Quote from al heeley :

The subjective perception of a noob bearing down on you as you approach the chicane is where reality snapshots are left somewhat lacking.

I think that's where reality is overbearing and I could do with a watered down version. Reality needs more nerfing.

Thank you!




Here is another one I came up with while reading this thread:

Green lightning the start,
as thunder rages the pack,
silent engine dies.



A variation, with less action but more internal emphasis, would be:

With ruby moons above,
the drum of my heart deafens,
I still hold my breath.



I like the snapshot nature of haikus, so mine tend to be reality snapshots focused on subjective perception.

Sight a dancing blur,
rumbling heat rushing my veins,
butterfly trackside.


Just an additional note on haikus:

1. They usually contain a special season word (called kigo) that references either the season of the setting or the natural world in general.
2. There typically is a grammatical (and sometimes topical) break, called kireji, after the first or second line.

Yeah, I don't see a point in referring to the console version for a look at the physics. I hope (and am pretty sure) that aids will be possible to deactivate on the PC and that should give a better impression of the underlying physics.

While it still might not feel like an all-out sim, I expect it to be pretty solid.

Quote from deggis :

Seems to be very arcade from the comments and videos I've seen. at least it doesn't have bling bling ricer cars (like the recent NFS games).

http://forums.eu.atari.com/sho ... p=703509&postcount=19

Quote from MagicFr :

Well, i'm a bit lazy, i'll explain it again, like i already did on US Forums.... for the christ sake, why there is 2 english forums

I made car phyics & dynamics in the game.

The engine is a pure simulation... mathematic modelisation of real physics

Briefly that include
* tire model using modified pacejka 96
* 4 wheel independant
- rolling resistance, inertia,etc..
* full suspension model
- spring
- dampers ( slow & fast )
- antirolbars
* differentials , front,rear, central
- 3 types ( open, lsd, viscous )
- rolling resistance, inertia,etc..
* gearbox
- rolling resistance, inertia,etc..
* clutch
- rolling resistance, inertia,etc..
* engine
- full torque curve ( full injection cartography )
- rolling resistance, inertia,etc..
* aerodynamics
- drag
- lift
- draft effect
* Real driving helps
- Traction Control
- ESP
- ABS
4 positions for the driving helps
- Full help
- Sport
- Hypersport
- OFF
.. i'm sure i'm forgeting some stuff

On top of that,i had to create a steering help, because u just CANT drive a car with a funny 1" stick.
The steering help is , i think, the best compromise, beetween helping the driver counter steer and keep maximum control of the car.
There is help only for countersteering.

In the game, after some playing, you will won a ChronoPack, so you'll could mesure yourself 0-60mph.. then you will compare with the real cars

cheers,
__________________
-------- magicfr -------
---- Game Developer ---
-- Dynamics & Physics --
- www.edengames.com -

You might recognize the name magicfr from around here.

Quote from Shotglass :

i somehow doubt that the rough feeling of the steering wheel on dr and nkp is direct input from the physics ... i dont think current ffb technology is able to reproduce such subtle and fast effects if they come directly from the physics

DR's FFB comes directly from the forces at the virtual steering wheel to be exact, because the tyre forces are sent through a simulated steering rack. There's nothing fudged or canned in the FFB generation and it is directly driven by the physics as they happen.

I guess Brazil is going to win.

I'm living about 800 meters from the Dortmund stadium where one of the semi-finals will take place, so I expect a lot of people (and all female brazilian fan clubs) to be around in a month.

Would have loved to have cards for the Brazil-Japan game.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

I've preordered nK-Pro but I'll still probably spend most of the month with LFS, even if the patch doesn't arrive. There's not going to be much content in nK-Pro at release - just four circuits and four (pretty similar) cars, so I'll probably be back in LFS quite a lot.

Actually the amount of content seems a weird argument to me. I can imagine spending all my time with a sim that only has one car and one track if it's a stellar, spot-on simulation. There are other games to provide LOTS of content without a particular focus on quality.

For sure I'm going to try the LFS patch and will spend some time evaluating it, but unless any showstopping bugs or feature gaps appear in nKP, I'm probably going to spend more time with it as it's a completely new toy.

