Quote from spankmeyer :

Would it be too much to ask if there was two schedules running paraller (what's the correct word?) with a 15 or 30 minutes between them?

They probably could if there were a lot more drivers, but to get more drivers they need to change some stuff about the system to make it appeal to more people.

(parallel is the word your looking for )

Quote from Quint999 :

The thought of the Mazda @ Lime Rock scares the hell out of me, i've noticed a few videos of people clearing the hill by a foot or so, must be damm scary doing that side by side. What kind of lap times can you get at Lime Rock ?

I've stopped practicing there, but the fastest guys are doing 48.1, and I fluked some 48.5s in practice. At that pace your brain will explode after 3 laps though :|

Quote from Jertje :

I've stopped practicing there, but the fastest guys are doing 48.1, and I fluked some 48.5s in practice. At that pace your brain will explode after 3 laps though :|

46.1

You have to carry so much speed into T1 it's insane. I can only do 46.6 and after 48 laps of that I'm sweating like I was playing tennis or something.

Edit: Also, in the one race I did last night not many people were going side by side up the hill, if any. To be safe I usually crest the hill more towards the middle... my car always skips over to the left a little when I land.

Oh right, 46's... shows you how much I still care about the Mazda @ LRP :P

I think this track and car combo really brings out the non-realism in sim racing...

It really accentuates the no fear aspect of it all lol. That lap that Ben Cornett posted was amazing, but honestly...would someone be able to pull that off in real life lap after lap?

Mashing the brake for a tenth of a second and pitching it into turn 1.

Turning in everywhere at full throttle with no fear of something not working for you mid corner and pushing into the wall

Catching some massive sideways air on the top of the uphill

Bottoming out in the downhill and practically having a minor snap spin before it regains grip and continues through the corner.

Its so beyond being on the edge...and yet its where all the fastest people will be at the end of the week still looking for ways to push it farther.

http://blip.tv/file/1476080/

I think my problem is that I'm half way between that style of driving the mazda, and the conserved style...and it needs to be one or the other. (if anyone is still interested in me :P)

I almost posted this on the iracing forum, but it would be very OT for a constructive thread and I didn't feel like making a new one.

Quote from spanks :

http://blip.tv/file/1476080/

Holy F*!k - it`s Pole Position on an Atari 2600....

If that`s what iracing looks and drives like, I am sooo glad I flatly refuse to splash the cash on a bloody demo.

Quote from unseen :

Holy F*!k - it`s Pole Position on an Atari 2600....

If that`s what iracing looks and drives like, I am sooo glad I flatly refuse to splash the cash on a bloody demo.

It's obvious that the video quality is terrible. The game itself looks great which can be confirmed by looking at just about any other video out there. Also, I don't understand how you can judge from that video that the game "drives" badly unless you judge physics by the graphics.

Sarcasm FTW.

Seriously though, that was the most unrealistic drive around Limerock (or practically any other track) I`ve ever seen. The right/left/right high speed, glued to the track jinking just reminded me totally of ancient old pole position.

Also, call me johnny cheapskate if you will, but the day I pay for a demo to see if I want to pay for a game is the day I loosen my trousers and bend for men.

Quote from unseen :

Sarcasm FTW.

Seriously though, that was the most unrealistic drive around Limerock (or practically any other track) I`ve ever seen. The right/left/right high speed, glued to the track jinking just reminded me totally of ancient old pole position.

If you went and tried the iRacing Mazda on that track, there's no way you would make those comparisons. Even though it's a modern open-wheel car with a wimpy engine, it doesn't feel glued to the track even with a high-downforce setup. And in my opinion it doesn't look like that in the video, either.

It's easy to see from the small steering wheel icon that Ben Cornett makes lots of small corrections with the wheel. Download the higher quality avi and you'll see more of the behaviour of the car. Ben is one of the top sim racers in the world, and with any lesser drivers at the wheel you'd see them struggle a lot more trying to achieve such speed.

I think that's just the effect you get when one of the best simmers gets unlimited time to pull the maximum out of the sim. Even if a sim would be 100% realistic, a lap in that sim would still be 1-3 seconds faster than the real-world lap record, it would still be achieved with an undrivable setup in real life, and it would still look plain silly from an onboard cam.

