Quote from Mysho :

Well, i am not allowed to race with you, your obligation is to let me pass easily and this just hasn't been done. If you think i didn't have enough speed, how the hell could i got to your ass as near as i was.
My times were as fast as yours because i really felt i am trapped behind you.

This was explained in the first post, maybe you should go back and read it or you can watch the replay... Look for the #10 car.

Quote from Mysho :

Anyway, i am not angry, i am not annoyed, just writting my point of view. So maybe next race not blue flag lapping fighting with you, but regural fight for a pos.

If you would have said it like this the first time you would have gotten a different response. And yeah, I hope next round we're on the lead lap too because that was two boring stints...

Quote from Who Cares :

Point taken mate, and no excuses needed... clearly a lag issue then... so no worries...

I have to say that is one of the strangest lag incidents I've seen.

Quote from rcpilot :

This is pretty ridiculous. 2nd time this season I've been knocked off track into the kitty litter by someone I wasn't racing against. This time it took ~2 minutes for the push car to even start responding + the associated penalties. Our race completely destroyed because I happened to be in position to get knocked off track by a car snap spinning across the road. The other two cars can just drive out of the gravel but instead we get to lose mondo time (or in this case a lap) waiting for the push car and then get a penalty on top of that? It doesn't seem fair at all to have an uberharsh penalty that can only be applied to one car, besides not having considerations in the rule for why you ended up in that gravel trap in the first place.

That is the second time that has happened this season to us and why we didn't mention it before (probably because we came back to finish 4th the last time) I don't know. In all honesty I would like to see some kind of compensation, though I know we probably won't, because that rule is borderline communist (joke, but it's close ) and it's effected this team twice this season.

Quote from nmanley :

I feel your pain. I wonder why in the heck Scawen and crew doesn't find glitches like the XRR sand trap problem and FIX them! I wonder if they even really know about it as on each upgrade everyone seems to bitch about interiors and sounds rather than physics.

No, they shouldn't fix this glitch, they should make it so that each GTR gets stuck in the sand - as would happen in real life.

Quote from niall09 :

No, they shouldn't fix this glitch, they should make it so that each GTR gets stuck in the sand - as would happen in real life.

Agreed.

Quote from BigTime :

This was explained in the first post, maybe you should go back and read it or you can watch the replay... Look for the #10 car.

1st picture - downforce i was talking about
2nd picture - so i have chosen more room to not crash because of you
3rd picture - detto
4th picture - had to brake hardly, because again you slowed me down
5th picture - was showing you my nose all straight
6th picture - this is what i got for that, again hardly braking and blocking tyres because of you

Sorry, but i should nothing, i just hope you will be more gentle in the next race.
I will tell you again, blue flag is not about racing a car which is four laps down.

Quote from Mysho :

1st picture - downforce i was talking about.

That was the first lap in question. After this corner you fell back until the next lap.

Quote from Mysho :

2nd picture - so i have chosen more room to not crash because of you.

That's more than enough room to leave.

Quote from Mysho :

3rd picture - detto
4th picture - had to brake hardly, because again you slowed me down

We were both running faster the car ahead of us... As you can see in both pictures, I was closing in and being slowed as well.

Quote from Mysho :

5th picture - was showing you my nose all straight.

I personally feel that if you would have hit the chicane better you could have drafted me down the straight and made an easy pass. Further more you where on the borderline (I think you had it personally) of being close enough to draft by... This move down the straight made me think you where slotting in line so we could overtake the car ahead, as I've said in 2 other post.

Quote from Mysho :

6th picture - this is what i got for that, again hardly braking and blocking tyres because of you.

You lost a lot of time with that move (although I don't know how because you came all the way back over to the perfered line) and I overtook the car ahead in the next turn. If you would have stayed on the track one more lap I would have let you by once we overtook the slower car.

I've explained this till I'm blue in the face so this is my last post referring to this incident.

Quote from BigTime :

That is the second time that has happened this season to us and why we didn't mention it before (probably because we came back to finish 4th the last time) I don't know. In all honesty I would like to see some kind of compensation, though I know we probably won't, because that rule is borderline communist (joke, but it's close ) and it's effected this team twice this season.

There seems to be a disconcerting lack of respect for car-to-car racing in this series (lfs in general actually). 90% of the time there is little to no consequence for banging into another car, and I believe people just don't care because of it.

In its denfense, iRacing's damage model and iRating systems seem to be the biggest pluses for the sim. People have to respect the car's around them in iRacing if they want to finish a race.

You chose the XRR knowing its strengths & weaknesses, and the IGTC rules; although, you might have underestimated some of the other teams' proclivity towards disaster (). In the FZR/FXR's denfense, the XRR has won a very high % of the races, granted yours is a very good team fielding the car. I wouldn't be opposed to the changing of the pentalty if the option to re-evaluate each of the teams' cars was given.

So +1 for reducing/changing the sand-trap pentalty rule.

Quote from niall09 :

No, they shouldn't fix this glitch, they should make it so that each GTR gets stuck in the sand - as would happen in real life.