Quote from tristancliffe :

There are so many areas LFS can be improved. None of them are huge improvements, but just little tweaks here and there, thats all. nKP is unknown at the moment, but it's been in [private] development for about the same time as LFS. The difference of course is that Kunos has gone for the single seater approach to begin with, and has a more pure 'unmolested' development period, whilst LFS has had a more public evolution with road cars (until S2). I think it's fascinating seeing the two approaches, and I wonder how much of nK Scavier will look at, and how much of LFS Stefano has checked out... I bet they say very little, but in truth I bet they'll have a play or two to see what they like about it.

There is a difference though in kunos not having worked fulltime on it for most of that time and from I could gather I wouldn't be surprised if it lay on his HDD untouched for weeks at a time when it still was a hobby project.

There are things I don't like about LFS, like parts of the tyre modelling (don't know whether it's the model or the data) and the sound quality, but I think the LFS devs are all very talented inidivduals and will get things right, given the time. My trust in that is why I'm keeping up with the LFS development without spending much time playing it at the moment. (According to my lfsworld.net stats I have driven less than 1200 miles. )

Last edited by Satorian, Sat 1 Apr 2006, 12:02.

Whatever the surprise is, I'm already looking forward to the tyre and aero updates. Very interested in giving them a spin.

I think this a rather weird thread. I've read my share about tyre models, yet I don't know how I would have to apply the quoted statement by kunos to simulations and certainly don't know in what technical way LFS and nKP differ. Additionally nKP hasn't even been released yet, so discussing advantages and disadvantages doesn't make much sense yet to me.

Let's bury the hatchet and stop this childish sim trench wars, from both sides.
Of course I'm open to a reasonable debate once it's released.

Enjoy your simming with whatever you prefer.

Quote from Tweaker :

Satorian, the bottom line here is that all the readings, articles, and journals, are just support for what will come out when everyone gets to play the game.

Uh, yes. Like with any other software and any other dev report. Can't see anything at fault there.

Quote :

You guys

I'm not in league with anyone and would appreciate not being lumped together with some abstract user group I don't stand for.

Quote :

read way too deep into why I say the readings could be "False" (actually that is the only part you guys interpret). I've stated already that, the readings mean NOTHING until you've tried the game, so if you want to say a Ferrari has super-hyrdo-tiptronic-allocated-stichted-leather-seams in its rear car seats and actually WANT to understand what that means and believe it... then good for you... but once you go see it/test it, opinions can be drawn... and not come here and ask for the untested tire model to be in LFS :zombie:.

I never did that, so, again, don't lump me in. I don't know either how well the tyre implementation in nKpro turns out. I was just stating that you should not label kunos' explanations of his work and the effort of giving us some behind-the-scenes info "propaganda", "hype" and "mumbo jumbo".

Quote :

That is like asking someone if they want a super-fast Punto and they don't know what a Punto is... thus the results are not satisfying. Clearly, the readings could be support for how good the game is (or in this case the tire model), but is it a crime to think there could also be a chance that the game isn't what people expected?

Find me a quote of me criticizing you for remaining cautios and critical. Again, I was stating prior that I found your slighting of a developer giving insight into his work a bit incomprehensible from my point of view.
I won't know either how nKpro will turn out until I tried it, but I definitely appreciate the information that has been given so far and often contained answers to questions that arose on the forums and contained a fair amount of response to the community.

I would very much like to have you quote which statements of kunos exactly are hype, mumbo jumbo (whatever abstract negative connotation you have there) and propaganda, because I fail to see the base on which you make these accusations and would like to know where our perception differs.

Quote from filur :

"it will run on any namie-capable machine"

It will technically run, but not necessarily run well.
It has the same requirements, not recommendations.


@Tweaker:
You say a lot of things and imply some more about nK and the devs behind it that I can't really agree with.
As for nK "propaganda" there has not been much of any hyping from the developer's side. It would have been propaganda if the devs had posted all of their info on forums or advertised like crazy, but calling informations they posted about their own product on their own website propaganda is not only inadequate, it's unfair. nK has went under a lot of people's radar so far and it hasn't been paid much attention to in my opinion.

As for implying that nKpro might be a try to just cash in with a product that was never meant to be the best-possible sim they could create at this moment with all its circumstances seems to be short of an insult when you have read a bit more about nK and kunos and possibly talked to him.

As for the wording and possibly over-complex expressions, keep in mind that kunos is no native speaker, so it might make sense to cut him some slack there. I would not suspect this to be an attempt at obfuscation or inflation.



