Quote from blackbird04217 :

Ian - being here for 4 years on a game for $50usd (give or take according to exchange rate) is quite a steal. I've actually bought hi-res skins to support the devs further as my soul feels bad for "stealing" LFS. (I have bought my license and all the good stuff but the enjoyment I have got out of it has made that seem very close to free. Almost pennies per month).

The only time I've ever charged for development, is when a client has come to me directly and said "can you code me..........". It was part of $day_job. Everything else I've coded, since I was 8 years old, has been for free.. trying to tell me that $50 (or the equiv.) is a steal means sweet FA to me when I've worked my bollox off for months or whatever and released XYZ for free

I'm very much an open-source man.. my servers run FreeBSD adn have done for the past 7 years, that software didn't cost me a penny, but has enabled me to earn some cash in the process.. prices mean nothing.. my regret now is that I feel I may as well have just pissed it up the wall in a pub somewhere.

Quote :

As far as development, I totally agree that they may be working on things in the back ground. There is a difference from what they are working on and testing, and what we see - at least content wise I am sure. As far as the language support I was thinking its on of the better things to come to LFS, a truly global game if you will. Sure there are bugs, the devs know about the GTRs with road interiors, and they know about the barriers and such. Some of these (the barriers) aren't as simple as adding a bit of code to fix, its possible they know the issue and need to redo an entire section and it takes time to get around to it. However, that being said I don't feel its the largest problem, why are you racing into the barriers? Thats not the fast way around the track :P Yes it happens occasionally that you get to close.

[ snip ]

But these bugs have been in there since the day I started playing LFS, over 4 years ago! That's simply just unacceptable. It's one thing knowing about something, it's an entirely different matter dealing with it.

A lot of what I do revolves around security and servers. No software is perfect.. so from time to time, there are patches I need to install to fix security issues. I don't just the software / company so much on what / number of issues they have but on their resolution activity. 1 security hole ignored for 2 years is by far worse than 10 holes patched within 24 hours.

Granted, we're not talking about security here with LFS, but I hope the above seems relevant. If LFS only had 1 bug (lets take the collision detection for an example) that so far hasn't been fixed in at least 4 years, that's far worse than company XYZ who manage to patch 10 bugs within 6 months (just example figures).



Regards,

Ian

Quote from blackbird04217 :

Used to it or not after awhile it will take a draining effect on their morale, and wouldn't be surprised if this is starting to make LFS feel like a job to them rather than some fun.

[ snip ]

I damn well hope it does! This is _the_ problem. LFS is _not_ a hobby / "something to do for fun".. it's a commercial enterprise.. they're charging for their product. Once you do that, it _is_ a job and no longer "for fun".

I used to code web sites for fun. The moment I started charging for sites and turning it into a business, was the day I had an obligation to my customers to perform a certain way (ie: quality and speed).

The sooner the devs, and 90% of the community realise that, the better. We might, just might, see some forward progress instead of side stepping and dancing around in stupid circles.



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Ian.H :

Granted, we're not talking about security here with LFS, but I hope the above seems relevant. If LFS only had 1 bug (lets take the collision detection for an example) that so far hasn't been fixed in at least 4 years, that's far worse than company XYZ who manage to patch 10 bugs within 6 months (just example figures).

Where as I totally see your point I also see the 80/20 rule. It takes 20% of the effort for the first 80% and 80% of the effort for the last 20%. I'm not saying the bug is great, but your statement of the above isn't true to me. (Security it may stand true as people would know to break in and spread the news, thats quite different.) 10 small bugs in 24hrs may not be as much as 1 giant bug thats been there for 4 years... Except your missing the point of they are still developing and working on it... About your money, you made the choice to spend it (4yrs ago?) so how is that a bad deal if your still even active 1 day a month in LFS, you're certainly more that that active on the forums so I really can't see a money complaint.

Although I don't necessarily agree with his wording of the problem, I do agree with Ian. It's not that I'm not happy with LFS... it's just that if I think realistically I feel that there might never be a S3, or even a final version of S2.

I have plenty of other games to play and hobbies to practice, and even without playing LFS much I still enjoy reading the forums. so that's not a problem, but I've definitely lost my initial hopefulness of a more complete package in the future.

Adding new languages is fine, but it still feels as a second, or even third priority job to me; doing touch-ups to a final product before it's shipped. However, LFS is not a finished product, and although I have no business in the overall development process - It feels like the list of priorities is in the wrong order.

