@no-passing: I don't think this should be enforced blindly. There's certain situations where it's better that mid-race joiners pass stragglers then be forced to stay behind them. If they're not allowed to pass any cars, then they're just one more car that might interfere with the leaders.

When I join mid-race, I try to stay as close to the main pack and as far away from getting lapped by the race leaders as possible. This usually means I pass people who are having a hard time controlling their car.

There does appear to be some resistance to either the basic premise or the extent of the rule of midrace joining on CTRA servers. I'm not sure why this is, because the rule is very explicit. I've noted that people overtake slower cars and then require them to pick a good moment to retake their position. Sometimes they even expect them to fight for it. This invariably brings them into direct conflict with the CTRA admins.

Midrace joiners have fresher tyres and are very often much faster than some of the race's stragglers. It's irrelevent. They do not gain track rights by being quicker. They are still midrace joiners and cannot attain any track rights at all. Our rule is our rule and if it is not respected, penalties will be incurred.

If you're in a bad track position, you're responsible for that. You had your choice of moments to exit the pits and you picked poorly. Give yourself a drive-thru and exit the pits in a better position. Get out of the way of the ongoing race. If you can't, then get off the track.

CTRA admins enforce none of the rules blindly. Far from it. That said, there is little sympathy for drivers who read and accept our rules but make a conscious decision to pick which of them they will abide by.

Quote from SamH :

That said, there is little sympathy for drivers who read and accept our rules but make a conscious decision to pick which of them they will abide by.

This sounds oddly familiar... Where have I heard this before....? Oh yeah... that dang local cop who pulled me over twice in one week for no front license plate. grrrr..... I guess I like breaking rules. Feel free to revoke my copper license!

I'm missing something? I'm a CTRA admin talking about enforcing rules. Are you saying that you won't abide by the rules in CTRA servers so revoke your licence? What?

It was a joke... calm down... this world is too serious!

I agree. Mainly because if this rule is enforced strictly as Sam says, then it's near impossible to join mid-race without either catching up to the car in front of you or having someone catch up to you unless the track is sufficiently long.

There are advantages and disadvantages to midace joining being allowed. Our system allows you to midrace join, but under strict conditions. Most people are able to comply with the rules and issues don't always arise.

Midrace joining has been allowed on most public servers since the earliest days. That's the nature of pickup racing. We decided to make some use out of it, and we allow people to qualify. On short tracks, I think it's a wise decision not to even bother midrace joining until the last lap, if at all. However, arbitrarily disallowing it will result in lower server populations and we don't want that.

We won't be disabling midrace joining because some people don't/won't adhere to the rules specifically referring to it. We also won't stop all racing because some people can't help wrecking. We'll deal with all rule breaches on a case-by-case basis.

There are (or can be) penalties for ignoring regular blue flags, just as with any breaches of CTRA's rules. We apply fairly typical racing regulations to normally lapped cars. They must yield appropriately once the car behind is close enough to do so, and presents itself for a pass. They should drive predictably, preferably on the racing line if appropriate. They can either ease off on a straight, slow early and predictably for a corner or go wide through, just as with most typical RL racing. Unlike waved blues, normally blue flagged/lapped cars are permitted to unlap themselves if given the opportunity to do so.

Quote from SamH :

There are advantages and disadvantages to midace joining being allowed. Our system allows you to midrace join, but under strict conditions. Most people are able to comply with the rules and issues don't always arise.

Midrace joining has been allowed on most public servers since the earliest days. That's the nature of pickup racing. We decided to make some use out of it, and we allow people to qualify. On short tracks, I think it's a wise decision not to even bother midrace joining until the last lap, if at all. However, arbitrarily disallowing it will result in lower server populations and we don't want that.

We won't be disabling midrace joining because some people don't/won't adhere to the rules specifically referring to it. We also won't stop all racing because some people can't help wrecking. We'll deal with all rule breaches on a case-by-case basis.

The problem with the current way the CTRA mid-race is implemented is that it's easy to bypass the "once per race" restriction by rejoining the server. On busy tracks like fe1 and so3 sometimes it ends up being a constant cycle of
- join midrace
- crash
- pit
- leave server
- join server
- rinse & repeat

Perhaps if the x-system remembered who has already joined, even if they leave the server, so that they can't rejoin twice a lap.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

The problem with the current way the CTRA mid-race is implemented is that it's easy to bypass the "once per race" restriction by rejoining the server. On busy tracks like fe1 and so3 sometimes it ends up being a constant cycle of
- join midrace
- crash
- pit
- leave server
- join server
- rinse & repeat

Perhaps if the x-system remembered who has already joined, even if they leave the server, so that they can't rejoin twice a lap.

Whilst that would be a good idea under the circumstances you mention, unfortunately it's not the only circumstances under which you are deemed to be joining the race by the system. eg go to garage and forget to set the fuel level correctly for the race, pit and remember you didn't do it before actually driving out of the pits, go back to garage to correct your mistake and when you then go to join you get: "you may not join - car is being repaired" popping up. Unless there is something like being able to detect someone actually exiting the pits, then what you suggest can be problematic.

