Soon after I installed the new test patch (X30) I realized some changes at the feedback.
I forgot that I had set the FF step num @ 128 in the cfg.txt and the new patch’s cfg.txt replaced the old one, so back to default with 256 ffsteps.
I don’t remember since which patch the 256ffsteps value became default, so some of you might have not spotted the difference.

But my question is.
Why I feel in 128FFsteps mode the force feedback more alive and crisp? Why I feel better the bumps, the curbs and all kind of forces?

Note that I use a G25 with 720degrees 100% feedback strength from the driver and 65% at LFS
So the hardware should not be a problem… the drivers are fine and my PC & OS has changed entirely from the last time I experienced the same strange feeling in 256FF steps mode.

It should not make a difference, both 128 and 256 are far beyond what your wheel can actually make you feel. 16 is already more than the G25 delivers.

If you run the GTR cars with 65% strength in LFS, you're basically having binary FF, its on or off, unless you run 1 or 2 degrees caster. With 6 degrees caster you only need 20% in LFS in order to occasionally max out the force feedback!

FF steps doesn't define how many FF strength levels are used, though. As far as I understand, it defines how much the internal assigned torque value must change before a new command is issued to the FF motors. So in the end it *does* somewhat define how many FF levels there are, but there's still a difference between the hardware trying to give full 256 variations or if it discards any data that wouldn't change the FF level because it is only set to 16 or so. Maybe there are only 16 different torque values the motors can generate, but it still makes a large difference how the software tries to use these values.

I agree that having FF steps on 256 (or too high in general) can lead to decreased FF feeling, as the motors are updated for even the smallest changes which then cancel each other out due to the motor lag.

hmm it could be an esplanation.

To me 256 -> 128 make a huge difference in FF… I do not know if it is just me. But I clearly find 128 better…
in what mode do you run?
Do you want to test it and say your impressions?

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

If you run the GTR cars with 65% strength in LFS, you're basically having binary FF, its on or off, unless you run 1 or 2 degrees caster. With 6 degrees caster you only need 20% in LFS in order to occasionally max out the force feedback!

I never felt that on or off feeling all that time been in 128 FFstep mode...

After a more detailed search (i did a search before this thread anyway) Found some of your posts Android saying that you couldn't find many differenced between 128 and 256.

Some say that it is smoother @ 256 and i confirm that. But it is smoother in general and that doesn’t give me nice sharp feel when going over some curbs or road bumps.

I put it at 16 for todays driving and it felt just the same as whatever it was out of the box..

The minimum FF steps LFS allows is 64 :shhh:

If you can't find any difference between 64 and 128/256,Niels, then something isn't right with your hands

Maybe that's why you like rfactor? (jk)

Interesting stuff

I think there is quite a logical explanation to the crisp feel at 128 vs 256 FF levels. Look at it as audio as 8bit vs 16bit. A sinewave would be more smooth at a higher bitrate but becomes more like a sawtooth when lowering the bitrate and eventually turns into a squarewave when going even further. The rattle you get from a sawtooth is much more noticable then a perfect sinewave, though the sinewave is more accurate. I don't know if the curb's tiles are moddled defined enough to generate something similar to real life, maybe it IS too smooth thus causing a numb feel while the sawtooth effect would feel more like a real curb. But also those are quite different from each other in RL, maybe LFS get's it quite right and you just prefer the more raw feel of 128 levels.

Niels, the probably easiest way to notice a difference is taking the RB4 with RACE_S set on Fern Bay and driving in the grass strips with about 30-40km/h.

With 256 there will be lots of little fine rumbles, while with 64 it will feel more "spiky". Kinda hard to describe, but just try switching between 64 and 256 mode a few times and you'll notice it. For reference, I'm using 50% FF in LFS and 105% in the profiler.

Quote from AndroidXP :

[...] For reference, I'm using 50% FF in LFS and 105% in the profiler.

I see you both have high profiler force and lower ingame force. I always find it more logical the other way around. I like to use 100 ingame and from there you turn the "volume knob", play with the profiler. Just as a cd-player (LFS) thats best-off playing at it's full native potential (100) to the Amplifier (profiler) to prevent signal loss.

In the case of FF wheels i doubt theres any loss of signal, but it could be it's different in some ways. Don't know what the whole point is though, but i find it interesting afterall.

