Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

1. The lack of communication between the developers & the community.

A long paragraph to say that we are insecure about the LFS future if we have no communication.

2. The lack of frequent LFS updates & the slowing development cycle.

A lot of "perhaps" which clearly states he has no answer for this question

3. To combat the prolonged lack of updates people suggest increasing the workforce.

An interesting thought about why they don't increase the labour force.
Then a big paragraph of rant toward the old timers.

------

Stating the obivous : LFS is alive and people play online with it. I bet it took long and painful observations to reach that conclusion.

1. No communication = risk of nothing going on.

And you can't tell me I'm wrong. Just check the www.lfs.net homepage. There are news every 6 monthes (except for the Scirocco). No communication can clearly indicated that : either there is nothing going on / either there are really bad news and people shouldn't be told about to preserve the LFS income. We do not ask for much. We do ask for a periodic information (could be every month, or every month and a half, I would not like to have the devs do a daily newsletter and it would turn their work into more of a reality show than a gaming development).

Plus, the communication could boost the developpers productivity ? How ? This is simple : tell everyone you're almost finished with the detachable parts model and you will receive more than 200 posts like "Keep up the good work !", "Go Scavier Go !" or "Scawen, please make love with me !" in less than an hour. Of course, some people will bitch about the fact that it isn't released yet, but it is better to have 90% of support than 90% of opposition. C'est bon pour le moral. (saying my home language words in italic like in the books is simply orgasmic). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twDhig0L97Q

2. Live For Speed's updates take long to come.

It is true, but we can't deny that they are well appreciated. As time goes by, Scavier will attack itself to feature that are harder to program. But what is feelable is that most of the time, the improvement in each patch are mostly coding improvement, and not really content (in sense of cars/tracks/etc). Which can lead us to think that Eric is barely working. Since this number two is the number of perhapses, I will risk one : Perhaps Eric is hardcore working to have the S3 content amazingly rich. If it is the case, that would go back to point 1 : a bit of teasing like "Hey community, I have done 75% of the S3 content, but I won't give you any information about it untill it is released in a couple of monthes or by fall 2009" would be greatly appreciated, create a positive stress among the community, more talking, more interest from potential S2 buyers --> More cash.

People are negatively stressed, because slower updates lead them to think that S2 is starting to stagnate.

3. We are right to suggest the increase in the labour force.

Because with the simple equation : Labour Force = X(Content) + Y(Physics) - Z(Individual Profit). If we double the labour force, we will have : 2(Labour Force) = 2X(Content) + 2Y(Physics) - 2Z (Individual Profit). I have to say that X, Y and Z are likely to be between 0 and 1 or an exponential number so that X = r(e^x), Y = t(e^y) and Z = u(e^z).
r and t are coefficient in the importance given to that field, and x and y are the productivity in each field. About Z, it isn't like this, but it was fun to write it like this.

The only thing in that model is that there are only 2 variables that affect the sales : Content and Physics.
So if Sales = A(Content) + B(Physics) + C(Content x Physics)
(A is the coefficient of people who buy LFS for the content, B for the physics and C for both of them, so basically A are long-time demoers that buy S1 or S2, B are demoers, and C are people who bought LFS after a small tryout in demo).

If the Labour Force increase, you will have more subscribers because of improved physics and diversified content (which will reach a broader market share). And Live For Speed would have better financial ressources. Of course, it won't if the labour costs more than it produces, but there is no model who can calculate this.
So either you think in term of costs, either you think in terms of future earnings. This will be the difference between a good ressource manager and a good development manager. Either you stabilize your earnings/expenditure ratio, either you invest more (time + money), to improve your earnings in the future.

Since Scawen, Eric and Viktor are development managers from day 1 (LFS was extremely risky and would cost a lot of time/money), they should not become ressource managers, which will lead to the great stagnation of LFS, but as opposed to that : invest more, like they did in day 1, to improve the quality of their baby.