Personally I wouldn't allow mid race joins, but I accept that the decision has been made to do so. It also seems apparent that there are people that can only seem to think about themselves and just don't want to have to be patient etc when it's their turn to be a mid race joiner. No surprises that these are very often the people that complain the loudest about others who get in their way as mid race joiners. There also seems to be a strong belief that "being quick" makes them immune from having to adhere to any rules or racing etiquette in general, (in LFS in general - not CTRA specifically).

Unfortunately much as I enjoy LFS I do get tired at times at the (inevitable) fact that because there is no real danger associated with the racing that the definition of "clean" racing is far closer to that to be found in stock car racing than would ever be found on a real track. There is far too much contact and barging going on IMO and its mostly seemingly accepted too. If I had the money and the time I would love to host a server where every single physical contact was subject to scrutiny with the potential to become the subject of a "stewards enquiry" as would often be the case IRL.

Quote from gezmoor :

Whilst that would be a good idea under the circumstances you mention, unfortunately it's not the only circumstances under which you are deemed to be joining the race by the system. eg go to garage and forget to set the fuel level correctly for the race, pit and remember you didn't do it before actually driving out of the pits, go back to garage to correct your mistake and when you then go to join you get: "you may not join - car is being repaired" popping up.

If you pit or spec for any reason and don't make it back to the race track before the next restart (even if you pit from the start grid to adjust fuel) it's your own fault and you wait for the next time you may join, whether that's midrace or the next race. There's nothing more to it than that.

Quote from gezmoor :

Unless there is something like being able to detect someone actually exiting the pits, then what you suggest can be problematic.

It's quite simple to keep track of players leaving the track to spec, pit or leave and rejoin the server/track. InSim provides all the relevant info required. The system works fine as it is, all that needs to be added for my suggestion to work is that once you get the message "you may not join - car is being repaired" leaving the server and then coming back would not clear that status.

I agree with NAI about the nuisance of this system circumvention. The way the system works at the moment, when you leave the server your session is over. When you rejoin, a new session is created. It's not impossible to code around it, but it would require some changes that would need a bit of testing. Server and racer sessions are the two core cyclic aspects of the X-System. It's not a 2-minute job to address this, basically, but I can see a way to do it. If I'm presented with a window of time that would be needed, I could definitely implement it and it would stop the cycle.

Two edged sword for me, on the one hand you have drivers that keep entering into the server because they are crashing.

On the other side you have dumb dumbs like me who use the wrong setup/fuel/ ect. and need to pit to adjust. If I join the server the first thing I usually have to do as well is adjust my setup in which I usually end up adjusting 3-5 times during my midrace session so I am ready for the race next time around.

I do agree there is a problem with the crashers, but in dealing with them you hamper people's ability to adjust setups and tweak. I don't know of a better solution yet though.

I hope I didn't come across as implying that the x-system is a 2-min job, it's not what I was saying at all. Merely that conceptually the solution is simple, but considering the scope and complexity of the x-system, the design/implementation may not be

Dunno, to me one midrace join per race is sufficient. I don't think CTRA races are long enough to serve as a setup test, especially if you join midrace (several times). How much useful feedback can you get doing one or two laps at a time with cold tyres

Nooo, not at all. It's just that the way the X-System is built, what might appear to be a simple modification, to prevent leaving/returning drivers race again in the current race, unfortunately isn't so simple. It ought to be as simple as swapping a spark plug, but it's unfortunately about as simple as swapping a crankshaft

There are a lot of changes waiting to be implemented with the X-System, but at the moment, we have different priorities. We'll feed in what changes we can, as and when we can

Just a suggestion:
AFAIK its common on cruiseservers that you may only pit without penalty if your car is parked in a garage.
If you could check if someone parked in garage area before "shift-p" he should be allowed to rejoin. That way it would be possible to change/modify setups/cars without rejoining the server. Atm its a pain to adjust a setup on ctra servers.

It would be great if lfs would allow "pit in" only in garage - on track only spectate.

Quote from -Willi- :

Just a suggestion:
AFAIK its common on cruiseservers that you may only pit without penalty if your car is parked in a garage.
If you could check if someone parked in garage area before "shift-p" he should be allowed to rejoin. That way it would be possible to change/modify setups/cars without rejoining the server. Atm its a pain to adjust a setup on ctra servers.

It would be great if lfs would allow "pit in" only in garage - on track only spectate.

Now thats a good idea

+2 from me

Quote from J@tko :

Now thats a good idea

+2 from me

It'll still be quicker to leave and rejoin rather than doing a 2minute odd lap then pitting again.

Quote from Bean0 :

It'll still be quicker to leave and rejoin rather than doing a 2minute odd lap then pitting again.

I mean that hopefully they can implement the 'no leave and rejoin rule' too.

Quote from -Willi- :

Just a suggestion:
AFAIK its common on cruiseservers that you may only pit without penalty if your car is parked in a garage.
If you could check if someone parked in garage area before "shift-p" he should be allowed to rejoin. That way it would be possible to change/modify setups/cars without rejoining the server. Atm its a pain to adjust a setup on ctra servers.

It would be great if lfs would allow "pit in" only in garage - on track only spectate.

I like that idea, it prevents people from crashing and leaving the server to rejoin, and I still get to putz with my setups!

Ahh where would we be if the community didn't help and contribute =) No, you don't have to answer that =)

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

Ahh where would we be if the community didn't help and contribute =) No, you don't have to answer that =)

some place somewhere without one of those wooden stick thingies.. oh you know what I mean !