Oh I don't know Sam, - I have read a report that churches are now filling with all these Catholic immigrants coming from mainland Europe.
How many churches and how full depends on the amount of new folks moving into a particular suburb.

But I agree with the rest of your comment, in as much as we don't really do religion as fundemental to day to day living for most in the UK.
-then again with some towns and cities now being predominantly Muslim, maybe life is much different in those place.

Quote :

What would your governments do if there was a 9/11 type of situation in your country? Would you let it go, citing it as a quirky religious thing or pursue the people responsible?

An utterly fatuous question, but I'll answer it anyway: most sane, rational governments (hopefully, mine included) would conduct a competent investigation to find out who was responsible and punish them - not simply point the bone at a conveniently unarmed & suspiciously resource-rich country or two and bomb the shit out of them for five years, enriching their friends and killing a million goddam civilians.

Quote :

Americans consider extremist Islam to be the enemy and we are actively pursuing them and attempting to eliminate them so that they don't crash more planes or bomb more UK subways. It may be an impossible mission, but at least we're trying to do something about a problem that affects the entire world whilst you criticize from in front of your computer.

Oh sweet lord, the arrogance!

Yeah Mike, you're quite right. The USA is the only country in the world who thinks islamic extremism and jihadis are dangerous, while everyone else in the world (including Spain, which has plenty of spare trains so they're fine, and the UK which has no experience with terrorism on home soil at all, unless you count, well, those mangled trains and decades of IRA attacks) is kicking back sipping espresso coffees with foam on top and laughing at those ridiculous neocon idiots running your country into the ground, causing damage that'll take decades to fix, both in the US and anywhere & everywhere else the US decides to "liberate".

Or, maybe, perhaps the rest of the world is (a) attempting to seek out terrorists using whatever law enforcement & intelligence methods they have and (b) trying to avoid creating even more jihadis by not invading their countries under false pretenses, not
standing idly by while Israel does whatever it wants, not cosying up to brutal religious tyrants like the Saudis and not locking people up without charges or legal assistance in detention camps and secret prisons all over the world and ****ing torturing them.

Just because the rest of the world isn't spending themselves into an economic coma making their foreign policy look like a Michael Bay film and constantly crowing about it from the rooftops, it doesn't mean we're sitting around staring vacantly and wondering what the hell to do next. Get over yourself, get over your Team America: World Police fantasy & go read something.

^^^^ Amen to that Mr Hank

Quote from Hankstar :

An utterly fatuous question, but I'll answer it anyway: most sane, rational governments (hopefully, mine included) would conduct a competent investigation to find out who was responsible and punish them - not simply point the bone at a conveniently unarmed & suspiciously resource-rich country or two and bomb the shit out of them for five years, enriching their friends and killing a million goddam civilians.

Oh sweet lord, the arrogance!

Yeah Mike, you're quite right. The USA is the only country in the world who thinks islamic extremism and jihadis are dangerous, while everyone else in the world (including Spain, which has plenty of spare trains so they're fine, and the UK which has no experience with terrorism on home soil at all, unless you count, well, those mangled trains and decades of IRA attacks) is kicking back sipping espresso coffees with foam on top and laughing at those ridiculous neocon idiots running your country into the ground, causing damage that'll take decades to fix, both in the US and anywhere & everywhere else the US decides to "liberate".

Or, maybe, perhaps the rest of the world is (a) attempting to seek out terrorists using whatever law enforcement & intelligence methods they have and (b) trying to avoid creating even more jihadis by not invading their countries under false pretenses, not
standing idly by while Israel does whatever it wants, not cosying up to brutal religious tyrants like the Saudis and not locking people up without charges or legal assistance in detention camps and secret prisons all over the world and ****ing torturing them.

Just because the rest of the world isn't spending themselves into an economic coma making their foreign policy look like a Michael Bay film and constantly crowing about it from the rooftops, it doesn't mean we're sitting around staring vacantly and wondering what the hell to do next. Get over yourself, get over your Team America: World Police fantasy & go read something.

End thread.