It's the same in every sim, ever. Look at some of the oldschool Biggie WR laps around south city, you think anyone would actually take the high-speed chicane by going in full-throttle and jerking the wheel from left to right? No matter how realistic, a sim will never, ever be the same as real-life. The best thing that can be done by the developers is to make everything as near to real-life as possible and the rest is up to the drivers; maybe a lap will look different once ground-effect is modelled, but it will always be faster than any real-life lap.

That said, the Mazda and Radical feel very inert in terms of cockpit movement, and it does make for an odd-looking experience, but the underlying physics feel a lot better since the last update, and I'm sure they'll feel better still when the aero model is 'completed' with the addition of ground-effects.

Quote from Quint999 :

You've seriously got to be kidding with that statement.

No.

Quote from Quint999 :

Maybe so, but come on, to me the only people that make riddiculas sweeping statements like that are Zealots themselves. And now i've just done the same thing

Iracing has its faults, the system has its faults, along with every other sim on the market.

Some will like the SR / IR / TT, some wont, i personally would prefer to keep the SR for the ladders / pickups & have something less restrictive with private leagues / proper team racing, time will tell.

My experience is it promotes cleaner racing particularly as you move up the classes, i doubt you'll ever get truly clean racing in any sim without intense human admining 24/7 and i cant imagine many admins would relish that thought.

The point being made to Intrepid is that you need to stick with it, once you drag yourself out the destruction derbies of the Rookie Solstice and Legend, it gets a little better, unfortunately it doesnt really get better until you spend a little more money for the Skips or Late Models.

If you dont want to do that, then Iracing isnt for you, it hardly makes those that are there and sticking with it Zealots.

Point of order: If you consult your OED (you have an OED?) you will find:
Evangelical = Being fervent in advocating something. Yes, I meant that.
Zeal = Great energy or enthusiasm for a cause or objective. Yes, I meant that too.
Zealot = A fanatical and uncompromising follower of a religion or objective.
You confused zeal with being a zealot which I'm not and I don't think I accused anyone of being.

Wow after weeks of patiently reading most posts on those 141 pages I've managed to get to the end this is a moderately long post, so let me point out it's not a review or impressions about the actual game, but rather my thoughts as a potential buyer.

---

Initially, iRacing looked quite Evil to me because of the price structure and lock-in strategy. Now I've changed my mind and honestly think it's just crazy if you're going to ask that much, choose between a monthly fee OR a pay-per-content model, not both :smash: but I could blow 20$ on a 1 month trial just to try how it feels like. I'd still prefer to give that money to Scavier for more LFS, though.

I don't think comparing iRacing with the cost of things like an internet subscription makes sense, with the latter I can do whatever I feel like, iRacing will always be 'only' a racing sim.

I'm not exceedingly interested in real life content, it may be cool for awhile but the gap between the real thing and its simulated counterpart seems far too wide, and while iRacing has been trying hard to close it, it still has to face all the problems the others have no matter the amount of money or time they have been supposedly throwing at them.

Fictional content is good enough for me, as long as it is good enough i.e. I would like more and better tracks in LFS but I can still live with it just fine. For the very same reason I'm not rushing out to buy it... time is on my side (or so I like to think ).

However, offering detailed track surface seems quite an interesting advancement over the current state of LFS.

Oh and this thing, having to buy it in the end of the season to get the most out of it, races being scheduled and "don't call it a game" etc, it's all very much un-service-like, not like they're happy to provide me with a service but just being kind enough to let me try it (with my own money, so nice of you), just run of the mill marketing tricks to achieve an exclusive image.

Quote from NightShift :

I don't think comparing iRacing with the cost of things like an internet subscription makes sense, with the latter I can do whatever I feel like, iRacing will always be 'only' a racing sim.

Not sure, what you're doing with your internet connection, but I know that mine will always 'only' be an internet connection and not suddenly turn into something else.

Seriously, though, I think all your points are valid, but it's just a cost-benefit calculation. And neither cost nor benefit are fixed values, so to speak. If I would earn $100 per month I certainly wouldn't put 13% of that into a racing game, but luckily, I can afford it it and it doesn't hurt to shell out that money. And my benefit is huge in the sense that iRacing pushes all the right buttons for me. The system is just right for me. The feel is great, the structure suits me just right and therefore the $13/month are worth it for me.

