There are a few drivers left who are as (or not more) talented as Hamilton. Just they s**k with weak teams. Oh yeah, his 2nd season in F1 and already WC... McLaren is not bad for a first team...
There are a few drivers left who are as (or not more) talented as Hamilton. Just they s**k with weak teams. Oh yeah, his 2nd season in F1 and already WC... McLaren is not bad for a first team...
Maybe I will turn into an American, because, obviously, we all know saying "what" makes you American.
And yes, racial attacks are a jibe, and can obviously be compared with mickey takes out of someone's wierd noses or 'boring' personalities. (And it's more than a few people, iirc basically the entire grandstand along the start/finish in Sau Paulo was booing towards Hamilton.
Nationality, along with his race, age and natural (and very high) talent put the other drivers' noses out of place. (No pun there)
As for testing, what, (
)don't Ferrari and Renault have championship winning cars? Renault didn't at the beginning of the season, but hey, people improve their shit. They also have much more 'experienced' drivers so any advantages McLaren may have had are cancelled out by the more 'experienced' other teams, if that's came out clearly. I get confused thinking about that. 
Toki - Yeah, and the point is? McLaren saw his talent at a young age and snapped him up. Ferrari, Renault or any other team probbably could have done the same, but no.
And yes, racial attacks are a jibe, and can obviously be compared with mickey takes out of someone's wierd noses or 'boring' personalities. (And it's more than a few people, iirc basically the entire grandstand along the start/finish in Sau Paulo was booing towards Hamilton.
Nationality, along with his race, age and natural (and very high) talent put the other drivers' noses out of place. (No pun there)
As for testing, what, (
)don't Ferrari and Renault have championship winning cars? Renault didn't at the beginning of the season, but hey, people improve their shit. They also have much more 'experienced' drivers so any advantages McLaren may have had are cancelled out by the more 'experienced' other teams, if that's came out clearly. I get confused thinking about that. Toki - Yeah, and the point is? McLaren saw his talent at a young age and snapped him up. Ferrari, Renault or any other team probbably could have done the same, but no.
What, like what is that that supposed to mean? what what what...
which in a country with the largest black population anywhere outside of africa is obviously racily motivated and has nothing to do with hamilton directly competing against a brazilian guy
So you think because BRAZILIAN fans were booing a BRITISH driver it was a racist attack? Isn't it more likely they just wanted 'their' driver to win? Which, to be fair, he should have as he was the one that didn't drive like a complete twat during the final race.
Or just the fact he is a liability on the track? Ever noticed how all the drivers seems to love the people naturally quicker than Hamilton?
Tell me which other novice driver did more than 10,000 miles of testing in a 'current-spec' (at the time) F1 car prior to his first race? Yes, it counts for a lot more than having another experienced driver in the car, because the other drivers experience doesn't actually make the rookie better.
Right, so there we are. It's not Hamilton that's amazing, but McLaren. I-thank-you.
Wait now hung on.
If they happen to boo Hamilton that makes them a racist, it couldn't be that Lewis was up against their own boy.
Lets not forget the British fans cheering when Schumy crashed at Silverstone, or when DC crashed out while leading in a Mclaren (it did happen) in Italy and being spat on by the fans, lets ignore these issues and focus on some perfectly logical booing if you were to take of those rose tinted specs.This is what I hate about Hamilton 'fan boys'. They seem to assume that if you say anything negative about him then theres some racial tone/ thinking behind it. I don't like Hamilton purely because I can't relate to him, and I feel no warmth towards him. I don't hate him and believe it or not I don't see him as a black driver either, he's just another driver who can get a car around the track very very fast.
Ok ok ok, obviously my opinion is vastly different from everyone elses (
) so lemme just say this instead of getting into heated debates with other people, and commenting in direct response to individual points, which is not what I came into this thread to do.
Hamilton has got talent, no doubt.
Tristan - You didn't even read what I said, did you? I said that McLaren saw Hamiltons talent and snapped him up (teamwise), and that Ferrari, if they were thinking, could have done the same. Give Hamilton a Ferrari and I'm sure he'd have won the championship just as well. Obviously, the McLaren has helped him no end, but, no matter what anyone says, you still need the skills to drive the car. Put that into perspective, if we plonked you into the McLaren F1 team for 2 seasons, you'd be able to win a championship in your 2nd season? And be runner up in your first? Didn't think so.