Can we get a lock?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

End thread.

Can we get a lock?

I can't call the lock. I'm too closely involved in the thread, I'm afraid.

I personally think Hank's bagged the essence of where the world is at, but I worry that his post may be a little too subtle.

Stick with me Sam. Trust me, I'm gradually working toward a point here, in my own roundabout way ...

Quote from Gil07 :

Over here definitely a majority is christian, maybe not really "practicing", but still believing.

define believing
that word can be true for just about any value of religion and with christianity in particular (well mostly because its the religion i know best) its not entirely idiotic to believe that theres more reason for our existence than to keep the evolution going (even if the belief that theres more out there is just perfectly natural paranoia) and that it would be a jolly good idea to be nice to people for a change without having to nail whoever metions that idea to a tree

Quote from Hankstar :

killing a million goddam civilians.

Yeah Mike, you're quite right. The USA is the only country in the world who thinks islamic extremism and jihadis are dangerous, while everyone else in the world (including Spain, which has plenty of spare trains so they're fine, and the UK which has no experience with terrorism on home soil at all, unless you count, well, those mangled trains and decades of IRA attacks)

Or, maybe, perhaps the rest of the world is (a) attempting to seek out terrorists using whatever law enforcement & intelligence methods they have and (b) trying to avoid creating even more jihadis by not invading their countries under false pretenses, not
standing idly by while Israel does whatever it wants.

Sorry to Wsida. The frech flag goes the other way.

I say that the US is the only country that perceives a threat because I don't see any other country making an attempt to wipe out (eliminate, kill, incapicitate, whichever verb you choose) groups like the Taliban, Al-qaeda, and Hamas. If the majority of Muslims are moderate, which has been said before in this thread, and do not agree with extremists, then they should support an effort to eliminate extremism within their own countries. So far I do not see any evidence of this. For example Hamas rule in Palestine is notoriously unable to find terrorists before they attack Israel. Saudi Arabia is unable to eliminate terrorist groups before they attack their own people and the US (9/11). That's why I'm not convinced that moderate Muslims are the majority in the Middle East.

The fact is, they either don't support killing extremists, or are not strong enough to throw off the oppression by themselves. Left alone, Iraq will revert back to Taliban rule and tyrannical dictators despite the fact that peaceful Muslims are supposedly the majority.

If we had invaded Iraq with the clear and announced mission to eliminate extremist Islam, would that be more acceptable?

I don't recall UK mounting an investigation into the London train bombings. If they did, correct me, but I think if they had truly investigated, they would have found extremist Islam to be the perpetrator (it doesn't matter that they found out who physically did it, they're dead anyway) Is the UK bringing the terrorist's groups (Al-qaeda perhaps, I forgot who claimed responsibility) to justice? nope. They would be attempting to dismantle the entire organization to protect their citizens from further attacks past their borders.

I'm not to up on what people think Israel is doing. Sam, you showed me that video, but I'm still not entirely convinced that Israel is not simply protecting it's people. I really would like to know, I don't just go on here to disagree with everyone, you guys have made me see things about the war I don't like (mostly the economic impact on the US) Anyhow as I see it, anyone who attacks Israel is attacking an extremely important ally of the US. Every country surrounding them would attack and kill every single person there if they knew it would not cause an all out war with the US. They don't consider Israel to be a legitimate country for many reasons and would have no problem killing their civilians (they do every day) I give them certain leeway in my mind because they are in a very dangerous situation. Often, they invade the Palestine to protect their people from rockets and suicide attacks, no doubt killing many suspected terrorists and quite possibly a few innocent people. There are few if any attacks by Israeli civilian militants on Palestine.

Here's an analogy that everyone will tear apart: if you knew that 99% of people who approached your home would attack it and do you harm, would you do whatever necessary to protect yourself from a serious threat even if it meant that the 1% might be overlooked and possibly be lumped in with your aggressors?

Here we go...

Quote from flymike :

The fact is, they [moderate Muslims] either don't support killing extremists, or are not strong enough to throw off the oppression by themselves. Left alone, Iraq will revert back to Taliban rule and tyrannical dictators despite the fact that peaceful Muslims are supposedly the majority.