And as far as this goes:

Quote from NightShift :

For the very same reason I'm not rushing out to buy it... time is on my side (or so I like to think ).

Yeah, I hope so. I really hope that iRacing will grow and one day become worth it for many, many more people. That is what the whole system relies on: The more people sign up, the better it will get. I just hope it works out.

I've lost my mojo

it happens every new season.

Iracing depression

I can't figure out what to race so I spend minimal time with everything (if I race at all) and I suck when I do.

I've 7 tenths off my PB at summit point from last season and I'm just not finding the time back.

Oh well, off to race and hopefully snap me out of it a bit.

I give up...I'm 2nd and am following right behind the leader. He's all over the place...I could have pressed the issue many times, but no I was staying behind him like someone who didn't want to crash would

2nd lap last corner he loops it right in front of me yayyyyyyy

time for a break from iracing...maybe I'll come back strong in the 2nd half of the season like I did last time. For now, screw this I'm not having fun anymore.

Same thing here... maybe not as bad, I still feel like racing but dont have much time. I got all pumped for Lime rock, had a great first race, then last night a backmarker got the best of me. Followed him nicely for a lap or so, then he slams on the brakes at the apex of the downhill. He's doing 65 I'm doing 130. It was into the back of him for 4x or into the wall for 3x. I picked the wall, and Dale Jr. moved up into my spot.

Quote from NightShift :

Initially, iRacing looked quite Evil to me because of the price structure and lock-in strategy. Now I've changed my mind and honestly think it's just crazy

What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that apparently it's priced so high as to actually keep people out. I can't imagine that there are too many people who would actually buy S2 at the very reasonable price that Scavier are asking and simply want to blow that by going online and wrecking (ban from servers). It's well known that the quality of racing on S2 servers is a league ahead of the demo servers. With the inclusion of iRacing's SR, that should have been enough to keep people in check.. and failing that a permanent ban from the server.

I said in another post, this inflated pricing just hurts the people that are actually buying it. It's a disincentive for wreckers sure, but since they probably will never buy the sim, no harm is actually being done to those people. What about the serious sim racers who don't actually have all that much money, who would feel very much at home at iRacing if it weren't for the ridiculously overpriced entrance fee? I've defended the pricing structure in the past (not having seen the actual quality of the sim) but I've come around to the view that the whole thing seems very unfair, snobbish, and representative of a very bizarre idea on what constitutes a quality online racing community. Having to spend truckloads of cash on a sim doesn't automatically make people better racers. The people at iRacing would have you believe otherwise though, it seems.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

What leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that apparently it's priced so high as to actually keep people out.

Maybe their subscribers are happy with only running two or three races a day. In LFS I could do that in an hour, with fag breaks!

LOL that's hilarious...

It is the furthest thing from elitist or exclusive or anything. It is true if you race online just to wreck you're in the wrong place...but it doesn't cost a lot because of that.

Regardless of the 20 million they have sunk with $0 coming in, do you realize how much money it takes to keep the doors open at a company like that? The salaries and server costs alone probably put them break even. Its no where near the size yet it needs to be to sustain itself, even at these prices. Don't go making stuff up please...

Also, I could race every hour on the hour for 24 hours straight if I wanted to. Then there's testing, qualifying, time trials...anything in between.

Quote from spanks :

Regardless of the 20 million they have sunk with $0 coming in, do you realize how much money it takes to keep the doors open at a company like that? The salaries and server costs alone probably put them break even. Its no where near the size yet it needs to be to sustain itself, even at these prices.

So it's not just alienating racers, but it's also commercially unsustainable. Way to go, hiPricing!

Quote from spanks :

Also, I could race every hour on the hour for 24 hours straight if I wanted to. Then there's testing, qualifying, time trials...anything in between.

How many people do you know with more than a couple of hours free in the evenings who can spare the subscription fees? Most of us find a few hours a week at best for playing computer games. If you like to spend that time racing, iRacing is poor value.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

So it's not just alienating racers, but it's also commercially unsustainable. Way to go, hiPricing!