In general, (Mackie and Tristan) no, it wasn't the booing that I thought was a racial attack. I happened to watch the F1 race, and afterwards when Anthony Hamilton was talking about it, I think it may have been on another program or something, (can't remember), he was talking about the racial insults that they had been recieving, not just ONLY in Brazil, but across the entire F1 season.
May I also make it clear that I am in no way a 'fan boy' of Hamilton. The final round was probbably the only full F1 race I have watched, and probbably only the 3rd time F1 had been on my TV at all this season. Why do I 'support' Hamilton? He's British, simple as that. Not really being a fan-boy. I hardly watch F1, and I'm definatly not a 'fan of the sport', so please...
) so lemme just say this instead of getting into heated debates with other people, and commenting in direct response to individual points, which is not what I came into this thread to do.Hamilton has got talent, no doubt.
Tristan - You didn't even read what I said, did you? I said that McLaren saw Hamiltons talent and snapped him up (teamwise), and that Ferrari, if they were thinking, could have done the same. Give Hamilton a Ferrari and I'm sure he'd have won the championship just as well. Obviously, the McLaren has helped him no end, but, no matter what anyone says, you still need the skills to drive the car. Put that into perspective, if we plonked you into the McLaren F1 team for 2 seasons, you'd be able to win a championship in your 2nd season? And be runner up in your first? Didn't think so.
In general, (Mackie and Tristan) no, it wasn't the booing that I thought was a racial attack. I happened to watch the F1 race, and afterwards when Anthony Hamilton was talking about it, I think it may have been on another program or something, (can't remember), he was talking about the racial insults that they had been recieving, not just ONLY in Brazil, but across the entire F1 season.
May I also make it clear that I am in no way a 'fan boy' of Hamilton. The final round was probbably the only full F1 race I have watched, and probbably only the 3rd time F1 had been on my TV at all this season. Why do I 'support' Hamilton? He's British, simple as that. Not really being a fan-boy. I hardly watch F1, and I'm definatly not a 'fan of the sport', so please...
The problem is that they, and the media, consider any booing as racial abuse. I'm not saying that there hasn't been any before, it's a sad world we live in, but it gets blown over the top at times.
I didn't consider the booing to be racially motivated. I just considered it to be crass and below the standard of behaviour that I think is acceptable in F1. Cheering your guy I think is exactly what you should be doing. Booing his competitor is crass. Booing his competitor's father, brother, girlfriend.. well that is beneath even soccer terrace mentality, and that's considered to be the scurge of popular sports. I was just sickened to see it becoming the scurge of F1. But racist it was not.
You obviously haven't been to a Gillingham game.
I do agree though. I honestly don't think that had the same situation happened against a british driver, we would not have been treated the driver who beat "our" driver so badly.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the majority of that simulator testing?
expect for the cheering when Schumy crashed in Silverstone, breaking his leg in the process
Some of it was, but a VAST amount of it was circuit time.
He's in F1, so that's a given. They all have talent at a level mere mortals can't match.
I certainly did.
You know that for a fact? Even though the Ferrari was sort of the opposite of the McLaren. Well, I put to you that if Kimi had had the McLaren (front endy, and works it's tyres harder) he would have blitzed the championship.
Had I had most of my racing career paid for by McLaren, ensuring I always had the best equipment, the most testing, the best teams, the best engineers within those teams (and don't tell me that wouldn't have been part of the contracts - any businessman would do it), and bascially been groomed solely as a McLaren F1 driven since I was 10 or thereabouts, then yes, I think I might have had a chance (assuming I got picked in the first place).
Do you forget how quick Schumacher, Senna, Bellof, Kubica, Alonso were on their debuts with (in some cases) no testing to speak of at all?
He's made the typical black-man mistake of mistaking not being liked for being a twatty, clingy Dad to a robotic McLaren-machine for a racial attack. I hate it when blacks (and it usually is them) claim that ANYTHING against them is racist. That in itself is vastly MORE racist than the initial attack. Maybe 20 or 30 fans used racism in their taunts. But the rest just don't like the pair.
Evidence suggests otherwise.
Then you probably know far too few of the facts, the political nuances of the sport and the backroom scene to be able to comment on any of the drivers relative abilities. Anyone (and I do mean anyone) who watched the full season simply has to place Kubica and Alonso on a higher plane than Hamilton. And Massa would be right there next to him, with Vettel.