What you don't consider is that the Logitech profiler likes to mess around and dampen the forces if it is not at about 101-105%. If you set the profiler strength to 100% or below, it will dampen the forces around the centre steering area in order to prevent oscillation. On the other hand, if you put it to 150% it will exaggerate even the smallest forces around the center, causing the wheel to violently shake even from the slight left-right wiggle the engine vibration causes.

Quote from AndroidXP :

What you don't consider is that the Logitech profiler likes to mess around and dampen the forces if it is not at about 101-105%. If you set the profiler strength to 100% or below, it will dampen the forces around the centre steering area in order to prevent oscillation. On the other hand, if you put it to 150% it will exaggerate even the smallest forces around the center, causing the wheel to violently shake even from the slight left-right wiggle the engine vibration causes.

Thats excellent information, did not know that!

Quote from BruTaLysT :

I think there is quite a logical explanation to the crisp feel at 128 vs 256 FF levels. Look at it as audio as 8bit vs 16bit. A sinewave would be more smooth at a higher bitrate but becomes more like a sawtooth when lowering the bitrate and eventually turns into a squarewave when going even further. The rattle you get from a sawtooth is much more noticable then a perfect sinewave, though the sinewave is more accurate.

Even if LFS's force feedback isn't directly related with the sound format example you gave, I think the general meaning might be spot on for my case....

I have used 256 steps since I found the setting years back. I just find it far more informative and subtle in the FF it gives.

The LFS FF steps have NOTHING to do with the force levels that can be output by the wheel. The LFS steps are used to determine when the force sent to the wheel needs to change. So with 64 steps the forces on the front wheels has to change more before the FF is updated. This is why 64 steps will feel more stepy/spiky as other have said.

I notice the difference more with my G25 than I did with my DFP though.

Has anybody tried 512 steps or is that overkill for current hardware?

LFS limits the ff step values to 64 - 256.

Quote from AndroidXP :

LFS limits the ff step values to 64 - 256.

Are you sure? 256 is the upper limit but I've gone below 64 in the past and noticed it. I think I've tried 4 before and it worked. Pehaps the lower limit was added more recently.

I was trying to get lower than 64 and couldn't
I did set the FFstep value at 16 and the next time I open the cfg.txt it always returns to 64.


maybe that changed recently so you haven’t noticed it

Last time I played with that setting was back in 0.3 days. The lower limit probably got added whenever the default value was changed from 128 to 256.

My only problem is it feels better for me at 128 FF steps but as I see it is only me

Quote from kaynd :

My only problem is it feels better for me at 128 FF steps but as I see it is only me

Use what you feel happy with. Some wheels react differnt to others

i found that ff step num is some kind of damping.

experimented a bit and find out, that theese settings works more real than any others:

for dfp driving force pro
900 degrees of rotation

ffstepnum: 64
lfs ff strenght 40

logitech overall ff strenght 40
dampers 0
springs 0
centering spring: unchecked and 0

Indeed it acts like damping when the amount of feedback steps exceeds the wheel’s capabilities.
When I had the DFP I had also strength values that low. (something like 35% from the driver and 75% from the game) and the FF step value lower (not 64 though)

Now since about 8 months ago, I am using a G25 and I found out that there is no much difference between 128-256 ffsteps regarding the feedback crispness from the bumps, curbs etc.
(yeah… I have changed my mind some time after this thread and maybe I wouldn't notice the difference in the first place, if the default FF step num hadn't chance from 128 to 256 back then at patch U days)
I also understand that, with that high feedback force I am using (100% drivers & 65% in game), I don’t have accurate feedback at all… just clipping and on-off forces when going over bumps…
But in that way I have enough wheel “weight” around the center and that helps me feel the car’s dampers easier while changing directions. (Really useful in fine tuning the suspension)


Thanks for the reply, but as you can understand it's difficult to change settings that you have got used to, even if they might theoretically be more realistic.
Since the feedback hardware that recent wheels have is far away from produsing realy convincing forces, comparing to a real car's wheel, what setting values feel right is a subjective matter.

Another discovery?
logitech set to value somwhere around 70-80% improves bumps for dfp,
or its just my personal feeling( xfg so2 ffstep num 64 logitech 70% lfs 50%

Ι think that below the 100% force strength value,the driver damps the feedback "messages".
Try 100% from the drivers and 20-40% in game