They're racers, yes, but not drivers.

I think the main reasons they can be faster is firstly because they have no FFB fighting against them, so they can accurately hold the car on a curve. And secondly, they have the steering gauge to help them always know where to hold the cursor in order to take the curve at the best possible angle.

It makes me wonder how well the mouse drivers would do if that steering gauge was removed.

I prefer to think, if thats what they can do with a mouse and keyboard, imagine if they had £300 to waste on a high end wheel and took the time to learn that, they would probably be even better. No FFB is a huge disadvantage in most cars, because you can't feel whats going on, so you have to either guess, or react quickly when you see the car is losing control, you can't predict it.

Quote from Almadiel :

.....Failing that, servers should be able to disallow such control settings.

With the new versions of LFSLapper, you can disallow the mouse...and customview, etc. And "swapside", whatever that is?

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Steering Wheels and pedals should make you faster, if you are getting beaten by mouse users, then its not the controls that are the problem, its the driver.

I had the same thoughts.
It must be the lack of practice or the lack of talent if you got beaten by mouse user.

And I can't remember seeing a mouse driver finishing on a top position, driving in on of the "bigger leagues" or endurance leagues
(where it is also usually forbidden to use KB or Mouse) or in any other league I have driven over the last years.

So it's good that people who can't afford a wheel (or are disabled) can use it and get a taste of LFS.
But I also must say that you only get the real feel with a wheel and FF effects.

So mouse users are no big deal imo.

Quote from Astro [ BJRL ] :

In my humble opinion, mouse and keyboard drivers can not be considered real LFS drivers ? Or racers, for that matter.
I try to imagine them sitting in a car with a mousepad and driving the car using mouse.

Easy on the judgement, dear John.
We can`t set standards, at this present time, for what a "real" Lfs racers is

Racing with a wheel, sitting on a stool, must then be worse than racing from a cockpit, with racingchair, and so on.

View must also be taken into consideration, and a lot of other small things But I also think, that a mouse makes Lfs more a game, than a wheel does, and I would guess that keyboard and mouse steering, will be dropped, as this simulator developes.

But maby one can have the reald hardcore simulation, and a more arcadelike part, for people without wheels and pedals.

Quote from BBO@BSR :

I had the same thoughts.
It must be the lack of practice or the lack of talent if you got beaten by mouse user.

And I can't remember seeing a mouse driver finishing on a top position, driving in on of the "bigger leagues" or endurance leagues
(where it is also usually forbidden to use KB or Mouse) or in any other league I have driven over the last years.

So it's good that people who can't afford a wheel (or are disabled) can use it and get a taste of LFS.
But I also must say that you only get the real feel with a wheel and FF effects.

So mouse users are no big deal imo.

Pssst - Partyboy

Quote from alland44 :

Pssst - Partyboy

I'm not talking about Hotlaps or 3000 laps of BLackwood - XFG pickup races.
I meant real league racing

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

No FFB is a huge disadvantage in most cars, because you can't feel whats going on, so you have to either guess, or react quickly when you see the car is losing control, you can't predict it.

Sometimes, sure. But with the amount of modifying you can do to button control rates and braking force, it's entirely possible to have a completely predictable car in almost all situations and it becomes easy to tell when the car is going to slide out or something.

Quote from Dajmin :

It makes me wonder how well the mouse drivers would do if that steering gauge was removed.

The what? Back when I used to race with mouse, I thought I was reasonably competent (in the lesser powered cars anyway), and I never had that thing turned on.

But they modify the controls so that they are more like that of a steering wheel and pedals, so give them a wheel, and some time to adapt to it, and they will probably end up going faster.

Sometimes I find myself wanting a wheel, especially when racing the bigger cars like the BF1, FO8 and GTR's, because you can't realisticly compete against the top guys in those cars if you don't own a wheel with FFB.

Put it this way, to drive smoothly with my controller (playstation 2 pad) I have to work with adjustments in the fraction of a millimeter. I have about 3cm of movement to work with, steering, acceleration and braking. Then take into consideration the techniques that are not possible with those controls, throttle blipping and left foot braking, both things that can help with laptimes. I would say I have a disadvantage in comparison, but I choose not to buy a wheel for my own reasons, financial and the fact that I can't be arsed setting up a wheel everytime I feel like racing...and my chair has wheels.

I can get to the front end of the pack in those cars, but those few extra tenths that come from smooth driving and techniques like throttle blipping and left foot braking, just won't ever come.

Before S1 I used mouse. I didn't have a wheel at the time. Sadly I was much faster in the XRG at blackwood back then compared to now. Of course back then everyone had thousands of laps around blackwood in XFG/XRG so everyone was fast.

I bought an expensive wheel at one point, used it once, and never used it again. I was immediately much slower and didn't want to try to adapt to it.

Since you don't have to worry about "how much" brakes and throttle to apply, you can easily focus on your line and drive really consistently - maxing out the capabilities of your input device.

Of course when S1 came around I couldn't drive anything with the mouse (props out to anyone that can control a high power lightweight car with the mouse/kb).

Wheels/pedals allow an excellent driver to be faster in those lowered powered cars than a very good mouse user, but I suspect it also allows an average driver to be slower than an mouse user with equivalent skills. They may run the exact same lines but the mouse user will have consistency in braking.

I use exclusively a mouse in LFS, and it is not a money issue.
If I had a choice I would race with a wheel , and I thank the devs for being able to drive with a mouse - without it I would never have bought a license.