:doh: Iraq will not "revert" to Taliban rule! Iraq was never under Taliban rule to begin with! Iraq didn't even have any problems with muslim extremists until the 2003 invasion. READ something! Especially your own posts, preferably before your post them.

Quote from flymike :

If we had invaded Iraq with the clear and announced mission to eliminate extremist Islam, would that be more acceptable?

Of course not. What would have been "more acceptable" is if your government didn't invade Iraq at all: there were NO WMDs, NO links to al-Qaeda or Osama and, until the US invasion, NO muslim extremist problems in Iraq. Granted, everyone was kept under Saddam's boot. But on that note (in case "freedom" or "liberty" or "apple pie" were the next support-the-invasion cards), a tyrant in power is no legal or legitimate reason to invade and occupy a country; otherwise North Korea, Zimbabwe and Saudi Arabia (among others) would be next on the US "to liberate" list. But, of course, they're not and they won't be. Zimbabwe isn't strategically important enough to "liberate" (yet), the Saudis have a pocket full of Bushes and their hand on the oil spigot and North Korea has one million fully indoctrinated soliders ready to defend it and a formidable military built on the backs of its starving population.

Quote :

I don't recall UK mounting an investigation into the London train bombings. If they did, correct me, but I think if they had truly investigated, they would have found extremist Islam to be the perpetrator (it doesn't matter that they found out who physically did it, they're dead anyway) Is the UK bringing the terrorist's groups (Al-qaeda perhaps, I forgot who claimed responsibility) to justice? nope. They would be attempting to dismantle the entire organization to protect their citizens from further attacks past their borders.

They DID look and they DID find muslim extremists responsible. What's more, the investigation continues as we speak. Google it yourself. This, the latest news on the case, found by me on Google News is from today, five hours ago: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7359426.stm

Investigations often take time - it's not really the done thing in most parts of the world to point a finger and invade a country because it's full of people who look like they might be guilty. Seriously, I mean it: read something and do some research, especially before you state your opinions as fact. It's very, very easy to avoid looking completely ignorant if you just use a combination of your brain and the internet. Just because the slack-jawed Birtney-obsessed US media may tell you nothing about the rest of the world, it's no reason to assume that nothing is happening.

Quote :

Here's an analogy that everyone will tear apart: if you knew that 99% of people who approached your home would attack it and do you harm, would you do whatever necessary to protect yourself from a serious threat even if it meant that the 1% might be overlooked and possibly be lumped in with your aggressors?
Here we go...

Yeah, poor you, how dare anyone jump down your throat at the merest hint of a ridiculously flawed & paranoid analogy?

I think Israel has more than enough to be paranoid about with every surrounding country circling for the kill. I mispoke before. Saddam had ties to the Taliban and Al-qaeda in Afghanistan and was a supporter of state sponsored terrorism. So while Iraq was not under Taliban rule, Saddam Hussein was equivalent or perhaps even worse. I read that from here

It is true the war has been handled badly, the biggest problem was lack of communication of the goals we set in the middle east. Now is not the time to pull out, though. Iraq's democracy to far too shaky to simply leave. What we need to do is support it from the background and put constant pressure on muslim states to reform to provide a system that provides the same rights we enjoy in the western world including education and civil rights. These things may not come without a fight because there are Jihadist groups from western europe to Indonesia who would fight to the death to prevent that, but the question is: is it worth fighting for?

Stability in the Middle East not only helps the US, but all the countries worldwide that depend on Middle Easten oil to fuel their economies including most of western europe as i'm sure we're not the only people feeling the $118 per barrel for oil. I found this which i felt was an unbiased plan for success in the war. One of the best things we can do is amplify the voices of the moderate muslims and silence the voices of the extremists. Silencing them will be difficult because of their enormous influence in uneducated communities.

Option 2 is just to drop it and leave. From what I hear from you guys, the middle east was utopia of peace and understanding before the US invasion.

