Quote from bbman :

Not just that, I've seen several cases where someone pulled the handbrake up for parking, and over night the brakes froze together...

So, people don't use the handbrake normally? Around here in the driving school as a one of the first things they teach you is that every time you park you push down the clutch, pull the handbrake on, put in 1st and turn off the engine. The car could stand on it's own even in a slope if there was just a gear on but wouldn't that be more stressful for the gearbox and such parts when they had to hold the car stationary?

So much I want to comment on, but sheesh, the thread grew 4 pages since I last looked last night. I see comments about are manuals that uncommon and hard to find in America? (from Becky I believe?) Yes it is very difficult to get some vehicles in manual transmission. In probably the majority like 90% of vehicles you want to buy (new) you would have to specially order it if you wanted manual. Getting a vehicle new that you WANT compared to what is available as delivered to the dealer is difficult. Sometimes you can't even get the color you want because the dealer doesn't have it, nor can he find one at another close dealer. I mean, get real. I'm buying a new vehicle, I should be able to get it however I want it. Some vehicles don't offer manual transmission at all. My friend bought an SS S-10 Chevy 2wd pickup, basically a factory little "riced" sport truck. It was offered with Chevy's crap 4 cyl, or a V-6. Their V-6's are pretty nice. That would definitely be the choice for a sport truck with a more sport suspension package. Manual shift? Nope, not available. Only with the 4 cyl.

I apologize to my fellow countrymen as I say this, but I'll say it again. It is because the majority of American (read US) drivers are too stupid to even be on the road. They need antilock brakes because they can't even handle 2 pedals, let alone adding a 3rd. They have no idea why or what happens when a car skids on the road. You see accident reports in the paper all the time, especially in the winter with snow. It always states, so-and-so lost control due to ice, or snow, or speeding, or..... NO!!!!!! They didn't loose control, because they HAD NO CONTROL TO BEGIN WITH!!!! Letting a car coast down the road while guiding it with a round thingymajigger on the dashboard is not being in control. If they have no idea how a tire grips the road, what will happen due to the weight transfer of the vehicle, or how a vehicle stops other than "you push the brakes and it stops", then they don't have control of the vehicle EVER.

I am not talking about all Americans, but I am saying the majority of them are this way. I see it every day I am out on the road. I am passionate about driving. I love driving, whether it is my truck, a motorcycle, a sportscar, whatever. I know how to drive and do it well. I am always in control of my vehicle. I know the limits and how certain variables affect the control of my vehicle. The majority do not.

You really see it in the winter. The snow starts coming down and suddenly you see them hunched over the steering wheel with a death grip, making jerky inputs, driving like 40 mph slower than they need to, riding the brake, slowing down to about 15 mph for every turn, barely making it to the top of hills, then coasting downhill while on the brake the entire time all tensed up driving 10 mph. In the mean time, I can't even drive that slow. I have to leave my very light back ended truck in 2wd so I don't just plow their stupidity over. I have to practically stop at the top of hills to let them drive their 10 mph idiocy to the bottom or I will run them over because continuously slamming your brakes on going down the hill in the snow is crazy. Because they are driving, guess what? Yup, an automatic where nothing is solidly mechanically connected to the wheels, thus making it very easy to lock up the brakes and slide off the road. Because they are too stupid and would just push the brakes harder if that happened.

Oh yea, about the handbrake thing. Tweak you are wrong, sorry. I see one post where you say there isn't anything wrong with using the handbrake for going down a hill. The handbrake is for emergency and parking use ONLY. First off, the force difference between using the hydrolic system of the normal brake pedal and trying to use the cable system and your hand/arm for the handbrake system is huge. You don't have the sensitivity in pulling the handbrake as you do using the normal foot brake system. Not only that, but the handbrake also defaults to locking into position unless you specifically hold the unlock system, ie, the button on the lever. Therefore, if too much oomph is applied on the handbrake, it could very easily induce rear lockup which could mean it is neccessary to pull up even harder to depress the unlatch system of the lever if it was slipped that the lever locked in place. The proper way to drive down a hill is to shift to a lower gear and gently apply and let off the normal brakes as to not overheat them. Then again, due to the majority of Americans being too stupid (not you Tweak, or others here, just a generalization) to be driving, most use an automatic which has nearly no benefit to downshifting and compression braking as there is no mechanical connection between the drivetrain and the motor. Most just lay on the brakes and ride them the entire way down any incline they come to.

