Quote from Shotglass :

i never said he did it to pass kimi (stop reading things into what i write when it suits you) but from the onboard its very clear that he decides to steer onto the runoff while he still has plenty room and time to stay on the road

OK then, I apologise for misunderstanding you.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I'm not a Hamilton "fan" (I'm a Williams "fan"), but even I think he was robbed (and the fans were robbed - all F1 fans). My opinion is that if he did gain an advantage by cutting the chicane, he gave the position back adequately afterwards and in any other circumstances weather-wise Kimi would've been able to defend his position at the next corner. He would've been nowhere near Rykernen in La Source if Kimi hadn't braked so much earlier than Lewis did - the only reason he made the pass there was because Kimi simply couldn't keep him behind, regardless of what happened at the chicane.

The other thing that sticks in fans' throats is that if the stewards are going to insist on handing out penalties to the absolute letter of the law, they should've given Massa a drive-through at Valencia the week before. It's this kind of incongruity that causes all the anger.

couldnt put it better...

Quote from xaotik :

However, the reason he was right behind him - as has been pointed out and debated to death - was exactly because he cut the chicane. This is sort of like the proverbial chicken and egg debate, however it's mostly about cocks and balls it seems.

EDIT:
And a little bit of wisdom by DC:

Quote from xaotik :

Originally Posted by David Coulthard
"At the end of the day this is a sport. There are a set of rules and regulations, and the race track is defined by the white lines. In Monaco you don't cut corners, you hit barriers.

"You can argue it was not Monaco, but the driver would have respected the corner if there was a barrier there. Lewis knew there was no barrier so he cut the corner.

"He did not need to go across there particularly, he did because he tried to go side-by-side with Raikkonen and Kimi squashed him in that position. From a driving point of view you have to look at the white lines as barriers."

thats grate DC but we see lots of drivers "go outside the white lines" and not get nailed for it, thats my problem, but because a red car and a mclarean were involved its rule book time..

and yes i will argue its not monaco simply because kimi would not have squeezed LH like that if the is a wall there, we see this "sqeezing" quite a bit and brundel is always saying that "you just know as a driver where you can get away with it"..

so if it WAS monaco and kimi did do that it would be clased as dangerous..

its easy to look at it from the LH point and say "he would not have done that if there was a wall there", but lets look at it from kimi's side, that squeeze would look completly different to if there had been a wall there, and im not saying kimi did wrong "there" as no one is going to get killed in the proccess.

Mackie the staggie

i understand what your saying, and your right its a whole differnt mess, but what the FIA are saying ( ithink lol) is its not as simple as just "giving the position back" to rid your self of any blame, ok fine i dont make the rules but what IS the rule, you carnt just say on the day you had a advantage..

now if the FIA was to come out in 10 mins with a statment and telemetry proof that says technically LH had NOT given back the position,

OR

he did give back the position technically but was still on the gas to soon (before the pass took place) then i will rest my case and say sorry to the fia, but none of this has been said or even hinted at, THAT i find strange...

what ever happened AFTER the pass was made is pretty mutch irreleavent becasue how do you judge and how do you expect the drivers/teams to to define the advantage...

ok try this, get 2 cars in LFS give one the advantage lift off and give the position back, now if that position is given properly then the "advantaged" car CANNOT have any UNFAIR advantage its impossible scientificly, the only advantage you can have is getting more grip and getting better exceleration from your drive wheels (witch LH had), so what we are saying is mclarean have been nailed for having a better car in the wet and this is what this comes down to..

what the FIA are saying and some on here are saying is that LH gain more on KR than he would have if he had followed him through the chicane right?? number 1 i dont think so "IMO" LH was out excelerating kimi by far, so there wouldn be mutch in it, but for the sakes of argument lets say there would have been, The fact is THIS HAPPENS cars leave the track, and if "giving back the possition" is not enough then what is.. what are you to do????, you carnt just say "DONT LEAVE THE TRACK" and therefore no rule, if so we wouldnt need ambulances ready because we would just say "dont crash"

my understanding of a sports rules are to cover all eventuality's, not make em up as you go along

Quote :

Originally Posted by David Coulthard
"At the end of the day this is a sport. There are a set of rules and regulations, and the race track is defined by the white lines. In Monaco you don't cut corners, you hit barriers.