Here are the positive and negative sides from my point of view:
Positive
Easier correction (faster virtual wheel movement)
Less strength required for steering
Easy setup
Space saver and portable solution (I only have a laptop and no desk, but on the other hand I can carry my LFS rig in a backpack)
mouse accuracy - no mechanical friction or backlash added to lag
Silence - priceless, I could not use LFS with a wheel in the evenings as it would wake up my kids, flat too small
A mouse does not look like a toy - I see no way I could convince the miss that a wheel can be used by adults. And my kids are girls and too young to be of help there...
Driving with a mouse reduces addiction (because it is no so enjoyable). Don't know if it is positive though

Negative
No FFB; on/off pedals unless you use 2 axis (I get lost traing this) or strange gimmicks
Stress on hands / joints dificult to cope with in long races (above 10-20 min)
Less accuracy for small adjustments - combined with above it becomes difficult not to oversteer.
Absolutely unnatural way to steer a car (for RL drivers at least) - requires a high abstraction capacity to get enough immersion to enjoy a race.
Learning time and progress are worse I think because of the alien control - even less ways to feel what the car is up to, so you en up correcting instead of preventing unless you spend gazillion hours practicing to extract the maximum information from vision and sound only.

If I did not have to choose between my wife and a wheel, and if I had room for it, I would be driving with a wheel for sure. For the moment I try to make the best with mouse + laptop and I can assure you I can have fun & close races as well, despite some frustration.
You can check my times on LFSW, not fast but neither ridiculously slow. Powerful RWD are quite a challenge though.

Quote from Mille Sabords :

If I did not have to choose between my wife and a wheel...

Any girl/woman that would make me choose between her or something that I enjoy, would lose just for that very reason. And before anyone makes a witty remark, yes I have a wonderful girlfriend whith whom I've been together for the past 9 years

+1 for disable mouse from LFS!!!

After 1000+ laps with the wheel on my favorite combo KY2R/XFR, I tried it with the mouse when my wheel was broken, and after 5 laps I made a new PB!? :arge::thumbsdow

Remove damn mouse from simulator!

Quote from nesrulz :

After 1000+ laps with the wheel on my favorite combo KY2R/XFR, I tried it with the mouse when my wheel was broken, and after 5 laps I made a new PB!? :arge::thumbsdow

Remove damn mouse from simulator!

Remove your wheel, and give it to someone that has to use the mouse because they can't afford a wheel, they might put it to better use.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Remove your wheel, and give it to someone that has to use the mouse because they can't afford a wheel, they might put it to better use.

If you knew his racing history, you wouldn't say things like that, he's an awesome driver and he knows what's he talking about...

i own a wheel..... so what? i prefere the mouse.... is there anything wrong with that? or cant you believe that someone beat you, and so you start looking how to explain that..... get over.... some people have more fun with a wheel, others wit mouse.... me for example, lets say i just wanted to pickup a quick race and have some fun. I would use my mouse as i cant be asked to get out my wheel just so i can think that i am really driving a car when i am not..... If on the other hand i would have a league race, i would get out my wheel as it is probably going to be used for 1-2h and its worth getting out and reconnecting it etc..... So basically depends what you do, if people just do some pickup races i see no problem that they are using a mouse, as long as they enjoy it, thats ok with me...

Does it really matter what driver users what? I mean i've seen some excellent keyboard drivers beat mouse and wheel drivers. I use mouse and will continue to use one, i may in the future try the G25 wheel

Quote from Dajmin :

They're racers, yes, but not drivers.

I think the main reasons they can be faster is firstly because they have no FFB fighting against them, so they can accurately hold the car on a curve. And secondly, they have the steering gauge to help them always know where to hold the cursor in order to take the curve at the best possible angle.

It makes me wonder how well the mouse drivers would do if that steering gauge was removed.

duh :P i dont use the sterring gauge :P i cant i have to keep my eyes on the road i just put the connection list to see the cursor in the screen :P
i have a wheel too but i just can turn 90degree each side soo its crap -_-
at this point i prefer to use the mouse

@ ATC Quicksilver

Geladric, who is a great driver with the mouse, recieved two wheels as a present from our teammates, first a Logitech Vibration (which is crap) and then he got a MOMO, yes, a MOMO and he doesn't use it! He's slower with the wheel and that's the reason he doesn't use it, so don't give me that preach talk please...

+1 for remove mouse from LFS!

Quote from nesrulz :

@ ATC Quicksilver

Geladric, who is a great driver with the mouse, recieved two wheels as a present from our teammates, first a Logitech Vibration (which is crap) and then he got a MOMO, yes, a MOMO and he doesn't use it! He's slower with the wheel and that's the reason he doesn't use it, so don't give me that preach talk please...

he is slower cuz he didnt practiced enought with it

Quote from lfs-drift staff :

he is slower cuz he didnt practiced enought with it

Indeed, you can't just switch from keyboard/mouse to wheel and expect to be faster instantly. It takes some time getting used to it.

If something should be removed from LFS, then that should be button clutch!

Yes he is slower because he has played with a mouse so much that its become second nature to him. I know his racing history, and I still say things like that, because it makes no difference. I don't want LFS to become a game where the haves get a huge advantage, and the have nots are stuck at the back, just because they can't afford the best equipment, thats what real motorsport is like, and its an aspect that shouldn't be simulated in my opinion.