How many people do you know with more than a couple of hours free in the evenings who can spare the subscription fees? Most of us find a few hours a week at best for playing computer games. If you like to spend that time racing, iRacing is poor value.

For christ sake it went public what, 3 months ago? Investments have turn around periods. When you start up any business you're in debt to an investor for years...or forever until they foreclose on you...which seems more common these days sadly.

They have the owner of the red socks and part owner of Rousch Fenway racing backing them thoroughly...its his project, I doubt its going anywhere (unless baseball does).

All I'm trying to say (multiple times now) is that just because the system doesn't work for you in some way or another doesn't make it bad, or worthy of being shit on.

Saving 3 trips to starbucks will get you one month of iracing btw, its not all that expensive...people compare it to real racing and track days and stuff. How about compare it to other comfort items in our lives that we don't really need.

Quote from spanks :

All I'm trying to say (multiple times now) is that just because the system doesn't work for you in some way or another doesn't make it bad, or worthy of being shit on.

I'm not "shitting on" anything, I just think it's weird (and infuriating - when I was a subscriber) that a multiplayer-oriented game has such a lousy multiplayer setup.

Quote from spanks :

Saving 3 trips to starbucks will get you one month of iracing btw,

I wouldn't go to Starbucks if you paid me.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

So it's not just alienating racers, but it's also commercially unsustainable. Way to go, hiPricing!

Well, it's hard to say anything about being commercially unsustainable yet, with the very little info we have on what's going behind the scenes. A couple of months ago John Henry said on the forums, "I expect that for the first ten years or so there will be a constant debate as to whether or not we'll ultimately be successful."

The current high prices for the content must mean, in my opinion, that they haven't even assumed to get that many subscriptions at this point. If scanning a track on average costs $100,000 (which is some number I've seen, could be a lot more and/or vary a lot), about 5000 buyers for a track would be enough to cover the costs at the current prices.

I don't believe that the pricing system has anything to do with keeping people out. They have just estimated a low number of prospective users in the short term, and determined the content prices based on that.

Quote :

I don't believe that the pricing system has anything to do with keeping people out.

If that's true, then I guess I'm prepared to change my view again. I only read that that was the case from someone on this (LFS) forum somewhere (edit: this post). I understand that there are immense costs involved with developing iRacing, but then the same holds true for any triple A title being developed these days. It still seems expensive to me.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

If that's true, then I guess I'm prepared to change my view again. I only read that that was the case from someone on this (LFS) forum somewhere (edit: this post). I understand that there are immense costs involved with developing iRacing, but then the same holds true for any triple A title being developed these days. It still seems expensive to me.

I've read posts arguing that the high pricing helps keep wreckers out, but it has all been pure speculation by non-staff members, and I don't see any reason for it to actually be a factor in the prices.

For me the $13 a month is a reasonable fee for the servers, stats, the organized series, constant updates to the game engine and website, working safety rating system, having a steward to protest to for on-track incidents etc. I'd prefer it be lower, but it's not that expensive if you go for a year, considering the amount of work the staff does on all aspects of the service all the time.

The content price, on the other hand, is too high for me to buy everything I'm interested in. I would love to do more of the ovals, for example, but financially I can't do it. However, the price for development at the level of detail iRacing has chosen leads to a really high cost per vehicle and track. They can't lower the prices so that they would effectively make losses with every piece of content that is bought. But since there are no variable costs involved in selling the content to more people, I could see the content prices going down as the user base grows.

Another option would of course be to cover the expenses of developing content by raising the monthly fee and lowering the content prices, but I don't think that would lead to more subscribers, either. At least this way we can choose what type of content we are paying for.

Still another option would be to just make (even bigger) losses with the content at the beginning in the hopes of attracting more people in. Even with the prices they have now I don't think they're getting even with much of the content just yet.

But I don't really worry about it too much. They have the numbers, we don't. Maybe they are better off with conservative predictions of the number of users they could have in the short term.

Quote from Liff :

I've read posts arguing that the high pricing helps keep wreckers out, but it has all been pure speculation by non-staff members, and I don't see any reason for it to actually be a factor in the prices.

The statement is actually fact, it was stated by staff members during posts that I was involved with during the beta period.