Well EVERY driver (inc Hamilton) was cutting the second chicane in free practise today.. which according to the rules is ILLEGAL! He says the track is defined by the white lines but yet doesn't follow his OWN point in the VERY NEXT RACE! by launching all 4 wheels outside the white lines

Quote from Intrepid :

Well EVERY driver (inc Hamilton) was cutting the second chicane in free practise today.. which according to the rules is ILLEGAL! He says the track is defined by the white lines but yet doesn't follow his OWN point in the VERY NEXT FREE PRACTICE! by launching all 4 wheels outside the white lines

Good thing it's free practice then - come race time he'll have found where the track is.

Quote from xaotik :

Good thing it's free practice then - come race time he'll have found where the track is.

I am 90-100% sure they will all be cutting the track. Why do it in practise if your not going to do it come race day! it's pointless data otherwise!

For all those who enjoy the odd conspiracy theory and wear tin foil hats.....you may like this weeks sniff petrol.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

For all those who enjoy the odd conspiracy theory and wear tin foil hats.....you may like this weeks sniff petrol.

what a read that was!!! , i better go change now as i think ive slightly soiled myself.... grate find mackie

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

For all those who enjoy the odd conspiracy theory and wear tin foil hats.....you may like this weeks sniff petrol.

I love that site, the spoof car adverts are the best, my favourite is the Twingo one...

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/2007/09/

just found a better one!

Who would have thought that the bright, happy, quirky little guy who presented How2 and other children shows would be such a cynical and hilarious bar-steward

FIA have clarified the chicane cutting rules: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70526

Quote from Mark Webber :

"But generally, it is pretty clear for people to probably not attack immediately again, which wasn't mega, mega clear in the past."

So there we have it. It's been clarified which means it was not clearly defined before which means they can't give a penaltly for it. Lewis will get his win back on September 22. If there are sane people judging that is.

Clarifying a rule doesn't mean the rule didn't exist before. It's just a bit more obvious now, although I think it was pretty clear beforehand myself.

After a week of (mostly) ranting in this thread i think this picture fits in well.



Let's hope something happens saturday or sunday so people find something new to be appalled by.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Clarifying a rule doesn't mean the rule didn't exist before. It's just a bit more obvious now, although I think it was pretty clear beforehand myself.

:doh:

QUOTE!
"In the wake of the Lewis Hamilton controversy from Belgium, F1 drivers sought clarification on what was and was not allowed during their regular Friday evening briefing with F1 race director Charlie Whiting."

just what ive been saying all along

so your telling me that all these drivers and teams throw MILLIONS into a championship and just carnt be arsed reading the rule book???

and if the FIA dusted off some parchment detailing these rules why the feck are mclarean making a stand on it??? if its there its there right???, and there is no question that LH re passed before the "next corner" so why are mclarean taking this further??? surey what your saying they havent a leg to stand on, he didnt wait 1 turn before the pass....

its not just the current drivers here its all the oldies, who all kow a tad bit more about f1 reg's than us, and they are asking the FIA "what is the rule here"..

im sorry this bullshit, why as this taken a week??, if its been clear for so long and even tristancliffe knows why didnt the fia come out in a news confrence THAT DAY and say look you ass hats this is the rule now shat-ap b1tching..

i find is amusing that the PINICLE of motorsport has rules thats its participants dont fully understand while throwing millions into the sport..

this is the biggest pile of horse shit ive seen since back beauty ate that indian curry, and ya know whats even better they WILL get away with it

Quote from Noccy :

After a week of (mostly) ranting in this thread i think this picture fits in well.



Let's hope something happens saturday or sunday so people find something new to be appalled by.

im in that group but i p1ssed myself at that!! grate stuff

I think the "confusion" is because, as far as I know, there isn't a rule that says that you have to give back the position after an illegal overtake. It's bloody common sense, fair play. Something most drivers seem to be lacking.