Quote from flymike91 :

What would your governments do if there was a 9/11 type of situation in your country?

If you didn't know, here at Spain we already suffer a brutal terrorist attack from extremists, being a reaction for our ex-president Aznar supporting Bush's invasion of Iraq

Does that mean we must send the police or army to the mosques and jail or kill anyone who approaches them?

The best way to deal with extremist muslims is not to get involved in their business, but for the greatest nation of the world it seems a really hard job to not pretend to teach the right way to the "poor oppresed infidel people"

I've said plenty of times that i'm not in support of the US providing aid to other countries. But since we're already in it, see my last post.

@flymike91
I am living in a country that nearly all religions members living side by side, mostly Muslims though.
I was interested with Christianity in the past and I can say that I know this religion as an average Christian. Muslims respect to Jesus also, he is known prophet.
Virgin Mary died here, she buried at Selçuk near Efes. I visited her several times and burned some candles for her. I like the concept of the Christs teaching. Also, I like Buddhist teaching too. And I would like to show you a Islam sect; Sufis. This people are Muslim too. And they say;

"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."They are followers of Mevlana.

Seven advice of MEVLANA in generosity and helping others be like a river
in compassion and grace be like sun
in concealing others' faults be like night
in anger and fury be like dead
in modesty and humility be like earth
in tolerance be like a sea
Either exist as you are or be as you look


So flymike91, we all human and we all exactly same. Diversity exist but core is same. Open your eyes.
For middle east; someone post this I dont remember who did but it may help to see other side of the medallion.

Return to subject, average Muslim and Christian or any religion member are same for me. What you call extremists are maybe should not counted as they are part of any religion. If they are terrorists, they are. There is no such a thing like Islamic terror etc. They use the religion as a cover.
Religion itself a tool indeed but not meant to use by humans.

We all coming same source; dozen of eve,
whole world talks same language before several thousands years ago, what happened? Even two cat can understand each other, let say one from Moscow one from Tokyo, than how on earth "the most intelligent creature" can not understand even sometimes in same language.

God created us in his&her image,
so we are like Gods,
and we are exactly act like them.

Quote from flymike91 :

I say that the US is the only country that perceives a threat because I don't see any other country making an attempt to wipe out (eliminate, kill, incapicitate, whichever verb you choose) groups like the Taliban, Al-qaeda, and Hamas.

Could you please explain how this way of solving problems or deliver peace (I mean eliminate, kill, incapicitate, whichever verb you choose) can be supported for christians (like you )?

Take a look at the 5th commandment please. Also take a look at your ancient book and Jesus's words about vengeance and forgiving.

Then look for a retarded excuse and post it here

P.S: I'm actually surprised how much some people at States are over controlled by the media

Quote from flymike91 :

Option 2 is just to drop it and leave. From what I hear from you guys, the middle east was utopia of peace and understanding before the US invasion.

No, the Middle East was a cesspool of hate and oppression, perpetuated by the unconditional Western support for Israel and the need for oil. The invasion in Iraq just made it worse. A lot.

Yes, please leave Iraq, and Afghanistan too. Others will pick up the pieces. Go after the fundamentalists instead. Find out who finances them, and then refuse to buy oil from those countries. Go after the dictators. Stop selling them your weapons. Open peaceful trade, on equal terms. Let human rights and justice prevail over loyalty and economic interests. It would be nice, for a change.

I'm not a perfect christian in any way. I have broken many of the commandments many times. I would give terrorists the same treatment they would give me.

@halo: I don't want to discredit your source because I can see they mean well, but they fail to mention in the "homes destoyed" section the homes that have been destroyed by Palestinian rockets. The site does not mention the terror group Hamas, which was voted in by a majority of Palestinians. Here is what is written in wikipedia about Hamas

Quote :

Best known for multiple suicide bombings and other attacks[4] directed against civilians and Israeli military and security forces targets, Hamas' charter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic state in the area that is now Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.[5] The organization is widely described as antisemitic.[6]
Hamas is listed as a terrorist organization by Canada,[7] Israel,[8] Japan,[9] and the United States,[10] and is banned in Jordan.[11]

for sources, search for Hamas in wikipedia.