-------------

Just to reply to the rant against old time players. You are wrong. You are wrong, because you are deeply wrong. You are deeply wrong because you are extremely wrong. And you are extremely wrong but you contradict yourself in your own post. I know it's hard to focus for posts that long, but if you manage well, you can pretend to beat me in the "long'arse posts" community year end award. (Which isn't yet running, but I hope people will recognize my dedication).
You say : why should they care about old timers, because they don't give any money in the present for the devs. They actually do care about old timers, because the newcomers do not seem to bring them enough money.
Why ? Simply look at the Scirocco, which is a clear example showing that they were paid really well by VW to include it in. If their subscription cash pool was sufficient enough, they would have chosen a car that reflected better the spirit of Live For Speed, such as the Race About : independent, performant, sexy, future-oriented.

I am not ranting against the Scirocco, and I even think that having a 2000ish mass production turbo FWD with TC will be fun to test spin.

It just shows that they wanted big cash, and they also pleased people waiting for new content. It proves that they care at least as well about the old timers than about the new comers.

----------

I posted the link to the video for some specific reasons and not a random creol music video :

1) It is a very good illustration of my point : more communication = more support = more productivity. From 1:05 to 2:00, a guy cuts fruits. It seems really painfull. However, people come to support him because they know that he is doing it to please them. So, they come support him, and he cuts fruits faster. And someone even comes after to help him. Without communication, it would take more than a minute to cut enough fruits, he would be pissed, not enjoy the party and people would not be as impressed when he brings a whole tray of fruits, than they were when they were waiting for him to cut them, because they knew he was.

2) It is a sheer music that will reduce the tension here and increase the friendliness of the people !

I figure there are other LFS communities out there for the Spanish players, German players, etc. I sometimes wonder if they have these discussions all the time too.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

Those drivers can get up & leave, slamming the door behind them as hard as they want to make it known,

Well I've heard that reply so many times in another game community that it has made me sick. If some people are vocal about their insatisfaction is because they really feel it and they hope that talking about that can change something for the better.

Along the same lines one could reply, if you're sick of reading people moaning about the slowness of the updates ...stop reading those posts. OTOH some people in the past have become a little annoying and offensive in their rants so I guess your position is plenty understandable.

Quote from UncleBenny :

I figure there are other LFS communities out there for the Spanish players, German players, etc. I sometimes wonder if they have these discussions all the time too.

German Forum topics:
Vat beer do you drink Stefan?
Oh no - mein steering wheel is exactly 0.001mm off center!! nein!!

Spanish Forum topics:
Lewis Hamilton is a w***er
Let's form a spanish version of the BNP
Physics Help Thread, with Lerts

Quote from Zen321 :

1. No communication = risk of nothing going on.



2. Live For Speed's updates take long to come.



3. We are right to suggest the increase in the labour force.

In a few lines, here is what happends when a programmer opens their mouths too much.....

$Goal1 = 'public announcement';

.$Goal1 = 'superduper great idea';
.$Goal1 = 'but i want more then you can offer right now';
.$Gaol1 = 'your not meeting your dead lines!!';

if $Goal1 (!= In_Control)

do {

if ($client != '')
{ echo 'Public Appology that will never be good enough';}
else
{ echo 'Nothing. There is no reason to start a fire in my own own back yard';}

while } $communitry == :worried:;

It just makes more work for them to do.

Quote from Zen321 :

If their subscription cash pool was sufficient enough, they would have chosen a car that reflected better the spirit of Live For Speed, such as the Race About : independent, performant, sexy, future-oriented.

That the Raceabout would reflect the spirit of LfS hits me as a bit of an overstatement, you're just taking wild guesses or do you have links to threads to support it?

We don't know why they accepted the VW rather than say, the DP1, everything is just an experiment in telepathy, trying to tell what's really crossing those three minds (but I'll be glad to stand corrected)

Maybe they have chosen the include the Scirocco because the VW brand is extremely well recognized and one of the biggest automakers in the world, and thus LfS has gained a lot more visibility outside the circle of autosimmers just because of that.