But wasn't the penalty because of the cut anyway? That day I found it awful to give Lewis a penalty, but after some replays and some reading I began to think it was the right decision. No matter how hard you try (and I tried), you can't change the simple fact that Lewis passed Kimi at La Source because he cut the Bus Stop.

Doesn't matter what would happen if there was a wall, if he had braked, if they had crashed, if he had not overtaken Kimi at La Source, if he would had passed Kimi anyway, because it's all speculation. What happened is: he passed because of the cut. And that's unfair advantage, meaning you'll be penalized.

That's what I think anyway.

Quote from de Souza :

I think the "confusion" is because, as far as I know, there isn't a rule that says that you have to give back the position after an illegal overtake.

There is.

Quote :

But wasn't the penalty because of the cut anyway?

The penalty was for gaining advantage after cutting, despite handing back the position.

Quote :

That day I found it awful to give Lewis a penalty, but after some replays and some reading I began to think it was the right decision. No matter how hard you try (and I tried), you can't change the simple fact that Lewis passed Kimi at La Source because he cut the Bus Stop.

This is how the stewards saw it, too. FIA have now amended the rule that applies to this situation. It now states that not only must any position gained as a result of cutting be returned, the cuttee shall not attempt to repass until after the following corner (i.e., only after La Sauce, in this case).

Quote from thisnameistaken :

My opinion is that if he did gain an advantage by cutting the chicane, he gave the position back adequately afterwards and in any other circumstances weather-wise Kimi would've been able to defend his position at the next corner.

they should've given Massa a drive-through at Valencia the week before.

every video i've watched of the incident leads me to the conclusion that raikonnen could have moved over and let hamilton share bus-stop with him. failing that, hamilton did what he had to - to prevent an accident.

now after that... raikonnen came out of bus-stop so slow, that even if hamilton slowed down more, he would have had to stop on the track because raikonnen was driving so slow on their way to lasource. then to top it all off, raikonnen bumped hamilton in lasource. without penalty.

and i agree that massa should have gotten a penalty for that unsafe pit exit. (that is what we were referring to, right?)

now before you all call me a lewis/mclaren fanboi, i must say that i don't have a team preference... and i dislike certain racers over others. raikonnen is a good driver, i'll give him that, but i just don't like him. alonso neither. don't like webber either.

edit: here's to hoping monza is better.

Quote from de Souza :

I think the "confusion" is because, as far as I know, there isn't a rule that says that you have to give back the position after an illegal overtake.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

There is.

There isn't and the fact that Lewis said after the "I gave back the position like the rules say" only goes to show that the drivers do not read the rules.

The rule says that the drivers must stay on the defined track at all times. The rules are then married to the principle of gaining an advantage. Hence a penalty.

Quote from joshdifabio :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/h ... t/formula_one/7611152.stm

Have to agree with the golden oldies and say the drivers will always say Hamilton is in the wrong because he is leading the championship. But I think everyone is accepting Hamilton may have gained an advantage, but the penalty was not a fair result for the race, and it's not consistent with other incidents in previous years. Although at least now there is a proper clarification on what drivers should do, before it was a grey area and more of a gentlemans agreement.

I do think it's highlighted problems with the stewards that need to be sorted out if the sport is to regain some credibility and shrug off the impression that it's fixed or biased. I like Autosports suggestion of having an ex-driver as a public front for the stewards, to explain decisions to the fans and also give a drivers input, and give the Race Director more input too.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

FIA have now amended the rule that applies to this situation. It now states that not only must any position gained as a result of cutting be returned, the cuttee shall not attempt to repass until after the following corner ...

Well, let's just hope everyone's agreed on what's a corner and what's a bend then!

That's the first thing that I thought. Unless FIA define corners for each track there will be space for disagreement.

vari found something nice
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/2493/crashlu0.jpg

How can I seriously respect a kid like this?

http://www.wheels24.co.za/Cont ... imi_doesnt_have_the_balls

LOL @ Hamilton saying '' I'm great in those conditions'' xD Now thats being cocky :P. I mean he is but don't rub it in their faces! :P