I'm not saying this as a rant or whine on the developers, because for all I know they could be working hard behind the scenes... and heck, I know they've heard the same story over and over again it's just that it seems as if the game development itself (not the presentation, including languages) has come to a halt.

when has anyone ever bought anything that gets updated for free? (not including antivirus software or windows to keep them up to date or stable)
you wouldnt expect your car to be replaced for free everytime a new model hits the market.
or a new kettle, cos now it comes with a funky light.
you dont buy something, thinking its not good but hopeing it will get better one day?

Maybe Scawen has already fixed it the collision bug in his development version of S3, with an all new physics code. The point is we don't know what's going on in the background, only what we see. But Scawen did say at one point last year that he is now managing two development threads - one for the next patch, and one for... he didn't exactly say.

It may be that that duel-development process was for patch Y only, it might be that it's just how it will be until S2 becomes final... We don't know, and I'll look forward to finding out the results.

Quote from Jertje :

Adding new languages is fine, but it still feels as a second, or even third priority job to me; doing touch-ups to a final product before it's shipped. However, LFS is not a finished product, and although I have no business in the overall development process - It feels like the list of priorities is in the wrong order.

...or you can think about it in terms of a small development team that needs to sell new licenses to stay in business. Opening up new markets when you have a reasonably stable product to sell is probably a wise business decision (especially given the gaming market in Korea and other Asian rim nations). Adding native language support for those regions makes a ton of sense and it's easy to see why it's a priority.

Quote from Ian.H :

I damn well hope it does! This is _the_ problem. LFS is _not_ a hobby / "something to do for fun".. it's a commercial enterprise.. they're charging for their product. Once you do that, it _is_ a job and no longer "for fun".

I used to code web sites for fun. The moment I started charging for sites and turning it into a business, was the day I had an obligation to my customers to perform a certain way (ie: quality and speed).

The sooner the devs, and 90% of the community realise that, the better. We might, just might, see some forward progress instead of side stepping and dancing around in stupid circles.



Regards,

Ian

See, there's the catch. While your buisness may require regulary updates im unable to see that this is the case at the devs team. Im simple unable to see any evidence that this project is dependent at any kind of regularity, may it be for qualitative, quantitative, timeframe and surely not for request/ demand related reasons. In that case, and please correct me if im wrong, we would end up with a NFS alike clone or something and we would have to pay like 50 bugs to get an updated version each year or so. Maybe the game engine is beeing used for several years and only content/ storyline has changed or maybe you'll get something entirely new that is so different that you cant really use it the way you'd prefered it once. No major patches, no new content, nothing. I prefer the way of the devs simple because it allows them to stick to their own ideas and inspirations without the need or fear for external influences, at least not to the extend like in regularly companies.

This is the way i think its beeing handled and maybe i am wrong. I dont know but lots of stuff is backing this theory up for me and so im sorry if thats all just bs im typing here. However, without actually having a clue at all im not even trying to put myself into a position that implies that i am, unlike you Ian.

There's no business in the world HAS to keep updating it's product in any way at all. The owners CHOOSE to in order to keep up with the market.

Since LFS isn't technically in the commercial sim market yet (and the fact that they don't actively promote their product and it comes with a big alpha label prove this) they have nobody to keep up with. And in terms of driving models, even if they were selling it, it's still pretty much the only thing out there in terms of driving quality.

It's an indie product, therefor completely in the hands of the independant company making it. They never forced you to buy it, they're not forcing you to hand over any more money than you already chose to. They're not under any publisher deadlines and as such are more likely to continue developing happily rather than get so stressed that they want to pack it all in.

And if you ask me, that's far more preferable.

Quote from Dajmin :

There's no business in the world HAS to keep updating it's product in any way at all. The owners CHOOSE to in order to keep up with the market.

Since LFS isn't technically in the commercial sim market yet (and the fact that they don't actively promote their product and it comes with a big alpha label prove this) they have nobody to keep up with. And in terms of driving models, even if they were selling it, it's still pretty much the only thing out there in terms of driving quality.

Once you hang a price tag on a product, it's commercial. Just because LFS is _still_ in fsckin alpha state, doesn't change that fact. Whether you want to accept that is another issue entirely, however.

It's definitely not the "only thing out there". Damn, even rF with a good physics man behind data can achieve some very good results (look at Niels as one example). LFS is nothing more than a limited arcade racer with half decent tyre physics at present.

Quote :

It's an indie product, therefor completely in the hands of the independant company making it. They never forced you to buy it, they're not forcing you to hand over any more money than you already chose to. They're not under any publisher deadlines and as such are more likely to continue developing happily rather than get so stressed that they want to pack it all in.

And if you ask me, that's far more preferable.

So they keep raking in the cash and _if_ we're lucky, we _may_ actually see the end product we paid for, S2 final. Is this what you're saying? that if they decide 'bollox, no more' that that's ok? I bought S2 final.. granted, I picked it up early and have followed it's development, but the net result is that everyone who's paid for S2 has paid for the _final_ product, not a half-arsed effort at which it is right now.