VW latest brainchild is likely more well known rather than a fascinating but obscure prototype.

Just wanted to pick you up on a couple of things in your rant.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

why exactly would it matter even if large numbers of long-time players leave LFS??

The commercial loss for Scavier would be if these people don't fork out for S3.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

90% of those players leaving have used LFS for a long time indeed & have now grown bored of it. That's to be expected after 6-odd years & that's their problem.

I have not grown bored of LFS as a piece of software, or as a concept. I've grown bored of it's current content and grown tired of the slowing development cycle. There's a difference.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

But the developers shouldn't change their ways just because a fraction of old-timers are getting impatient.

As you said yourself the 'old timers' know how the developers work, so it's concerning that it is these people who are becoming impatient after all this time.
Generally, the 'old timers' are the most patient people in the community.

Quote from jbirdaspec :

In a few lines, here is what happends when a programmer opens their mouths too much.....

$Goal1 = 'public announcement';

.$Goal1 = 'superduper great idea';
.$Goal1 = 'but i want more then you can offer right now';
.$Gaol1 = 'your not meeting your dead lines!!';

if $Goal1 (!= In_Control)

do {

if ($client != '')
{ echo 'Public Appology that will never be good enough';}
else
{ echo 'Nothing. There is no reason to start a fire in my own own back yard';}

while } $communitry == :worried:;

It just makes more work for them to do.

This is a wrong program code, because this is assuming someone already programmed the three answers to a public annoucement to be those. And as I don't beleive in god (that's why I write his name without capital letters, because he is a mere concept), I don't think such a code exists.

Of course it will make more work for them. But Live For Speed is not their hobby, it is the thing that make them eat, pay their rent, go to clubs etc. You need to have strictness in your work, they have it, that is not the point. More work = more rate of return concerning time/money spent in developping their game, so this is a win-win situation for both. Business is only about win-win situations.

You know, I am really hopeful.

I would really like to see what happens with LFS, and I would love to see the community grow.

farcar, Old timers probably are more patient because they like the way the game is right now, so any further improvement is just a bonus, not a necessity for them to enjoy it.

They also have come to understand this is the way the devs work, and that what many newcomers are suggesting has been suggested many times before.

If you don't like the ways thigs are right now, you can make a topic about your suggestion in the improvement sections, but saying "we want this and that" is like me going to your house telling you when to buy new furniture.

PS: hey Taylor

LFS will eventually die off. That's a given. It can't go on forever

I've voted for the "content update within the next year" option, which is pretty much a given, too.

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

Right, periodic information... It hasn't happened before so why should it now?
Right, in the past we did not have airplanes, the world went well, why should it have happened? We did not happen to have condoms before as well, why should it have happened? We did not have MD's back in the middle age, why should it have happened? If you are clearly against progress, then I guess it is pointless to try to explain that NOTHING can run for a long period of time without having to adapt itself. Especially in businesses, with our fast changing times.

Giving the community periodic updates on what's being done & when just isn't how Scavier likes do things. They've made that clear numerous times, it's not so hard to understand is it?
And we made it clear as well that we would appreciate having them, and for what reasons. Sometimes, in ordre to keep your project running on for longer, you have to make sacrifices from your original view in order to adapt it. Without adaptation, LFS is going to die, as it is normal in every other field of life.
I think it's all about peace of mind people are looking for & to be told, or even better, to be shown that LFS is still going strong... especially during this period of time.
True, because people enjoy the sim, and if Scavier goes to bankruptcy, it means that they won't be able to play anymore (no master server). As I told earlier, this is a win-win situation : new updates/better communication, the community is still alive, the sim gets enough subscriptions, both side are happy and LFS keeps running for long.
Also i'll add that i don't think they need a few measly posts of encouragement to enthuse their productivity rate, although i'd guess they are appreciated.
It is acceptable within the reac of common sense that having some warm posts about how great the job is than having that kind of threads popping up with a frightening frequency. Once again, I won't try to explain to you, because this is common sense, and basic logic that I think you are able to understand, if my 8 yo sister can.

