Quote from Theafro :

I use a clutch/shifter setup which puts me at a disadvantage against those that use 2 pedals and paddle-shift. But it doesn't matter to me though, If I'm the fastest Clutch user on the chart, that's as good as a WR for me!

At last a post that I can agree with wholeheartedly
If it wasnt fro the fact that to do so would be an administrative nightmare, I would love to see TWO WR charts, one for clutch/shifter, and one for arcaders! As it happens all of my hotlaps were done with clutch/shifter..they arent particularly fast, but as Theafro says, if I'm top clutch user then its as good as WR for me

Mike (Rodgers)...Maybe people with a G25 CHOOSE not to use a button clutch because they have a pedal for it instead! Also, what's the point of spending lots of beer-tokens on a wheel/shifter, only to use it the same as any cheap wheel?

Quote from Bladerunner :

Mike (Rodgers)...Maybe people with a G25 CHOOSE not to use a button clutch because they have a pedal for it instead! Also, what's the point of spending lots of beer-tokens on a wheel/shifter, only to use it the same as any cheap wheel?

It's only a response to complaints and statements that they can't. They can, they just choose not to. It is still there and available to them.

Quote from arco :

I can think of a few others as well. Also from Spain go figure...

Would you mind to give me a list?

If you prefer to do so via PM I don't mind

Thanks in advance

the people who uses a mouse to take the direction control, more rapid and precision is not cheater? does not do traps? accelerate and brake with a button in a better reaction time that with a few pedals is not a trap? Is not the stabilizer of keyboard an advantage? and the steering wheels with axes in the paddles that activate the analogical axis at the same gear change time is not an advantage?

The clutch button is a option and you can use it if you want, in the same way as you can move the car direction with a mouse...

arco, also I learn slow the combos or you believe that I give a lap and do wr? and yes, me and "other spanish figures" we use the suspensions and the gears relations of the wr to beat them but we copy the set with the lfsworld tool, with all rights

Rocksgt you can see "the other spanish figures" (mr crybaby words) here http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/8198/20866165cp3.jpg

Crybaby, lol! Nice!

Don't forget to add Aitorrr to that list too.

Well pecholobo, at least you seem to have the decency to have stopped using it. If so, kudos to you for that.
About the others, the sad thing is that they also use it to gain advantages in your internal Spanish leagues. I'm pretty sure that most of the other contestants have absolutely no clue about it. Sure, they're probably fast without it too, but this way they are pretty much guaranteed to be at the top.

Quote from arco :

Crybaby, lol! Nice!

Don't forget to add Aitorrr to that list too.

Well pecholobo, at least you seem to have the decency to have stopped using it. If so, kudos to you for that.
About the others, the sad thing is that they also use it to gain advantages in your internal Spanish leagues. I'm pretty sure that most of the other contestants have absolutely no clue about it. Sure, they're probably fast without it too, but this way they are pretty much guaranteed to be at the top.

Don't worry... many people know the trick. In my team we discuss it and some of my teammates try it, but we're really far away from the top times and use to drive for joy (we're not breaking any WR :tilt.

Anyway... Aitorr doesn't race in our league anymore and Zanini and arrechee are in another level (with permission from Elgar and a few more guys) so no one will complain if they get two tenths that way

In our forums we use to discuss a lot about exploiting times vs simulating reality... you know... cockpit view vs wheels view, cluth axis and H shifter vs paddles... and in the end we don't blame no one because we have fun every monday and we have one of the best leagues (organization, automatic system and community) and we're really proud of it

Arco, go back your hotlaps. You are not cheater.
G25 is cheaters construction, mouse also cheaters construction. And what we will do? No play LFS?

Quote from Theafro :

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.

Unfortunately, you can say this for anything...like timer cheats. There is always a limit between what is legal or not, the devs have to decide and try to make the sim as fair as possible.

For me, as soon as you use another piece of code (exe, script) - which is not included in the game - to go faster...there is a little problem. Scripts like aimbots have ruined most FPS games. I expected something similar would not occur with racing sims.

Do you think that there's anyway for devs to prevent using this cheat? (yes, I said cheat)

Quote from Kdovi :

Do you think that there's anyway for devs to prevent using this cheat? (yes, I said cheat)

Maybe removing the button clutch.

But I wouldn't call it a cheat, it's not an exploit nor a bug, both scripting and button clutch are documented features of LFS, so while not being very sportsmanship, it's a legitimate option like the old high nose bug or the locked diff.

Finding a way to prevent it would be good for the fairness of competition, but calling them cheaters is not correct.

Anyone care to post the script ?

Quote from pecholobo :

the people who uses a mouse to take the direction control, more rapid and precision is not cheater? does not do traps? accelerate and brake with a button in a better reaction time that with a few pedals is not a trap? Is not the stabilizer of keyboard an advantage? and the steering wheels with axes in the paddles that activate the analogical axis at the same gear change time is not an advantage?

The clutch button is a option and you can use it if you want, in the same way as you can move the car direction with a mouse...