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Victor :

I'm getting a bit bored of your continual cynical replies that serve no purpose other than to vent your own frustration with either LFS or something else we don't know about.
All you do is nag - nothing ever seems good enough for you. I wouldn't mind if you'd cut back on the nagging.

THANK YOU.

It had to be said sooner or later.

Unfortunately it doesn't seem to have got through to IanH that it would be appreciated if he would STFU for once (and hopefully forever)

Quote from Ian.H :

So they keep raking in the cash and _if_ we're lucky, we _may_ actually see the end product we paid for, S2 final.

Don't know about you, but when I purchased LFS is was an ALPHA product, therefore i was buying an incomplete game. Correct me if I'm wrong here like, but I knew (like you're self) that the product was incomplete.


I'm actually tempted to post a picture containg the following items....Pram and Toys, because this is what it sounds like to me.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

Don't know about you, but when I purchased LFS is was an ALPHA product, therefore i was buying an incomplete game. Correct me if I'm wrong here like, but I knew (like you're self) that the product was incomplete.

So you, like me, "invested early".. as I said, the net result is the same, we've paid to have the complete S2 product (else they'd be charging for patches).. just because we decided to pay early makes no difference whatsoever, but S2 final isn't coming any time soon.. fsck, S2 BETA ain't coming any time soon!

Quote :

I'm actually tempted to post a picture containg the following items....Pram and Toys, because this is what it sounds like to me.

Post what you like.. back, water, ducks will instantly spring to mind



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Ian.H :

So you, like me, "invested early".. as I said, the net result is the same, we've paid to have the complete S2 product (else they'd be charging for patches).. just because we decided to pay early makes no difference whatsoever, but S2 final isn't coming any time soon.. fsck, S2 BETA ain't coming any time soon!

So leave, erase it from you're hard drive and walk away.

If you have bad service at a restaurant, do you go back day after day and complain, If a plumber constantly overcharges and does a half baked job do you call him up again.

Of course you don't, so what I fail to understand is that if you are that unhappy about LFS, why are you still on the 'LFS' boards complaining about the lack of development at every chance you can.

Some people moan for a reason, others for a cause. Then you have complete and utter idiots who complain just for the sake of complaining.

I think the problem is most likely you _just_ grazed the wall, and it didnt register in the HLVC local. The web version is more restrctive. Are you using Y or testpatch Y22?

I agree to a certain point with Ian. Although I am not keen on the way he puts his thoughts down.

Bugs need to be fixed, several are from way back. They should have been fixed. The language pack is something I dont see the real need for it. I rather would have seen that the wall bug was fixed.

On viktors behave, Ian I know you mean it in a good manor but they way you are writting things down arent rearly clever. I can see Viktors point on that one.

Quote from blackbird04217 :

Where as I totally see your point I also see the 80/20 rule. It takes 20% of the effort for the first 80% and 80% of the effort for the last 20%.

I completely understand that. I can build a drivable track surface from scratch in 3DS, with AI working in ~2 hours. That includes tarmac and a grass edge (or whatever, depending on track). Completing that track to make it a _track_, not just a loop of tarmac, takes a fair bit longer and often, a lot more tedious ("planting" hundreds of trees really does get monotonous). SO I do get that rule too, but c'mon.. there's only so far that you can push that... LFS went way beyond that point 18 months ago.

Quote :

I'm not saying the bug is great, but your statement of the above isn't true to me. (Security it may stand true as people would know to break in and spread the news, thats quite different.) 10 small bugs in 24hrs may not be as much as 1 giant bug thats been there for 4 years...

Granted... it's not as serious as my security analogy, but my point remains. Even if it came down to a text editor.. if I had 2 and they both had 20 bugs, company ABC fixed 19 of theirs within 2 days and the final one within a week.. and comany XYZ fixed 5 of theirs in the first 4 days and left the remaining 16 for the next 4 years... but had added 4 extra languages to read the menus in.. which editor would you think was the better product, and which company would you think was the better company?

Quote :

Except your missing the point of they are still developing and working on it...

But they're only half working on it (or at least, that's how it seems by way of what's being released). Bugs since day 1 remain, yet new and far less important crap is added "constantly"... the priority list just doesn't make sense (and pretty sure it's not just me).

Quote :

About your money, you made the choice to spend it (4yrs ago?) so how is that a bad deal if your still even active 1 day a month in LFS, you're certainly more that that active on the forums so I really can't see a money complaint.