Clearly! You're absolutley right there, i don't have the answer or the reason behind the infrequent updates. Who does but the devs themselves?
We can speculate all we like as to the reasons why, and it basically boils down to either they're working hard or the opposite of that. And how you look at that depends on how much of an optimist or pessimist you are. I guess i am an optimist as far this goes...
We agree on this point. We have no idea, just more or less plausible guesses. Maybe they have been shot by lerts ? Once again, it would not create that kind of tension about positive/negative speculation if information was released on a closer span of time.
But luckily for me i can still enjoy LFS as it is right now. It's a perfectly usable and above average sim as it is in it's current state. So the devs could pull the plug on it this very moment, kill it, finito, and i'd still be happy with it & still use it.
But I get the impression some people are using it with the thought of what's to come. It'd be a shame to not see it reach its maxiumum potential, but can you imagine the shitstorm if the development of LFS was stopped... it would be most amusing on the forums here!
But it's gotta stop sometime, nothing lasts forever...


I reckon they can manage their business & income just fine, as they have done for the past 6 or more years. I don't think it's for us to be concerned about really, even during these slow times. Although all this worrying is to be expected to a small degree.
We can feel concerned, because as I said earlier, we also have interests in seeing the product goes for long. This is why we genuinely offer to share our thoughts and reflections to the devs.

It wasn't a rant really. I could do much better than that for a rant!
So how did i contradict myself? Please explain, I don't see how i did...
The following lines of my original posts explain the contradiction.

What? No I didn't say that. I questioned why it matters if long-time players leave. I wasn't stating that there would be no problem. FarCar & S14 Drift gave answers to that question & both good points by the way.

And how do you know who they care about? You're making that assumption based on 'the newcomers don't seem to bring them enough money'. How do you know that?! They're probably pretty cushty when it comes to money, which is why they're in no rush to put out more content. Yup, again, that's me being the optimist!
As you were making the assumption that old timers leaving did not matter. If you do some business, you have to known that old time customers maybe are the most important part of your earnings. If those guys sticked with you for 5 years, then left, you might ask yourself if you are not doing something wrong.

By the way, stop being optimistic, you'll be disappointed in a lot of fields in life, trust me
If they were pretty 'custhy' as you say, then why should they add the Scirocco, something that had been planned in the last minute, and is mostly leading to a high £££ contract? Beware, I am not complaining about the choice and I would be happy if they had more £££ and I think that every new content is positive content, pretty much like the vast majority of people here, even if they complain.

How do you know they were paid really well?
It is an assumption : a big brand of car makers goes to see a small team of the best simulation, asking for their car to be in the game. This is a marketing operation to associate VW to serious simracing, and probably the next step in the race game industry. It gives an image of seriousness and concern about the future. Plus, LFS is their customer shares : car enthusiasts. If they like how well the Scirocco behaves, then they will buy it. Lfs gets paid as an advertiser, in this case, with also the new content as a way to upgrade itself. And I bet paid really really well, because it is not quite the kind of car that was supposed to be in the plans for the development. So Ithink a big paycheck was there Which is cool tbh

It appears you believe you know how the devs operate. What makes you think they'd spend the license earnings on purchasing the rights to a new car?


Maybe. Or maybe it was too good of an offer to refuse. With VW wanting a car in their sim they'd probably drop everything to grab that opportunity, regardless of how much they were paid.


And personally I don't think the VW has anything to do with looking after the old or new players, i think the devs are doing what they want when they want with their sim.

You misunderstood me. I said that the devs were caring about old timers to include a new car, and upgrade the content, rather than working on physics (maybe the choice was financially suggested by their bank account). VW has nothing to do with privilegiating a payer type against another

Every thing is in bold in the quote

" So the devs could pull the plug on it this very moment, kill it, finito, and i'd still be happy with it & still use it."
well, if that eventually does happen, i think it would be modded a lot cos probably "source code" or something like that, will be "given". i hope

Quote from LiveForBoobs :

farcar, Old timers probably are more patient because they like the way the game is right now, so any further improvement is just a bonus, not a necessity for them to enjoy it.