There people go again....thinking REAL life. Get a sponsor and go racing REAL life. I just want to have FUN on my COMPUTER!

Quote from BigTime :

I've explained this till I'm blue in the face so this is my last post referring to this incident.

Ok, next time i will wait untill you'll pass all the field and then maybe you will make me a little place for overtake.. man! you can't be serious.

I personally feel the truth on my side, which screens and replay affirmed to.

Now to finish this disccusion and hope for a clean race for both our teams

Cya at Kyoto in a new cockpit for you, XRR guys

Quote from srdsprinter :

You chose the XRR knowing its strengths & weaknesses, and the IGTC rules; although, you might have underestimated some of the other teams' proclivity towards disaster (). In the FZR/FXR's denfense, the XRR has won a very high % of the races, granted yours is a very good team fielding the car. I wouldn't be opposed to the changing of the pentalty if the option to re-evaluate each of the teams' cars was given.

Well that's a very good point. I personally feel that the XRR is the best car to stint (though it's not much quicker overall I feel that it stays more consistant over the course of a hour) and that's why I like it. It does lack a little on the hotlap department so in all honesty I would be happy with just 2 poles for the season.

In regards to the penality for the push car, it would be nice if all the GTR cars could get stuck in the sand. I guess interiors are just more important.

Edit: After seeing those interiors I have to say, they are really nice.

Quote from Mysho :

Now to finish this disccusion and hope for a clean race for both our teams

I really don't want any bad blood between us so next time I'm in that position I will let you by extra early... Sorry the inconvenience guys.

I agree, rule change please.

Just get any XRR out of these sand banks and let him continue his racing.

And get another push car driver, who actually will be able to drive a RB4..

Arg, didn't realize we were held 5 minutes too.

Race 4 pre-race thread:
The penalty for a Push Car rescue will be reduced from 5 minutes to 2.5 minutes. As above, we find 5 minutes to be an exorbitant penalty in practice, since at least a lap is already lost in the process of being rescued, and particularly since only one make of car is susceptible to beaching under normal circumstances.

:-' Was unwinding from the frustration of my stints at the time as Nolan served the penalty.

Yikes.

Well, that is definitely true.

Unfortunately, it looks like that promised change never actually made it into the rulebook, though there doesn't seem to be any concrete reason why. I feel really horrible about this.

I think that just giving the #1 car 2.5 minutes back won't work in a situation like this. For one thing, there are too many variables that might have affected how your race would have gone if you'd been held for half the time, and for another, though it was a promised rule change, it wasn't actually a rule at the time of the incident. We have to go by the rulebook.

For reference, giving 2.5 minutes back, according to the tracker, would put the #1 in 11th place.

The rule will definitely be changed for Round 6, and likely be made even more lenient than the round 4 change suggested.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Yikes.

Well, that is definitely true.

Unfortunately, it looks like that promised change never actually made it into the rulebook, though there doesn't seem to be any concrete reason why. I feel really horrible about this.

I think that just giving the #1 car 2.5 minutes back won't work in a situation like this. For one thing, there are too many variables that might have affected how your race would have gone if you'd been held for half the time, and for another, though it was a promised rule change, it wasn't actually a rule at the time of the incident. We have to go by the rulebook.

For reference, giving 2.5 minutes back, according to the tracker, would put the #1 in 11th place.

The rule will definitely be changed for Round 6, and likely be made even more lenient than the round 4 change suggested.

Well anything would certainly help. I personally feel that if the rule is going to be reviewed/changed that we should get back the amount of time we lost in reference to the new rule, if there is a new rule. IE if the new rule is 1 minute, we should get all the time we lost in the pits, minus 1 minute. I personally feel that is the fairest solution since it wasn't actually a rule at the time of the incident.

So you want to benefit from a rule that is being changed after the race is over? The results of the race should reflect the rules that were in place at the time the race took place.

I have to agree with bdshan here... Despite the fact that it was announced, the rules for this round hadn't yet changed.

Quote from bdshan :

So you want to benefit from a rule that is being changed after the race is over? The results of the race should reflect the rules that were in place at the time the race took place.

We discussed it in the round 4 thread so it appears most everyone (well whoever read the thread) knew about it. Maybe your right, maybe we shouldn't get the new rule idea, but I think some kind of compensation should definitely be in question. When an admin says they are going to do something, I typically expect it.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Unfortunately, it looks like that promised change never actually made it into the rulebook, though there doesn't seem to be any concrete reason why. I feel really horrible about this.

If this was the first time this had happened it would be understandable. However it's happened twice to us and there was obviously a mistake in the rules since you had planned on changing it.

Quote from bdshan :

So you want to benefit from a rule that is being changed after the race is over? The results of the race should reflect the rules that were in place at the time the race took place.

I think it's a bit unfair and unnecessarily confrontational to characterize his post like that.

The rule was slated to be changed back in May and for whatever reason (admin incompetence?) wasn't. The entire league was told it was going to be changed, and it seems that rcpilot, at least, was paying attention to that announcement.

