact I consider my church very modern. We celebrate how amazing science and biology is and learn about new things we've discovered about ourselves and are in awe of what a complex being God has created.

^^^Jordan this is an educated discussion. Even though people here don't have to agree, we're all showing respect for different viewpoints. leave your worthless and rude comments out of it

Quote from flymike91 :

The contradictory argument to this is, of course, why do Christians care about people being atheists? Part of the reason I would guess is that christians mean well and want to "save you" while an atheist has nothing to gain by disproving religion other than a sense of "guess I showed those savages the light".

ie the same thing
one tries to save the guy from eternal damnation the other one tries to save the guy from wasting his life... personally i thinks boths views are a pile of hogwash

Quote from Jordan2007 :

My Thoughts is...

Bibles a load of bolocks, Hell and Heavens a load of bolocks And god Hes Just a load of ........ But thats my Thoughts

But has god actually helped any of you?

And If hes real Hes not a religion

HES CHINESE!

Thanks for sharing. The special bus will be here soon to take you back to the care facility. It's crap like your post and its sub-kindergarten lolcat English - hell, you can't even spell "bollocks" - that gets up people's arses and gives non-believers a really shitty name. Sod off.

Shots, Flymike, I'm certainly not interested in "saving" anyone from wasting their lives (I don't think Dawkins is either, ftr) or de-converting people (it would be the height of hypocrisy, for starters). My reasons for my big, stupid posts aren't because I want to disprove religion. I just want people to know why non-believers don't believe their claims (basically, since religion makes big claims, the burden of proof is on them, it's not on non-believers to disprove them). I want for people to be aware of the reasons they believe things and also give their kids a chance to figure their own beliefs out, rather than just soak them in their own particular set from birth so they have no choice in the matter. It's up to you, as adults, what you choose to believe so why not give your kids a chance to make the same choice when they're old enough to think about it properly?

A big thing that riles me is when atheism gets mischaracterised as a completely immoral life choice which leads to anarchy and "sinfulness" and lawless behaviour, and when non-believers get drawn as unfeeling nihilists with no care or appreciation for anything because they don't draw their morals from scripture. I always get a strong urge to debunk such fallacies, which are still unfortunately very popular and inevitably get trotted out in discussions like this.

shotglass we finally agree! This is cause for celebration!

I think we can all agree that pushing a viewpoint on someone is a bad thing (yeah, I do crap on a lot, but I'm absolutely uninterested in de-converting people). I think people should always be free to choose - if certain people can just keep their chosen beliefs away from my doorstep on a Saturday morning, everyone'll be happy

I think I've noticed something (and correct me if I'm wrong) - it never seems to be non-believers who start these threads ...

I'll make another observation:

- Busty redheads never start these threads.
- Busty redheads never show up at my door.
- Religion sucks.
- Vacuums suck.

I therefore conclude:

- Busty redheads should join weird cults and try to get me to join, because I'll be in, but with the promise of coffee and other things... maybe pizza.

Quote from Hankstar :

Shots, Flymike, I'm certainly not interested in "saving" anyone from wasting their lives (I don't think Dawkins is either, ftr) or de-converting people (it would be the height of hypocrisy, for starters).

well yes but youre rational and so is the majority of christians
but youve also been on the intarblag long enough to know that there a a lot of nuts out there who would wake you up at 9 on a sunday morning and tell you that they would like to not talk about god with you if they ever got the idea... might not have been in our best interest to post this now that i think about it

lol @ "intarblag" Consider it part of my languarsenal forever!

I'm also chuckling thinking about an evangelical atheist: "Good morning sir, madam, can I take a few minutes to talk to you about the good news of no-god, and the fact that once you die you'll simply cease to exist and your body will be eaten by worms and the bacteria that live inside you even as we speak?"

Quote from Hankstar :

lol @ "intarblag" Consider it part of my languarsenal forever!

wer since ive been taught to always make proper references
http://www.xkcd.com/181/
(please excuse that i didnt spend the time to turn this into a proper bibtex entry for further use)

Quote from Shotglass :

ie the same thing
one tries to save the guy from eternal damnation the other one tries to save the guy from wasting his life... personally i thinks boths views are a pile of hogwash

You are missing one point, - The truth

Believing in fairies or the superatural or god (pretty much all the same thing without evidence) is one thing but -

How about kids growing up in the real world being taught that the earth is around 6000 yrs old - yup I hope everyone here knows thats bollocks too, but these kids are going to grow up with this sort of thinking.
They are going to grow up believing this crap and it will influence their outlook on life (as intended), they are going into jobs where they will be in conflict with people with a different (or correct) way of thinking, maybe as scientist etc, do you not think these people will have a reasonable balanced view.
You have to think of this as child abuse - which to me describes all religeon anyway.

How would you feel if you had a daughter who caught a bus to work one morning and was killed by a guy that blew himself up taking maybe 30-40 others with him. - Simply because he thought his religeon dictated this was the right thing to do and was promised a reward of life forever shagging virgins.
How does that effect your thoughts on whether religeon or atheism being a pile of hogwash?.

Of course I said your daughter to make it feel personal to you, but those people that died, along with all those people in the World trade Centre, and all those people are dying right now in Irack Palestine Israel, and all those millions of people that have died and will die because of these lies.
They were all someones daughter, son, mother, father, brother, sister.

And its shallow folk like you who glibly say "Its a pile of hogwash" whilst you burn up the planet and tuck into your Big Mac dinner wondering whats on TV tonight.
Was "its a pile of hogwash" the first thing that came into your mind when you saw those planes fly into the WTC?

Or perhaps you thought its in a different country far away and its nothing to do with me?
These things were done by people who believed the same lies as all religeous people.

So thats why as an Athiest I am bothered, - what you believe is up to you, but if you knew the truth you might believe something else entirely.

I'm bothered about the truth because it effects my safety, and that of my family and country - though you may think its a pile of hogwash.

Quote from Shotglass :

but youve also been on the intarblag long enough to know that there a a lot of nuts out there who would wake you up at 9 on a sunday morning and tell you that they would like to not talk about god with you if they ever got the idea... might not have been in our best interest to post this now that i think about it

Quote from Polyracer :

You have to think of this as child abuse - which to me describes all religeon anyway.

and it didnt even take more than 5 posts

btw... fFs its spelled religion learn your own language for crying out loud