They also have come to understand this is the way the devs work, and that what many newcomers are suggesting has been suggested many times before.

You didn't even read my post did you? I think you just read the quote in TAYLOR-MANIA's post above. Go back an read my whole post. It might put things in to context for you and you'll realise you have made a moot point.

Quote from LiveForBoobs :

If you don't like the ways thigs are right now, you can make a topic about your suggestion in the improvement sections, but saying "we want this and that" is like me going to your house telling you when to buy new furniture.

If this was directed at me, then you've totally lost me. What are you on about?

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

What is my position?

|
v

Quote from TAYLOR-MANIA :

Those drivers can get up & leave, slamming the door behind them as hard as they want

This is the bit that I found interesting, cos it frequently popped up in a game community I've been a part of until recently.

Your suggestion is some users should stop venting their spleen on the boards, isn't it?

Quote from Zen321 :

How do you know they were paid really well?
It is an assumption : a big brand of car makers goes to see a small team of the best simulation, asking for their car to be in the game.

Well that's one way it could have happened. The other being the complete opposite of course. ie The devs realised they needed a "current" car in the game to attract new users and so they went to VW to beg them to allow them to use the car. A bit of a pitch later about how it would bring them kudos etc and a bit of payment from LFS to VW and the devs get the go ahead.

I think the second scenario is far more likely, with maybe the bit about money being paid not happening if the devs managed a really good sales pitch for LFS.

The reason I believe it was that way round?

a) I think it's highly unlikely that any top exec in VW would have ever heard of LFS, (it's a million to 1 shot that someone that high up in a global company is going to be spending their time on line playing a driving sim).

b) Even in the highly unlikely event that anyone in VW had even heard of LFS there isn't a chance in hell they would be interested in going out of their way to approach them to put their car in the game. What do they gain? there simply is absolutely zero marketing to be gained from it.

c) In the extremely unlikely event that someone in VW had thought it was a good idea to have one of their cars in LFS, hell would have to freeze over before they would pay the devs for such a "privilege". Much more likely in that exceptionally unlikely scenario is that the devs jumped at the chance and were falling over themselves to do it for free.

Remember, it would take a relatively senior person in VW to make a decision to allow a car of theirs to be licenced to end up in a game. We're talking a global corp here, not some niche car manufacturer looking for any avenue they can to promote their "garden shed" product. Global corps are extremely sensitive to product placement and positioning. A mistake in this respect can cost millions.

I don't think it's so unlikely the marketing people at VW came up with the idea to put their car in a game as a promotion tool. In the past other automakers made the same move. But in every other example I can think of, there has never been the chance to compare the car directly to similar RL cars.

LFS fits perfectly the bill: it does not currently offer a similar RL car(*) and it's not moddable.

(*) even if the FXO bears some resemblance to the Astra G Coupé, there are actually several differences and the model has been discontinued anyway.

Quote from gezmoor :

Well that's one way it could have happened. The other being the complete opposite of course. ie The devs realised they needed a "current" car in the game to attract new users and so they went to VW to beg them to allow them to use the car. A bit of a pitch later about how it would bring them kudos etc and a bit of payment from LFS to VW and the devs get the go ahead.

I think the second scenario is far more likely, with maybe the bit about money being paid not happening if the devs managed a really good sales pitch for LFS.

The reason I believe it was that way round?

a) I think it's highly unlikely that any top exec in VW would have ever heard of LFS, (it's a million to 1 shot that someone that high up in a global company is going to be spending their time on line playing a driving sim).

b) Even in the highly unlikely event that anyone in VW had even heard of LFS there isn't a chance in hell they would be interested in going out of their way to approach them to put their car in the game. What do they gain? there simply is absolutely zero marketing to be gained from it.

c) In the extremely unlikely event that someone in VW had thought it was a good idea to have one of their cars in LFS, hell would have to freeze over before they would pay the devs for such a "privilege". Much more likely in that exceptionally unlikely scenario is that the devs jumped at the chance and were falling over themselves to do it for free.