Quote from JTbo :

There was laws that probhited making too strong doors in there

In the US? That's right - it's to make it easier for Homeland Security to Protect Your Freedoms.

Quote from tristancliffe :

But the classic car was a far prettier, cooler and more desirable car - thank god kids today don't realise that, otherwise the nice one of the pair could have been damaged.

I was thinking the same thing: "Thank God the fastback's ok!"

In driving school here, they just teach you to put the handbrake on when you park and never to use it when you're in motion - that's it. Using it as a normal brake just seems, I don't know...I've just never considered it as a possibility unless the actual brakes had completely failed. To me it's the fail-safe - the last thing you do before you get out of the car, so it's in the same place you left it when you get back.

Having said that I have used it while in motion more than once, usually on gravel or in a paddock, usually in an old bush-basher with my cousin and usually with hilarious results

I'm sure in icy conditions it would be useful to use it but driving on an icy or snow-covered road is not something you're likely to do in Australia very often

Quote from Blackout :

So, people don't use the handbrake normally? Around here in the driving school as a one of the first things they teach you is that every time you park you push down the clutch, pull the handbrake on, put in 1st and turn off the engine. The car could stand on it's own even in a slope if there was just a gear on but wouldn't that be more stressful for the gearbox and such parts when they had to hold the car stationary?

No, many here do not use the handbrake because of what bbman said. You set the handbrake and you won't be moving the following morning due to it being frozen. It typically isn't the brakes that are frozen, but the cable of the handbrake system itself is frozen in position not allowing the brakes to relax.




One more thing as I didn't comment on the vid itself. Now I can't remember what style of Mustang that was, but one of the special packages like the GT500 or something IIRC. That thing has 400+ hp or something, in rear wheel drive, on a cold engine startup. If the kid started it, his foot slipped off the clutch, then the motor would have enough rear grip and torque to easily push the car whether he hit the brakes or not. I imagine he wouldn't be quite that strong of a kid yet, nor would he know how hard to hit the brakes if he did. You would have to hit the brakes pretty hard to overcome a 400 hp rwd grippy sportscar running at high idle speed without knowing to hit the clutch as well in a "panic" situation like that.

Quote from Hankstar :

I'm sure in icy conditions it would be useful to use it but driving on an icy or snow-covered road is not something you're likely to do in Australia very often

My very first new car I ever bought on my own was called a Geo Storm, basically an import knockoff of an Isuzu Impulse for Cheverolet at the time. A 1600 pound car, 4 cyl approximately 100 hp, with $250 each Pirelli sport tires on it. Couldn't find an all-season or winter tire for it at all. If it even looked like it was going to snow, the car was all over the place. We had quite a bad winter that year. We're talking getting 24 inches of snow in just one storm all through the winter. Yea, this thing was horrid in the snow. Because of this, I learned how to drive with that handbrake. If I wanted to turn, and I turned the steering wheel, there was nothing the car would do but continue plowing in a straight line no matter how slow or fast you were going. The only way to turn was to yank the handbrake, skid it sideways, and let go as you lined up for where you wanted to turn. I got quite good at it. People would look at me in much surprise (fear? LOL) as I would be boppin down through a parking lot, kick it sideways, slide for about 10 parking spaces until I was perfectly lined up for the empty spot, and pull right in. I could do it as easily as anyone else could choose and pull into a parking spot on clear/dry pavement (tarmac) normally. I have to think, because of this car, I could drive ANYTHING in ANY kind of weather. I drove it through 3 winters like that. It taught me a lot about balance, grip, and weight transfer because I HAD to use those to get the car to go where I wanted it to in the snow.

There's a point, you remind me of a Jaguar I borrowed for a few weeks with a 5.3 litre V12 engine, on idle revs if you put the car in gear it would work its way up to 40mph (eventually) which is a bit rediculous because the speed limit is 30, so whenever I was on the ring road I used to have to ride the brakes quite often. I hate automatics, although the Jaguar was nice, for a while I had an Audi as a company car and that was automatic - talk about change gear when it felt like it . I dont know how anyone copes with automatic gearboxes.