I can't remember the last race I had in LFS.. over the past 3 years, it's probably no more than 20 races due to it becoming stagnant and boring. Access to the forums are free, so the money consideration doesn't come into it there. It's not the point that I've paid £24 and feel hard done by.. I don't to an extent, I put that much in my car almost daily to get to and from work, it's the fact that nothing seems to be progressing forward for that. You wouldn't invest in a house if the market was static.. you may as well put it in a shoe box for 5 years later.. the £24 is nothing in monetary value, but a lot more in principle.



Regards,

Ian

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

So leave, erase it from you're hard drive and walk away.

If you have bad service at a restaurant, do you go back day after day and complain, If a plumber constantly overcharges and does a half baked job do you call him up again.

Of course you don't, so what I fail to understand is that if you are that unhappy about LFS, why are you still on the 'LFS' boards complaining about the lack of development at every chance you can.

Some people moan for a reason, others for a cause. Then you have complete and utter idiots who complain just for the sake of complaining.

I would just up and walk away, if I didn't want to be involved still.

If you pay for a hotel room for the month, and 5 days into that, faults that were reported on day one still haven't been addressed, you might take it further. That said, if you have been in the hotel before and liked it, you might just progress with the complaint and try again later and hope it was a simple glitch.

All this said, I want to enjoy LFS again like I used to... I want to be back part of dSRC in active manner rather than just being a coder / host.. but the lack of progress has killed any spark there. Damn, even 1 new (and I mean new, not regurgitated) track and a few bug fixes would probably keep me happy for a while. I don't want it all tomorrow, I do understand things take time.. but _something_ soon would be nice after waiting so long.



Regards,

Ian

I only bought the game about a year ago and I already feel I have got my money's worth by a long long way.

I (like another poster) feel slightly guilty sometimes that I paid such a small fee and get continued use of this great game.

Also for what it's worth, as an English speaker - I think it's great that more is being done to cater for other languages.

Keep up the good work!

Quote from Ian.H :

I can't remember the last race I had in LFS.. over the past 3 years, it's probably no more than 20 races due to it becoming stagnant and boring.

This sounds like a personal problem to me. There are plenty of us who have been racing that long and find new stuff to enjoy all the time.

Quote from Ian.H :

Damn, even 1 new (and I mean new, not regurgitated) track and a few bug fixes would probably keep me happy for a while. I don't want it all tomorrow, I do understand things take time.. but _something_ soon would be nice after waiting so long.

And very soon you would start moaning again about things you dont have the slightest clue about or things that are not worth moaning about. It also seems that you prefer to compare the incomparable or trying to make sense out of nonesense. Ignoring me doesn't help your case either but after all im not too keen anymore to discuss that with you in detail because you would simple ignore me again at some point, for some reason or another.

So, whatever.

Ian.H - Long waiting for updates? WTF?! You may be happy that this game is updated. Any other game - just release and then some patches with bug-fixes... If you dont like it , create your own and try make fast but quality updates .

He will write an half page - post again

why write so much i get bored reading it after i get half way through

but good things come to those who wait so something like come up sooner or later

lol rob.

Ian if you think you can do better why don't you go make a simulator that is better than lfs?

I think this is one of the first times I have actually agreed with some of Ian's points.

Before I state my view...don't get me wrong...I love LFS...I tell everyone I run into that seems remotely interested in racing sims. Hell, I even got my boss to purchase a license for each one of his kids (5 licenses).

I wrote a big long thing stating my view and quoting other's posts but didn't feel the need to post all of it because after 'proof-reading' it I found it was nothing more than me venting my frustration about the speed of development. So here's what I think it comes down to...

Those who are complaining about certain things have been around a lot longer than those who don't see the problem. Those who have been around a long time and say there is nothing wrong with it are either super fanboys or just too dense to see what the problem is. When we purchased S2 we were aware that it was work in progress, but we didn't know development would slow to a crawl. LFS is 4+ years into development and there have been improvements and advancements but not as many as a lot of us thought there would be.

As hard as it is to say...I am slowly loosing interest in LFS due to its development speed. We have been promised things and are constantly told that new things will be added, bugs will be fixed and more features will pop up...when? I'm happy with the test patches and am in no way ungrateful for the work that has been done and continues to be done but it is just taking do long to get from point 'a' to point 'b'.

LFS has turned into a huge (excuse the lack of a better expression) cock tease. We have seen screen shots with detachable body parts but that was 2+ years ago...we have seen and heard about lots of things but have yet to actually see them first hand. That's great if they are not ready for a stable release but for the sake of fairness why not release an unstable open beta so we can actually see some progress?

I'm almost torn between 2 views...I understand why LFS development is slow and respect the dev team but at the same time I paid for a product that I thought would of been complete some time ago...