Remember, it would take a relatively senior person in VW to make a decision to allow a car of theirs to be licenced to end up in a game. We're talking a global corp here, not some niche car manufacturer looking for any avenue they can to promote their "garden shed" product. Global corps are extremely sensitive to product placement and positioning. A mistake in this respect can cost millions.

The devs have never approached a car maker to include (one of) their cars in LfS... Among others, Intel - also a global corporation - saw the potential of running their competition with LfS... VW needed someone to include their new car into a game/sim to run a competition to win/promote their new car on a three-day event and on relatively short notice, is it so hard to believe they went out to approach developers to do that? Why were still not driving that thing in LfS might be your product placement sensitive global corp at work...

Quote from Zen321 :

This is a wrong program code, because this is assuming someone already programmed the three answers to a public annoucement to be those. And as I don't beleive in god (that's why I write his name without capital letters, because he is a mere concept), I don't think such a code exists.

Of course it will make more work for them. But Live For Speed is not their hobby, it is the thing that make them eat, pay their rent, go to clubs etc. You need to have strictness in your work, they have it, that is not the point. More work = more rate of return concerning time/money spent in developping their game, so this is a win-win situation for both. Business is only about win-win situations.

Greetings france from Texas!

I suppose those variables could be keyed in or maybe even acquired from a Poll?????........ Look up ^ That is if it wasn't my half lucid attempt make a programmers joke to begin with.

I'm just sayin'. Just sayin'.

Well, the one main thing that those who want more information don't take into account, and which is IMHO the most important thing why Scavier is pretty closed up is following:

Just imagine a scenario where Scawen announces a feature he has just yet started to work on. As he get's into it, it becomes obvious that this feature cannot be done for some reason, so he has to cancel it. Wow, that would cause a whole lot of ruckus in these forums, and I dare say the most whining would be coming from those very persons who want more info now.

A similar thing already happened when Scawen announced the new GTR interiors for a patch (think it was V or Y), which didn't make it in that patch, and consequently just recently appeared. Back then, there were quite a lot people complaining about the interiors not being in.

Also I really cannot see any benefit from announcing anything that is done. The most improtant stuff is announced quite early actually, like the scirocco, interior updates, new BL and SO. What more do you need?

Honestly, some people in here remind me of kids with ADD, rocking their chairs, mumbling nonsense as soon as there is nothing new and flashy to catch their attention.
Just lean back and relax. The less time is spent on publishing potential features, the more time can be spent on actually producing them.

Just because you know what might be in the next patch doesn't make it come faster. On the contrary, the time waiting for it would be seem even longer, as you long for a certain feature, and the forums would suddenly burst with "bring the patch out now" threads.

EDIT: Also, as scawen usually posts important things in here that affect LfS' developement cycle, like moving, renovating or becoming father (twice), I for one think that LfS is alive and in continuating developement until Scawen tells us otherwise.

No arguing that it's continuing in development Coleus, but at what rate? :o

At about 0.8 jiggawatts per lifecycle of an invisible pink unicorn

:jawdrop:

Whatttttttt?

According to urbandictionary that roughly means that there is no rate, at least not one at a level that you and your tribe wants it to be at. Is it really so hard to understand or have you just learned to irgnore the facts while spamming at others threads?

Quote from jbirdaspec :

Greetings france from Texas!

I suppose those variables could be keyed in or maybe even acquired from a Poll?????........ Look up ^ That is if it wasn't my half lucid attempt make a programmers joke to begin with.

I'm just sayin'. Just sayin'.

Greetings Texas from Seattle (I am there for a year )

Yeah I know, the only thing is that a poll can not show the real thoughts of people, they just tick what they think it's closest. Basically, we have 1 different opinion per person (pretty much like one different church for each family in the US )