Quote from george_tsiros :

so the "oncoming traffic" will see a car in front of it... and drive straight in it. and the fault is that the poor guy stalled his car. set aside that there could have been an accident, malfunction, or whatever, you claim it is the *stalling* that is the risk here. yes. perfect.

i think you prefer automatic because you are incompetent and can't drive stick without stalling, or you are lazy and do not want to do the work, you want others to do it for you. you just want it easy.

The cars I drive are manual, so no I don't prefer automatic. I'm just agreeing that the possibility of stalling is a risk for an accident.

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

And who the hell rolls into a train line after they stall? The first thing anyone with a brain would do is hit the brakes. But then that isn't a risk anyway, the only time you stop at a train line is if the gate is down, which means a train is going past, if you stalled when you started going again there wouldn't be a train to hit you. Where is the risk?

Where I live our railroad crossings don't have gates. We have to either notice the blinking lights, or just come to a stop before the tracks, look both ways, and then continue across. Which is where the problem of stalling comes about. I haven't stalled on tracks myself, but I have stopped at some tracks, saw a train coming, but quickly darted across in front of the train to beat waiting for the entire thing to go past. I could easily see someone trying this and stalling and not starting their car in time to move out of the way. There is even a video on youtube or somewhere of a trucker stalled on some tracks and getting slammed by a train. It happens.

Quote from mrodgers :

No, many here do not use the handbrake because of what bbman said. You set the handbrake and you won't be moving the following morning due to it being frozen. It typically isn't the brakes that are frozen, but the cable of the handbrake system itself is frozen in position not allowing the brakes to relax.

That's weird, hadn't seen or heard it happening around here and we have proper winters with sub-zero temperatures. Could, of course, be temperature changes which melt the snow during the day (or if you store your car in warm garage) and then at the night it freezes, or it could be not-so well prepared car-models for non-Scandinavians which allow this to happen.

If you want a scarey car in snow. Get a 140bhp 140lb torque rear wheel drive car with Red Neck slicks (bald tyres) on icey/snowy roads. That is fear in a can. The gearbox has this fancy "snow mode" button which makes the gears taller, so you hit it, all it does it mean you get about 0.5 seconds longer facing the right way before the car snaps around.
Or you can be psycho and hit the "sport mode" button, which makes the gears shorter, that was a whole load of fun.

But that's the cost you pay for using an automatic, you have to tell the computer which setting to use so it knows when to shift. But a lot of your points about people in autos only apply if they generally suck at driving. I am yet to see my dad ride the brakes in his car, with or without a caravan on the back. Really other than the fact he never takes his hands off the wheel, you wouldn't know he was driving an auto because he is (well is when you turn off the lazy features so he HAS to drive anyway) a good driver other than the problems with constant upshifting and downshifting when he is towing on country lanes, there is very little difference in his driving.

As for bad drivers and snow there is a webcomic somewhere (when I find it I'll link it) which pretty much just says what you did there. One snow flake and people freak out and start driving with their arse.

stalling is not something that would cause an accident. the stupidity of the other drivers around, that is where the risk of causing an accident is.

i haven't heard or seen an accident that was caused because a car stalled and here in greece 99% of cars are autos.

The strip psycho was talking about

http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=77

Quote :

I haven't stalled on tracks myself, but I have stopped at some tracks, saw a train coming, but quickly darted across in front of the train to beat waiting for the entire thing to go past. I could easily see someone trying this and stalling and not starting their car in time to move out of the way. There is even a video on youtube or somewhere of a trucker stalled on some tracks and getting slammed by a train. It happens.

And the risk is "stalling" the car. Right.

Thank you, Mr. Rogers. You summed up everything I wanted to say.

I switched to manuals in 1999 and will never go back. EVER. You get better traction in the snow for one thing. Lets say I am going 45 mph in fifth gear, and I need to slow down. Oh, and lets say there is that "mashed potato" snow on the roads. All I do is rev match to 4th, 3rd and 2nd then, because I refuse to drive a car with ABS, find my threshold braking so the tires wont lock up. Easy, right? Not for the yahoos I have to drive with. If its snowing out, take the speed limit and half it. Meanwhile, I am driving on crappy all season tires and able to drive the speed limit like it was dry out.

Now, keep in mind I treat bad weather as practice, not a nuisance. And I am the exception, not the rule. And since I am an automotive purist, I only own vehicles with a manual, and no ABS.