Such a long thread when it could be summed up in one short sentence. White chocolate > dark chocolate.
don't take serious!
don't take serious!
Well obviously you still need skill to drive the car. But let me remind you Lewis won the WDC by 1 point. The driver he beat was only in his 3rd season in a car that gave him the oportunity to do so, (and arguably he was never going to be let win in the first of those as he was Schumachers team mate
). So personally I don't see a huge difference between them. The point being who else on the grid could win a WDC in their first or second season in a car that is actually competitive? I think you'll find there are a few drivers out there that could equal or better Lewis's acheivement.
Also, it can hardly be fairly claimed that he is an F1 rookie when he has the equivilent of around 3 seasons worth of mileage in an F1 car as a test driver behind him.
People keep glossing over the point that he went straight in to a competitive car and some how seem to think this makes him spectacularly talented. It doesn't, it makes him spectacularly lucky. IF he hadn't had such luck and had been picked up by one of the lower teams for his first season and then after maybe 2 or 3 seasons moved up to a competitive car and took a couple of seasons in it to get his WDC would we be having this conversation? Would he be being compared with Senna? No, on both counts. So lets drop the "Lewis is an F1 god" bit and compare him with what his peers could have acheived given the same opportunity as him, and then we'd see that he isn't all that spectacular at all. Certainly one of the better drivers sure, but an F1 God he's not. Not yet anyway.
A comparison:
Lewis WDC in his second season in a competive car.
Villenueve WDC in his second season in a competitive car.
Alonso WDC in his third season in a competitive car.
Schumacher WDC in his third season in a competitive car (arguably the first season the benneton was actually competitive).
Senna WDC in his first season in a competitive car.
Hill WDC in his third season in a competitive car.
Lauda WDC in his second season in a competitive car.
I use the term competitive in a loose way as clearly some of their cars were more competitive than others.
All valid points Tristan, however since you still 'think you know' (because obviously, you knows everything) that I'm a fanboy of Hamilton (even though I don't even watch the ****ing sport, that says enough), I have nothing further to say to you. 
Ok so, Gezmoor..
Hmm well, as said in The Fast and The Furious, doesn't matter if you win by a metre or a mile, winning is winning.
I'm guessing that Massa in the Ferrari, and Hamilton in the McLaren are used to their cars traits and therefore overall, are pretty simular in terms of pace. The fact Hamilton won the championship by a mere one points just sums up what an eventful season it was, (Guessing, didn't watch most of them) and how well they can handle their respective cars foibles.
Maybe so, but if you put, for example, Coulthard, or any other crappy driver into a McLaren car, he'd/they'd probbably only finish one or two places high in any given race, and definatly won't magically become a WC.
No, I think that makes him talented enough to be able to get into such a position in the first place.
Maybe, but who knows? You're making guesses and shots into the dark with no real proof to back up your theories. If he had joined with Red Bull Racing or whatever, for example, he may have won the WDC this season, or he may not have. But irrespective, he wasn't in a less 'competitive' car and so you (or I) can't make guesses.
Senna is in a different league to Hamilton, so why don't we wait and see what happens in the next few seasons.
Never said that, never thought that.
They aren't WDC's
Each car has their benefits and drawbacks, and each of the drivers in their own cars make the best of that. The fact the Ferrari and McLaren of Massa and Hamilton were so close all season, and finished with only 1 point in it really says enough of that.
Please see the "senna" part
All of which were terribly fantastic drivers, legends if you will. Hamilton is young, and Alonso is still there somewhere. So you've just basically said that all the great drivers get the best teams. Wait, I thought that's how it worked.
Ok so, Gezmoor..
Hmm well, as said in The Fast and The Furious, doesn't matter if you win by a metre or a mile, winning is winning.
I'm guessing that Massa in the Ferrari, and Hamilton in the McLaren are used to their cars traits and therefore overall, are pretty simular in terms of pace. The fact Hamilton won the championship by a mere one points just sums up what an eventful season it was, (Guessing, didn't watch most of them
) and how well they can handle their respective cars foibles.Maybe so, but if you put, for example, Coulthard, or any other crappy driver into a McLaren car, he'd/they'd probbably only finish one or two places high in any given race, and definatly won't magically become a WC.
No, I think that makes him talented enough to be able to get into such a position in the first place.