It takes some skill in order to utilitize the mouse accuracy.
Appart from that, not having complete control in throttle and braking is a disadvantage which in not apparent only on combos with slow road cars (XFG) , or with 4wd (RB4, FXR) drivetrain. Same goes with the kb.
Generally the ability to give really fast steering inputs, hardly overcomes the disadvantage of not having analog throttle control.
Also it takes some skill to synchronize always the clutch even if it is just an extra button.
While a script that uses the clutch as an ultra fast axis input in perfect synch with the gear change, doesn’t require any skill at all and eliminates the gearbox restrictions that are there for a reason…

Ive never used the script bean0. But it is quite simple to make button macro in Logitech profiler so that when you press the paddle, It depresses clutch beforehand, then its just a case of <in LFS> set clutch axis to button, manual clutch, then adapt a nice button rate.

Quote from Bean0 :

Anyone care to post the script ?

You can just make it yourself using the profiler.

Ah right, I have never used the profiler.

At the end of the day, it is more of an exploit than a cheat. It is up to league admins to enforce the use of autoclutch if they see fit, like in the failed eTM series.

Quote from arco :

Too late, already deleted my hotlaps.

Woot! Seems like this was good morning to wake up

.. But in serious.. put 'em back and lets continue our hotlap wars.. I'm not done with you on SO2 yet!

Let cheaters cheat.. At least we fair drivers know who has the REAL wr

Quote :

And on top of that, they use my setup (which they got from Phlos wr set collection) without permission. If they beat me fair and square, then I have no problem with it.

I wonder if they are STILL doing this and not just by Phlos.. Maybe there is tool to extract set from wr replay? Just makes me wonder when I see sets from other users whichs never been shared yet.. If there is way to do this, it's bigger cheat than just button clutch imo

EDIT: button clutch has been called "cheat" since the day it was found in early demo days.. It gives way too big speed difference against auto-clutch

There are ways to rip sets from replays, and more people than Phlos have made tools to do so - Phlos' one just made it VERY easy with his "setupfield". For once he did the "right thing" though and pulled it once Vic found it.

Quote from arco :

I'm not the fastest, or most natural talented driver, not by a long shot. Hell, I'm just an old guy trying to keep up with alien teenagers. Some of the wr's I've set, I've worked really really hard on. Sometimes hours, sometimes days.

:uglyhamme

"somtimes hours, sometimes days" ahahahah and you say you're slow? oh god... i wish i was as "slow" as you!

Quote from (FIN)Eza :

I wonder if they are STILL doing this and not just by Phlos.. Maybe there is tool to extract set from wr replay? Just makes me wonder when I see sets from other users whichs never been shared yet.. If there is way to do this, it's bigger cheat than just button clutch imo

Are you talking about tire pressures and diff locking?
Because all suspension settings, brake force and gear ratios are already in public view at LFSW.
You can easily find camber and caster settings by pressing shift+L in game…
and aliment - DF just from some guesswork by watching the forces at force view in certain speeds...

The Thread is straying a little off topic here, there was this thread i spotted earlier regarding the Info shared with IHLA@LFSW.
--
back on topic.

The hardest thing i see, is balancing the autoclutch make it too fast there is no point using that shiny set that comes with a G25, make it too slow and i bet use of a button clutch would increase rapidly to compensate those that feel unable to compete using the autoclutch system.

I seem to remember a discusion about this issue from a few years ago .... might have to trawl the forums to find it.

Quote from kaynd :

Are you talking about tire pressures and diff locking?
Because all suspension settings, brake force and gear ratios are already in public view at LFSW.

Os*it.... Never noticed it's THAT detailed :bigeyes2:

nVm on this set copying then..

Quote from Jakg :

There are ways to rip sets from replays, and more people than Phlos have made tools to do so - Phlos' one just made it VERY easy with his "setupfield". For once he did the "right thing" though and pulled it once Vic found it.

Erm, way to go wit the double standards there. Phlos makes a setupfield to basically help out the community to get WR sets (which are pretty much useless for anything else except hotlaping) and then he is lynched in the forums and people spam his site, BUT when Victor makes a LFSW hotlap analyser thingy that basically does the same thing - reveals setup information then he is praised for a good job with helping out the community to learn more about sets? And when people start complaining about how they don't want their setup information revealed the only argument fallacy used is: "Oh if you don't want to help out your community then don't upload hotlaps to LFSW". Just cut the shit and get off ur high fanboi horse.

The set information availlable on LFSW wasn't already available using wsinda's replay analyser ?

My, my... I lived in the dark all this time. I had no idea there's a script making you change gears much faster, along with a button clutch. Is there a way to spot this by watching a replay, other than watching the timing of the gearing?

In any case, arco I know exactly what you mean when you say how hard it is to make a laptime in the top-3 of the charts, even more hard for a wr. And I surely understand the disappointment you feel. We're about the same age, meaning our reflexes and memory are not the same as they're used to be some years (even decades) ago.

However, I would urge you to re-upload your hotlaps. IMHO it's not a solution to throw away all the hard work you have put into them. Anything in the top-3 to the top-10 of the chart (depending on the popularity of the combo) is well respected by those who know

Throw those hotlaps back, plz! Let all those... scriptobuttonclutchers think they deserve to be respected, they don't. At least not by those who matters.

imo anyone who uses a macro or whatever to speed up the clutch/shift time should be banned from submitting any hotlaps to LFSW for at least a year.

Cheating is cheating there is no argument. The Devs should act on this.