Now... BigTime might not have been conscious of it at the time of the penalty/the start of the race, and rcpilot might not have noted that the change wasn't included in the revised rules. But the fault here is with the admins, not with BigTime. I think it's pretty natural to want to get time back in a situation like this.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a fair way to go about giving it back.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a fair way to go about giving it back.

I can see that being an issue... Even if you where to give us time back, we where two laps down to the next competitor.

One thing you might be able to do is go back and review the replay to see how long we where penalized in the pits. If it's over 2.5 minutes, which it is, then maybe you give us the extra time we lost back? If there is no one close to us on track, there is no reason to take the time to do so. However if there was someone that we would have overtaken, then it's worth the time. Ether way this round had completely disrupted our championship. Even if you give us the time back it's going to be our worse finish in IGTC history and it has really put the pressure on us to finish out the season in style.

Quote from BigTime :

I can see that being an issue... Even if you where to give us time back, we where two laps down to the next competitor.

One thing you might be able to do is go back and review the replay to see how long we where penalized in the pits. If it's over 2.5 minutes, which it is, then maybe you give us the extra time we lost back?

No serious racing league would do something like that. What happened in the past, happened in the past and is final.

The only way to prevent things from happening again, is to learn from what went wrong (drivers/organization) and make alterations in the rulings/procedures(admin) or driving style/strategy(racing team) - if applicable of course, to prevent the same thing from reoccurring in the upcoming events.

Can't really account for all the wudda, cudda, shudda. If you weren't held the extra time, most likely you would have never come into contact with the 06 as an example.

Quote from AppiePils :

No serious racing league would do something like that.

No serious racing league would state they are going to change a rule for the next round and then not do it simply because they forgot... I didn't go into this convo expecting to get any more positions back but comments like this really concern me because, as Ben stated, this was an admin issue. So basically if the admin team makes a mistake it's a wudda, cudda, shudda incident?

May I ask the reason this rule (5 minute penalty) was ever enforced/created in the first place?

Quote from bdshan :

Can't really account for all the wudda, cudda, shudda. If you weren't held the extra time, most likely you would have never come into contact with the 06 as an example.

Car contact and admin issues don't even fall into the same realm of penalties. If the admin team makes a mistake I expect them to stand up and do whats fair, not what's the best PR move. After all, you can't penalize an admin as you can a driver...

Quote from BigTime :

No serious racing league would state they are going to change a rule for the next round and then not do it simply because they forgot... I didn't go into this convo expecting to get any more positions back but comments like this really concern me because, as Ben stated, this was an admin issue. So basically if the admin team makes a mistake it's a wudda, cudda, shudda incident?

Why keep on asking to get minutes back then if you don't expect to get any positions back? DWB already acknowledged that this rule will be included in the next update path, so if your post is meant to have the rule included in the rules it is utterly late.

As to your final question: Yes. The rulebook version with which the race was started, applies to that race. Improvement points are taken into a new version for the next race.

That whole deal sucked for the 01 since they are in the XRR sand trap car and they got a 5 min penalty from the time they entered the pits. The penalty procedure and how it is administered needs to be done in a more structured way.

Example:
The 01 car enters the pit and stops in the pit box. 49 seconds later the pit is completed after damage fixed, tires changed and fuel. Pit notification in drivers view disappear for normal pit release. The 01 sits till given the go signal exactly 4 minutes later.

So the 01 is in the pits a total of 5 min from the Pit Lane Entry. A very long time overall.

I would suggest that what ever penalty given be assessed at the END of the Normal Pit stop and it should be reduced (or none at all) for the XRR if a push car is used. If no push then they get the normal penalty for bringing on a SC period. All other cars that have not had the use of the push car should get a penalty from the time of the pit stop Ending.

This seems confusing but what I'm saying is waiting for the push car is a penalty in itself as the XRR is the only car that will need it.

This post is not meant to criticize but just to add to the think tank.

Quote from AppiePils :

Why keep on asking to get minutes back then if you don't expect to get any positions back? DWB already acknowledged that this rule will be included in the next update path, so if your post is meant to have the rule included in the rules it is utterly late.

Expecting and receiving are not the same thing... I didn't expect to get stuck in the sand, but it happened. Also I answered this question 2 post ago...

"If there is no one close to us on track, there is no reason to take the time to do so. However if there was someone that we would have overtaken, then it's worth the time."

And the post clearly states that if we were to have passed another car on track due to admin error that you, the admin, should fix it... PR FTW.

Quote from BigTime :

Expecting and receiving are not the same thing... I didn't expect to get stuck in the sand, but it happened. Also I answered this question 2 post ago...

"If there is no one close to us on track, there is no reason to take the time to do so. However if there was someone that we would have overtaken, then it's worth the time."

And the post clearly states that if we were to have passed another car on track due to admin error that you, the admin, should fix it... PR FTW.

Aren't you asking the same question, but are using different words? Here is my reply (and Here is DWB's).