Maybe, but who knows? You're making guesses and shots into the dark with no real proof to back up your theories. If he had joined with Red Bull Racing or whatever, for example, he may have won the WDC this season, or he may not have. But irrespective, he wasn't in a less 'competitive' car and so you (or I) can't make guesses.
Senna is in a different league to Hamilton, so why don't we wait and see what happens in the next few seasons.
Never said that, never thought that.
They aren't WDC's
Each car has their benefits and drawbacks, and each of the drivers in their own cars make the best of that. The fact the Ferrari and McLaren of Massa and Hamilton were so close all season, and finished with only 1 point in it really says enough of that.
Please see the "senna" part
All of which were terribly fantastic drivers, legends if you will. Hamilton is young, and Alonso is still there somewhere. So you've just basically said that all the great drivers get the best teams. Wait, I thought that's how it worked.
Yeh, it's kinda silly how he's ALWAYS there, give the boy some room, you moron. Let him have his 10 minutes of fame.
I think it's very hard for some people to digest that Hamilton is 100% the real deal. Having been there and witness Hamilton's career day one, unlike other people who only heared about him 2 years ago!
And when I say 'been there' I mean on the same track, and the same time. Back in 1996 the British Cadet Championship was probably at it's peak and the competition was out of this freakin' world. Lewis was head and shoulder's above everyone. He was simply THAT good.
It's also a myth that hamilton always got the best equipment. In 2001 when partnered with Dino Chiesa to develop a chassis, him and Rosberg struggled immensely. I believe issues with developing on a tyre that then was changed by the CIK caused the issues. Formula Super A would have been the last true 'development' class Hamilton would have driven in before he reached F1, and also the last class that would have included real professionals before F1.
Also remember that McLaren signed up another driver at the time they signed Hamilton. he failed to make an impact. So being signed to McLaren or an f1 team doesn't mean guaranteed success.
Lewis still had to perform. 2001, when he failed to conquer the top of the karting ladder, was the only time he 'failed'. That's fair enough he was up against professionals, and had chassis issues.
Then let's look at his car career. Yes he did have the best teams, and the best car, BUT he delivered in EVERY class. Apart from the Karting World Championship he has conquered everything he has ever raced in.
I do find Tristan's comments interesting because I have listened to the exact same views since Hamilton was signed by McLaren all those years ago. I recall talking to Damon Hill, and some guy was with us spouting the same nonsence back in late 06. I assured Damon that this was rubbish and that hamilton would deliver a F1 WDC in a McLaren.... which... he... did!
I actually think McLaren's biggest mistake with Hamilton was making him wait so long. I don't Hamilton is a much better driver now than he was 4 or 5 years ago. He's made more errors in F1 than I ever have recalled him doing in any class.
Having actually been there, and witnessed with my own eyes what Hamilton has achieved since 1995 you have a different perspective on things. he's made some silly errors but he has still come through and delivered an F1 WDC!
Is he better than Schumi or Senna? It's a stupid question because it's one that will never be answered. At the moment it is clear he has some way to go to get close to these guys...but has he the potential? obviously
why do people hate Hamilton? coz he's a winner and the British don't like winners! Everyone hates Andy Murray and he's one of the world's best players! Mind you everyone loves Phil Taylor!
And when I say 'been there' I mean on the same track, and the same time. Back in 1996 the British Cadet Championship was probably at it's peak and the competition was out of this freakin' world. Lewis was head and shoulder's above everyone. He was simply THAT good.
It's also a myth that hamilton always got the best equipment. In 2001 when partnered with Dino Chiesa to develop a chassis, him and Rosberg struggled immensely. I believe issues with developing on a tyre that then was changed by the CIK caused the issues. Formula Super A would have been the last true 'development' class Hamilton would have driven in before he reached F1, and also the last class that would have included real professionals before F1.
Also remember that McLaren signed up another driver at the time they signed Hamilton. he failed to make an impact. So being signed to McLaren or an f1 team doesn't mean guaranteed success.
Lewis still had to perform. 2001, when he failed to conquer the top of the karting ladder, was the only time he 'failed'. That's fair enough he was up against professionals, and had chassis issues.
Then let's look at his car career. Yes he did have the best teams, and the best car, BUT he delivered in EVERY class. Apart from the Karting World Championship he has conquered everything he has ever raced in.