If the government that represents a majority of Palestinians vows to destroy Israel, they should expect to be destroyed first by the more powerful, well connected nation. In truth, the government that the majority of palestinians voted for just recently told the US media that it would never respect Israel as a nation. Palestine will NEVER agree to peace with Israel and should not expect the same in return. The website complains that the US does not send Palestine money but the US does not support terrorism, which is a system that the majority of Palestinians voted for. The UN does not support a regime of terror either. The UN will support Israel because they have not vowed to destroy Palestine or any other country. Hamas is funded by Iran, an enemy of the US, yet another reason the UN supports Israel over Palestine. <--source
Hamas is known for calling children and women to perform suicide bombings and them glorifies them on the children's show Al Fateh. Perhaps if children were not taught anti-semitism on TV shows(owned by Hamas, which is supported by the majority of Palestinians) they wouldn't mess with the Israeli military and get themselves shot. Hamas tells children to fight the Israeli military so it is really hamas' fault that they get injured and killed.
While Israel has killed and imprisoned Hamas supporters (I assume they are Hamas supporters b/c Hamas was voted into power by a pretty big majority), they did it to protect their own country and people. Your website is touching and sentimental, but paints Palestine as blameless and it is as facetious and full of half truths as anything else on the internet.

@Wsinda: Saudi Arabia supports most of these groups and it not only where the US gets oil, its very likely that you get oil from there too. We'll stop when the Netherlands stop buying Middle Eastern oil. BP and Total get most of their oil from the middle east and russia. I love how Western Europeans pretend that they don't depend on oil at all. How could any business be done without transportation?

Quote from flymike91 :

I'm not a perfect christian in any way. I have broken many of the commandments many times. I would give terrorists the same treatment they would give me.

It's show time!!

:ices_rofl

It's nice to see how many christians spread that messages of love and peace and then with the minimum effort they make their own rules simply by saying "Hey, look at me, I can't be perfect"

Dude, I really enjoy reading you!!! Don't give it up, you make my day :yipee:

nice way to avoid my entire point. It tells me you don't care or know enough about the subject to have an opinion.

about the post below this: I'm sorry if I sound incoherent, I speak the best English that I can. I read Halo's "other side of the medallion website pretty thoroughly and based my arguments on data and opinions stated on the website. I really don't know what I could say to make my posts more coherent, but its obvious to me that you didn't read what I wrote, telling me that you don't respect anyone's opinion that is against yours. At least I read and think about every post and try to make a serious reply, even if I disagree. ignoring your opponent's argument is not a healthy debate. I would rather you attack my argument rather than my character.

Quote from flymike91 :

nice way to avoid my entire point. It tells me you don't care enough to have an opinion.

I don't think I can make a reasonable conversation with anyone like you, so I take your posts as the comic bits between the serious discussion

If you care to read something, get some information about the external world (Did I tell you before that there's a entire world outside the US?) and stop being incoherent then maybe I will start to think of giving you some credit . Until that day your posts are completely pointless

Anyway, I've answered to what I've referred to. The rest of your post will be quoted by halo and Wsinda (in case they think it worth the time )

So many, many years of paranoia and political propaganda thrust down the throats of US citizens by its so-called politicians its no real surprise they don't have access to a bigger, more balanced picture of the world.

sorry if I didn't find the "if americans knew" site to be balanced I read almost the entire site. I can't get points for trying to read past the US media? It didn't even mention hamas at all, which is the main reason they have no support by the UN. I'm just trying to get some dialogue going and all you can do is attack my nationality.

Quote from halo :

"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."They are followers of Mevlana.

Seven advice of MEVLANA
in generosity and helping others be like a river
in compassion and grace be like sun
in concealing others' faults be like night
in anger and fury be like dead
in modesty and humility be like earth
in tolerance be like a sea
Either exist as you are or be as you look

Thank you for this.

Quote from halo :

For middle east; someone post this I dont remember who did but it may help to see other side of the medallion.

