You've made up for admin mistakes lots of times in the past, and I'd quantify not adding a new rule to the main rule set two rounds later and then failing to apply the new rule a definite admin mistake. And I believe that's what BigTime's going for although in a bit more brash and roundabout way.

But, I'm along the lines of 'how do you make up for this fairly' in regards to this. If we were let out when we were supposed to we would've been let out while the SC queue was still in progress, which introduces far more variables beyond the normal amount of being stopped for 2 1/2 minutes with 2 hours left in a race.

All things considered, I don't think the teams in close competition with us would honestly find it unjust to give us a few points back in regards to this (not saying just slice 2 1/2 minutes off of our time straight up, but adding 3 points or something similar to our haul), but I'm not them so I dunno. But it's also unreasonable to believe that losing 2 1/2 minutes had anything near minimal chances in hurting us. (The woulda coulda shoulda argument.)

And one last thing, push car response time. Made several slight references to it in my original post regarding this, but the time it took for the push car to even start moving was ridiculous and probably needlessly lost us another lap. Not something really covered in the rules but the league needs to get on the ball with these things. I think the push car had just started moving between 1 1/2-2 minutes after I called $SC.

Quote from rcpilot :

You've made up for admin mistakes lots of times in the past

The Only example that springs to mind is the the non-escalation of the my3id pentalty after burnsy (?) incorrectly stated he had 3 laps (?) to serve the pentalty. Perhaps you could share the lots of other times?

Quote from srdsprinter :

The Only example that springs to mind is the the non-escalation of the my3id pentalty after burnsy (?) incorrectly stated he had 3 laps (?) to serve the pentalty. Perhaps you could share the lots of other times?

Ok, so I misspoke there believing there were significantly more, but a precedent is still a precedent. (And thanks for replying to one line of a long post like it helps.)

But, a rule is modified after our team gets knocked off the road by non-competition traffic into the kitty litter for being unjust, and the admins make a mistake and don't apply the new rule when the same damn thing happens again 2 races later. How is that just at all? This isn't some slight slap on the wrist, this is a race destroying penalty that shouldn't have been nearly as harsh according to what the rules rightly should have been at the time. (Or exist at all with the way the winds are blowing, but that's a matter for the future.) We're not asking for a grandfathering in under a new rule, we're not asking for a strange rule interpretation, all we're asking is that considerations are made for the fact that we got additionally screwed by poor stewardship on top of all the other poo slung our way Saturday.

Quote from rcpilot :

And one last thing, push car response time. Made several slight references to it in my original post regarding this, but the time it took for the push car to even start moving was ridiculous and probably needlessly lost us another lap. Not something really covered in the rules but the league needs to get on the ball with these things. I think the push car had just started moving between 1 1/2-2 minutes after I called $SC.

This is something that definitely needs to be addressed.

However, you should note that it is our internal policy not to send the PC out until the SC has collected the field, so that it doesn't get blindly mowed down by a car traveling at full speed.

(I haven't looked at that part of the replay yet to see if this had anything to do with it.)

Quote from rcpilot :

(And thanks for replying to one line of a long post like it helps.)

The length of your post does nothing to validate your incorrect claim of the long history of ex post facto reversals. As was similarly correctly pointed out a couple of races ago, this instance was completely different that the my3id team instance.

There is no consistent way to give your team points back that theorhetically you might have received after the race ends. Had there been another SC, allowing you to make up a lap would have been a sound bit of help.

The race was run with the rules as written. The push car was dispensed as soon as logical to do so. Stuff happens.

The admins apologized for forgetting to change the rules, there's not much more that can be done.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

However, you should note that it is our internal policy not to send the PC out until the SC has collected the field, so that it doesn't get blindly mowed down by a car traveling at full speed.

I don't think I have read this anywhere before. Thanks for the explanation. This additional information, makes the 5 min or 2.5 min SG penalty overly harsh, IMO. May I suggest that a 60 sec SG would suffice. For which on most tracks would mean they would join the end of the car queue before the restart.

Quote from AppiePils :

Aren't you asking the same question, but are using different words? Here is my reply (and Here is DWB's).

There is no question in that post Appie... I'm sure you've heard of the word convince. I am trying to convince you that your actions in the matter are unjust. You can take that how you want it but the simple fact of the matter is there was a mistake made by you the admins, and it needs to be addressed.

I think you need to be alittle more clear on what your refering to as well because as I stated, there is no question in my quote.

Quote from BigTime :

There is no question in that post Appie... I'm sure you've heard of the word convince. I am trying to convince you that your actions in the matter are unjust. You can take that how you want it but the simple fact of the matter is there was a mistake made by you the admins, and it needs to addressed.

I think you need to be alittle more clear on what your refering to as well because as I stated, there is no question in my quote.

Perhaps not a question, more an expectation as the 'admin should fix it' - comment indicates. The two links perfectly explains how it is been dealt with.

Having just watched the replay of the #1/#7 incident several times, it looks like it took about 3 minutes from the time of the SC period starting for the #1 to be rescued.

In my mind, this is penalty enough for all imaginable situations.

For subsequent rounds I plan to do away with the post-rescue time penalty altogether.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Having just watched the replay of the #1/#7 incident several times, it looks like it took about 3 minutes from the time of the SC period starting for the #1 to be rescued.

In my mind, this is penalty enough for all imaginable situations.

For subsequent rounds I plan to do away with the post-rescue time penalty altogether.

Quote from AppiePils :

Perhaps not a question, more an expectation as the 'admin should fix it' - comment indicates. The two links perfectly explains how it is been dealt with.

I'm not even talking about how it's been dealt with. I'm simply suggesting, not expecting, what I think should be done about the way it was dealt with. Ether way I need to let it die down. I've made all the points I have to make and I respect the admins discussions. And yes, I know I'm that annoying once I start ranting...