The bottom line post-release will be that people will be able to try it themselves and some will like it and some will not, as with any sim implementation so far.
I have no doubt though that there were not any corners cut unless necessary and then to the utmost benefit of the simulation aspect, trying to simulate as realistic and authentic as possible.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Looks like they still want to hide something. Or mask unfinished parts? All I saw in that video was some (albeit nice looking) driving with a ton of filters and sound effects. I was barely able to make out any original content

Demo will tell...

Your last sentence says it all: Demo will tell. I don't think hiding anything would make any sense as there will be a demo and chances are that you will get an evaluation by somebody you trust when it comes to multiplayer.
As for the vid itself, it was a fairly typical promo video and no treatise on nK's technical aspects.

I'm waiting for PayPal to process my funds, but then again I'm in the nK camp if in any.

Congrats.

Best of wishes and take care of the lil' one!

The demo released at launch will have no multiplayer. And I expect proper videos to come around after launch.

I won't compare nKpro to anything else at this moment, as I don't know what has changed and how things are, and not for a lack of attention on my side. I have been following nK closely for years now, but the devs change things without big announcements and I would not be surprised if my current expectations are more than met.

The demo and opinions by trusted reviewers/friends should be enought to come to a decision on purchasing it or not.

Thanks a lot!

Can somebody give me a list of the songs in that video? Usually not my style of music, but I'd like to broaden my horizons and I liked the music for some reason.

Hope somebody can help me.

I guess si3v will do LODs on the track, so I wouldn't worry if you don't like/need details and scenery.

If some of you people want to try racing namie, feel free to take a look in http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?p=2843023#post2843023
I'm probably going to be online again today around 21 CET (20 GMT) hosting the server, so please do join.

The interface is wonky and sometimes the synchro on entering the game doesn't work, collisions don't work (so race clean ) and you can't join a race in progress if you are wondering why you can't join although the game is being displayed.

I will post the IP later in that thread again.

Quote from axus :

This is what Wheel Turn Compensation under Controls does. Fair enough, its not part of the setup but it is the same thing.

How does the WTC really work and does it effect the steering rack and kinematics or just the on-screen representation of the wheel?

Hi!

I know that there has been some outrage when S2 introduced severly limited wheel lock for the cars and some discussion came from that.
Today I measured the wheel angle dependent on the steering angle on a BMW Z3.
The inner wheel lock was 34,15°, so the LFS cars are quite realistic in that regard.

Something else that I would like to be able to setup though would be the steering linearity when using a DFP. The Z3 has 1040° lock to lock, which are somewhat comparable with what a DFP can offer.
After normalizing the values I measured I came to a quadratic exponent of ~0.8 for steering linearity, which in simple terms means an oversensitive steering in the beginning with steering becoming slower towards the maximum lock.
Is it possible to set this up in LFS, or could this potentially introduced in a patch?

For exact values of my measurement and a graph, see http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?t=236467

Cheers,
Satorian

As appreciative one can be of ajp's fandom, I politely ask the ones reading this thread to not take everything he says about what kunos (nK's coder and main dev) would do or wouldn't do as gospel. That's left to kunos himself and I haven't seen any pamphlets yet proclaiming his policies written by himself.

nKpro's physics model is indeed a complete vehicular physics framework and not tailored towards specific classes or cars. It just happens that kunos is, as he stated in some posts on RSC, basically an open-wheeler fan so most of his energy probably went towards getting access to open-wheeler cars and he didn't bother with tintops. One of the teams working with him is the italian F3 Target Racing team for example.
As the development kit nK|dK is scheduled to be released some time ("2-3 months") after nKpro, tintops or any other car can be included at will.

While there may be similarities to LFS in terms of car choice or focus, nK seems very much its own thing to me. There will neither be AI, nor rain nor complex damage beyond suspension damage as for as I know in the first release but development on those has already progressed and looks like it's going to be just a matter of time.

nK 0.9.9 aka namie, often referred to as the demo is already 3 years old and I think only in so far indicative of nKpro that one might expect the strengths, what is already good about it, to be strengthened more and polished and the weaknesses dimished or eliminated.

I hope everyone interested in sims will give it a fresh, unbiased try and chance to really evaluate if it's to his liking and give honest and fair feedback.

Hope to see you on the track, guys!