What would you expect to be the likely result, if Palestinians were to cease bombing and shooting rockets into Israel, and if Palestinians, Arabs and Iranians were to decide that they would allow Israel to continue to exist, and that they would willingly live in peace with it and with its citizens?

Quote from halo :

Return to subject, average Muslim and Christian or any religion member are same for me. What you call extremists are maybe should not counted as they are part of any religion. If they are terrorists, they are. There is no such a thing like Islamic terror etc. They use the religion as a cover.

Quote from halo :

I am living in a country that nearly all religions members living side by side

Your second quote, above, describes my country, also. Furthermore, it can be regarded, in a way, as describing the world, generally.

Therefore, Americans recognize that there is a distinction between Muslims that are violent enemies of the USA (and non-Muslims, generally), and Muslims that are not such enemies. And we are inclined to be very careful, to avoid confusing these two.

Unfortunately, those Muslims who are violent enemies of the USA (and non-Muslims, generally), explain that this is so, because they are Muslims. Furthermore, they can provide references to their scriptures, which support their proposition - that being Muslim, requires that they be (even violent) enemies to non-Muslims.

(This is unlike Judaic and Christian scriptures, since in the case of the former, any scriptural requirements to behave violently toward non-Jews, are apparently specific [e.g. - a requirement to conquer the inhabitants of Canaan, following the Exodus, refers specifically to that time, place and circumstance], while there are no scriptural requirements at all, to the effect that Christians should be enemies of non-Christians.)

Because there are a great many persons, who explain that being Muslim, requires being an (even violent) enemy of non-Muslims, it is very difficult to explain, and maintain, a distinction between those Muslims who are enemies of non-Muslims, and those who are not - especially when, among the former group, there are persons who actually perpetrate such violence, while others explain that doing so, is righteous Muslim behavior.

The principal purpose of the invasion of Iraq, according to my understanding, was to eliminate Saddam Hussein's Iraq as a resource for Muslim "terrorists," inasmuch as the USA had noticed that it was in a war against them (following several decades of intermittent and usually distant attacks, but eventually, the destruction of a national landmark and populated office building in New York City). Other benefits of removing Saddam Hussein, might include eliminating some source of anger and frustration, among Middle-Eastern inhabitants, by establishing a tradition of representative government, in the region, and freeing the people of Iraq from cruel despotism. What remains of the Iraq war, is cleaning up the mess and restoring some stability, which is difficult, but obligatory.

A description of the Muslim enemies of the USA, as "terrorists," has been ridiculed as alluding merely to a tactic of war, rather than identifying a specific enemy. As I have described, identifying the specific enemy is difficult, since there is considerable reluctance to identify them as "Muslims" (inasmuch as acknowledging that many Muslims are not recognizable enemies), even though they identify themselves as Muslims, and moreover, as true Islam, and they can be persuasive in supporting this identification of themselves.

Quote from flymike91 :

about the post below this: I'm sorry if I sound incoherent, I speak the best English that I can. I read Halo's "other side of the medallion website pretty thoroughly and based my arguments on data and opinions stated on the website. I really don't know what I could say to make my posts more coherent, but its obvious to me that you didn't read what I wrote, telling me that you don't respect anyone's opinion that is against yours. At least I read and think about every post and try to make a serious reply, even if I disagree. ignoring your opponent's argument is not a healthy debate. I would rather you attack my argument rather than my character.

Ok, last chance: You sound incoherent because you're talking about your religion of peace and love and blaming Islam for not being a religion of peace, but then you forget all of those nice words and begin with the "kill the infidels" argument .

So religion is nice to talk about, but when it's time to take real decisions then religion is pointless and you can kill whoever is not on your side, uh?

Other one: You have a complete distorted view of the global problems we're talking about. Your only arguments are Islam being a religion that creates terrorists (in 99%), Hamas controlling Middle East, terrorists waiting to control the earth and attacking the US and Israel being hermed by their neighbours... Although there's some truth in all of this, your view is absolutely distorted, you seem to have no real knowledge of the problems at all and an overrated sense of danger about Islam.