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Having just watched the replay of the #1/#7 incident several times, it looks like it took about 3 minutes from the time of the SC period starting for the #1 to be rescued.

In my mind, this is penalty enough for all imaginable situations.

For subsequent rounds I plan to do away with the post-rescue time penalty altogether.

Quote from srdsprinter :

The length of your post does nothing to validate your incorrect claim of the long history of ex post facto reversals. As was similarly correctly pointed out a couple of races ago, this instance was completely different that the my3id team instance.

There is no consistent way to give your team points back that theorhetically you might have received after the race ends. Had there been another SC, allowing you to make up a lap would have been a sound bit of help.

The race was run with the rules as written. The push car was dispensed as soon as logical to do so. Stuff happens.

The admins apologized for forgetting to change the rules, there's not much more that can be done.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=719002#post719002
Car gets a lap back for being accidentally kicked by the admins.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=581562#post581562
Car gets 30 seconds back post race to counteract a drive through.

Hardly unprecedented now that I took a bit more time to research it. (Jumble of race reports around, but I knew there was something ticking in my head along these lines.)

It's not like my suggestion is 'OMG ADVANTAGE'. If you give us 2 1/2 minutes back we end up 11th, that's 6 points from where we are now, I suggested a lower median on that of 3. And I'm not referring to the push car in regards to this penalty, that was just an 'oh yeah, please look at this in the future.' Not interested in getting grandfathered, just interested in having the rules applied as they should have been at the time.

Like I said, if there was a SC afterword, Possibly giving you a lap back would have been prudent.

The admins posted the rules changes way in advance, I would think a XRR team caught in the gravel before, such as your own, would be sure to know the exact wording of any changes to the push car pentalty. Shame none of you read the rules changes (not knowing the rules pre-race is against the rules btw).

In Round 5, the admins acted under there written rules. They realized the conflict but aside from their already issued apology, there is nothing that they can fairly issue.

Quote :

Note: Common sense is to be used regarding the rules. Teams who discover an unseen loophole should bring it up prior to an event, so that the event organisers can give a ruling on it. Participants in the series are expected to respect the marshals’ decisions and accept their rulings. Team Leaders, please make sure that all of the members of your team have read and fully understand the rules. The rules are subject to change throughout the season--all drivers are asked to re-read the rules prior to each event.

Quote from srdsprinter :

Like I said, if there was a SC afterword, Possibly giving you a lap back would have been prudent.

The admins posted the rules changes way in advance, I would think a XRR team caught in the gravel before, such as your own, would be sure to know the exact wording of any changes to the push car pentalty. Shame none of you read the rules changes (not knowing the rules pre-race is against the rules btw).

In Round 5, the admins acted under there written rules. They realized the conflict but aside from their already issued apology, there is nothing that they can fairly issue.

Yes, and I told our active driver at the time that the rule was 2 1/2 minutes when asked before leaving, and knew myself. And our active driver was honking his brains out at the admins trying to catch their attention wondering WTF was going on as he waited longer and longer in his pit box. I cannot remember what the Ventrilo situation was at the time but we were down to at least 3, 2 being in the car in no position to contact admins from our normal minimum of 4. Your constant state of attack is wearing thin when I've been very calm and explained my points thoroughly through each post. (Explanations and points you've thoroughly ignored.) Calling everyone on my team involved ignorant on this when events just plain conspired against us (and I've stated we weren't) and the admins who wrote the rule completely forgot about it is just getting pretty low (I believe there were 5 on at the time although some were newer to the series).

Beligerant, really?

I've posted several points you have chose to ignore as well.

If you did in fact read the rules pre-race, why did you not choose to inform the admins of their rule change ommission in regards to the push car pentalty?

Quote from srdsprinter :

Beligerant, really?

I've posted several points you have chose to ignore as well.

If you did in fact read the rules pre-race, why did you not choose to inform the admins of their rule change ommission in regards to the push car pentalty?

Because when you're regularly keeping track of rule updates you don't expect the rule updates to not get transferred to the set of rules you already know? Why didn't you inform the admins of the rule change omission? You obviously read the entire thing before each race considering you just asked me this.

Look at the rules and the situation at hand. Then continue as you best see fit. Good Luck.

While on the subject of messed up rules:

2.1) Events start at 19:00 UTC with a 30 minute qualifying session.

Quote from srdsprinter :

Look at the rules and the situation at hand. Then continue as you best see fit. Good Luck.

When the admins say they are going to do something, they should do it... If the admins are ever going to change rules, they should always post on the forums about it. The admins here did this, however they didn't change the rule. So you guys, including the admins, are basically saying that we should be forced to re-read the entire set of rules every round to check it for mistakes? I'm not the IGTC editor so I ask you to look at the situation at hand...

I said I was done but I have to respond to this.

So, what's going on here? A fight of racers? Funneh.

Quote from Riders Motion :

So, what's going on here? A fight of racers? Funneh.

Celebrity death match.

Wanna popcorn? I have Coke and Beer too... and some other snacks... come on, join watching it...

On topic:
Ok, admins made a mistake, DWB said he feels sorry for it.
"He who works, makes mistakes."

If we answer the question "will #1 get anything from getting back 2,5mins?" maybe we can finish this discussion...
If NO, then no problem at all.
if YES, then continue to argue

My 5 cents: admins word is final, what they decide - stays.

#1 will not be getting 2.5 minutes back.

Corey, the start time rule is correct in the rules as posted in the rules thread. The rules have not been updated on the website (lookin' at you, Benj).

Bah, i went through them but must of missed that one... Like i was sure i had everything coming back from my dads house but left my toothbrush .