I do find Tristan's comments interesting because I have listened to the exact same views since Hamilton was signed by McLaren all those years ago. I recall talking to Damon Hill, and some guy was with us spouting the same nonsence back in late 06. I assured Damon that this was rubbish and that hamilton would deliver a F1 WDC in a McLaren.... which... he... did!
I actually think McLaren's biggest mistake with Hamilton was making him wait so long. I don't Hamilton is a much better driver now than he was 4 or 5 years ago. He's made more errors in F1 than I ever have recalled him doing in any class.
Having actually been there, and witnessed with my own eyes what Hamilton has achieved since 1995 you have a different perspective on things. he's made some silly errors but he has still come through and delivered an F1 WDC!
Is he better than Schumi or Senna? It's a stupid question because it's one that will never be answered. At the moment it is clear he has some way to go to get close to these guys...but has he the potential? obviously
why do people hate Hamilton? coz he's a winner and the British don't like winners! Everyone hates Andy Murray and he's one of the world's best players! Mind you everyone loves Phil Taylor!
What ain't no country I ever heard of, They speak english in what?
Say what again! I dare you! I double dare you!
Say what again! I dare you! I double dare you!
Yes yes, we know and we heard you the first fifteen times when you shouted about being LH's biggest fanboy.
ps - I like winners, people with talent and charisma. I don't like robots - go figure
I also don't seem to recall similar issues being aired about Mansell or Hill? Now why would that be........
I think Alan (Intrepid) is a year or two younger than Hamilton. So, when Hamilton was 10, I doubt Alan spent much time drinking tea and eating biscuits pondering the relative merits of that years crop of karters. There might have been a meet&greet session arranged at his local track with Hill, but I doubt more than one sentence was exchanged between them.
Therefore I do not believe his story. I do, however, believe that he probably knew a bit about Hamilton earlier in his career than most, but probably never actually raced him on the same track at the same time. They might have been in the same paddock at the same time once or twice, but it's probably reading karting magazines that informed him the most.
I wonder if Alan can explain, with his vast knowledge of Hamilton, just what makes him SO bad under pressure? Even some of the greats in the past have been bit weak under pressure, but not that weak.
Therefore I do not believe his story. I do, however, believe that he probably knew a bit about Hamilton earlier in his career than most, but probably never actually raced him on the same track at the same time. They might have been in the same paddock at the same time once or twice, but it's probably reading karting magazines that informed him the most.
I wonder if Alan can explain, with his vast knowledge of Hamilton, just what makes him SO bad under pressure? Even some of the greats in the past have been bit weak under pressure, but not that weak.
I have actually been on the same track, at the same time as the great John Reynolds and I can testify to his amazing speed and talent.....
He was on his race prepped superbike and I was only on a lowly road legal 600 sports bike but hey
well kimi chose to leave mclaren for ferrari so i guess you make your bed and lie in it. also ferrari had plenty of abiltity to build front endy cars for schumacher even when it penalised the other team driver so you have to assume that either kimi didn't give them enough feedback from testing or they decided that they had more chance by not creating a car that favoured him over massa
meet and greet with Damon... lol. Damon spent quite a lot of time at the kart track in recent years brushing up.Him and his son did quite a lot of racing in the Club100 series - http://www.club100.co.uk/race-reports/sprint_2007_rd03hw.htm . We helped his son out for a day with some coachin (Josh is very talented). It's not that big a deal, Formula 1 drivers often frequent the kart track. I was down in France with Mika Hakkinen not too long ago
here's mika
and here's me in the other one
I do not proclaim to even be acquaintances with these people but it's very common to chat to F1 drivers/bosses. If you go karting a lot you'll see a lot of F1 drivers. I only just missed out on being in Sienna last weekend where Kubica was racing
You may think these guys are out of reach but they are just normal people who like to go karting and racing. Maybe if you weren't so snobby about karting you may able to chat to these people too!anyway enough of me trying to prove what I say actually happens!
Why does Lewis not handle the pressure so well? Well you have to remember he didn't have the luxury of being in a lower team and making all his mistakes out of view. No other driver has come that close to winning in his first year. It's much much more pressure than what other rookie drivers have to deal with.
I also believe McLaren made a mistake putting him in GP2. A more youthful Hamilton would have beaten the Hamilton we see today.
Or made even more stupid mistakes and DNFed in every second race.
Why do people hate Hamilton so much?
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