So all of this make me think that your opinions are worthless, and you're not listening to the reasons ALL PEOPLE HERE are giving to you

Anyway... do it at your own, I will have a nice time reading your jokes (because if I take you seriously I would be very disappointed with the human being )

Quote from flymike91 :

I think Israel has more than enough to be paranoid about with every surrounding country circling for the kill. I mispoke before. Saddam had ties to the Taliban and Al-qaeda in Afghanistan and was a supporter of state sponsored terrorism. So while Iraq was not under Taliban rule, Saddam Hussein was equivalent or perhaps even worse. I read that from here

Great, now you're quoting from WND.com - which in turn cites FOX News as a source! You sure know how to pick 'em. Those two necon propaganda factories are about as "fair and balanced" as a seesaw with two fat kids at one end. What next - an op-ed piece from Bill O'Reilly?

Saddam did not have ties to the Taliban or al-Qaeda - as a paranoid dictator he saw extremism of any form as a potential threat to his reign and simply did not tolerate extremist behaviour.

As for Israel, it's own behaviour simply needs to improve. It can't keep simultaneously playing both the victim card and the aggressor card. The US can't keep blindly supporting Israel as it launches airstrikes on civilian neighbourhoods - effectingly lowering themselves to the level of indiscriminate Palestinian rocket attacks & suicide bombs - and still claim the moral high ground. Simply going by all the UN Resolutions regarding the treatment of Palestine that Israel has ignored and the US has vetoed, the single biggest obstacle to peace since 1948 has been Israel and America. The US was all for waving UN Resolutions around in the run-up to the Iraq invasion - where are they when Israel ignores resolution after resolution? Sending them money and weapons in full knowledge of how they will be used.

Quote :

It is true the war has been handled badly, the biggest problem was lack of communication of the goals we set in the middle east. Now is not the time to pull out, though. Iraq's democracy to far too shaky to simply leave. What we need to do is support it from the background and put constant pressure on muslim states to reform to provide a system that provides the same rights we enjoy in the western world including education and civil rights. These things may not come without a fight because there are Jihadist groups from western europe to Indonesia who would fight to the death to prevent that, but the question is: is it worth fighting for?

Real democracy & freedom is always worth fighting for - but it's not always right to start a fight just because you can, or think you should. That's the problem people have with the US's handling of Iraq: it was not a necessary step to take. It was not justifiable by any of the supposed reasons given by the Whitehouse (which seemed to change with the wind). It has not been handled honestly or competently by anyone since the beginning.

Quote :

One of the best things we can do is amplify the voices of the moderate muslims and silence the voices of the extremists. Silencing them will be difficult because of their enormous influence in uneducated communities.

Ironic & tragic, considering the Islamic Middle East was once the most educated & tolerant region on the planet, especially during Europe's Dark Ages. One vitally important thing the West in general, and the US in particular, can do to help matters is let individual nations sort out their own internal affairs and not preach to other nations about peace & democracy while holding a gun to their neighbours' heads! Oh, and perhaps large powerful countries should stop installing and supporting people like Saddam in the first place. I don't suppose WND.com or FOX Noise have any articles detailing the long, close & lethal (for the Iranians) relationship between President Reagan, Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam Hussein do they?

Quote :

Option 2 is just to drop it and leave. From what I hear from you guys, the middle east was utopia of peace and understanding before the US invasion.

Ridiculous. I've read nothing of the sort in this thread. Just because people have a problem with how things are now, it doesn't logically follow that we think things were awesome before.

Noone would have been foolish enough to think the Mid East was a utopia pre-US occupation, especially Afghanistan & Iraq. People were wary of the Taliban long before 9/11 and I don't think anyone my age could forget the 1991 Gulf War, after which - for some still unknown reason - Bush the 1st vacated Iraq, leaving Saddam to continue his oppression and even to ramp it up considerably, especially against rebels to whom Bush I had pledged support - support which he withdrew at the last moment, leaving them to the mercy of Saddam's security forces and the hell of Abu Ghraib.