Now, I noticed a bit of an eliteist attitude from some members about manual transmissions. Hey, if it works in Europe, great. More power to you. But here in America, automatics are king. That is our culture. It is not like we strut around with the mindset that we are supieror to all others insofar as transmission choice is concern. You have to keep in mind that car manufactuers really market vehicles with automatics, because for them, it is cheaper to make one version, rather than two.

Jesus, Mary and Joesph...I cannot believe this thread turned into a World versus America. Not all Americans are fat, lazy and sleep with their cousins, contrary to what Jeremy Clarkson says. Our culture may be repulsive to some, but darnnit, we are who are, and not a bit ashamed, as others should not be of their countrys culture.

i thought when driving on snow you want to lock your wheels?

Jay, I don't see anyone bashing America Most people here seem to prefer manual boxes and it seems US manufacturers don't. No need to be defensive.

For the record, it seems the most scathing criticism of America in this thread has come from a couple of Americans

Quote from Blackout :

The use of handbrake (or even the using of brakes) Tweaker told just sounds so foolish! It's not for braking down when going downhill, in normal traffic it's useful when starting stationary position uphill and when parking and that's it.

How is it not useful for going down hills in an emergency? I never said it is useful for going downhills REGULARLY... like every hill you encounter.... Screw that, I use my normal foot brakes for that. But read what is in my posts before you go and victimize me as if I'm the fool of this thread. I clearly have said it was because my brakes were going out.... near metal on metal.... is it "foolish" that I was taking it safe and applying the handbrake to not ruin my rotors? Is it a bad idea that I try and save my rotors so they aren't gouged by the pads/calipers, so I can use them a second time and not have to pay for a new set? What's so foolish about that? There are many reasons why what I was doing was a VERY good idea... You guys just seem to think I am so persistent with saying the handbrake is used like a normal brake when driving normally. Of course not! :rolleyes: :doh:

Geez, I hate car debates.

Come on, how stupid do you really think I am? Handbrake to go down hills? I'd have some serious issues with knowing what limb to use to brake a car. I guess the foot brake must only for emergencies then!!!! :ices_rofl

Quote from Tweaker :

What's so foolish about that?

neglecting important car maintenance,
driving a car with almost no brakes(you said so)

Quote from Tweaker :

Come on, how stupid do you really think I am?

very, but that is not the issue at hand.

In the end, with an automatic you have less control of what the car does.

Quote from george_tsiros :

neglecting important car maintenance,
driving a car with almost no brakes(you said so)

very, but that is not the issue at hand.

How am I neglecting important car maintenance when the brakes had JUST gone out after only 20k miles or so, when they should last on average about 30k miles iirc (for fronts)? It was unexpected, and I am not 'neglecting' my car. I just had all my brakes done, timing belt, oil and filters changed, transmission fluid flush, etc.... and I am not taking care of my car.... right

Get back to your car magazines and webster's dictionary, because I could care less what you have to say George. Youre being a real pest with looking at the wrong side of the story yet again. Nor do you even take any opinions into consideration... maybe you should start your own (edit, word doesn't fit your profile) organization.

Quote from Blackout :

That's weird, hadn't seen or heard it happening around here and we have proper winters with sub-zero temperatures. Could, of course, be temperature changes which melt the snow during the day (or if you store your car in warm garage) and then at the night it freezes, or it could be not-so well prepared car-models for non-Scandinavians which allow this to happen.

Trust me, it will happen, cables will froze, specially when get bit of age.
Some new Volvos have broke brake shoes because of this, surface comes off.
Also mechanism of handbrake is often jamming a bit because too little use, then brakes are applies whole time a bit and this can cause even wheel bearing to go bad as grease will turn liquid because of heat, etc.

Quote from mrodgers :

Then again, due to the majority of Americans being too stupid (not you Tweak, or others here, just a generalization) to be driving, most use an automatic which has nearly no benefit to downshifting and compression braking as there is no mechanical connection between the drivetrain and the motor. Most just lay on the brakes and ride them the entire way down any incline they come to.

cant you change to first or second on an american auto to go downhill in full controll of your car ? cause european auto boxes do have those gear settings

Quote from Blackout :

That's weird, hadn't seen or heard it happening around here and we have proper winters with sub-zero temperatures. Could, of course, be temperature changes which melt the snow during the day (or if you store your car in warm garage) and then at the night it freezes, or it could be not-so well prepared car-models for non-Scandinavians which allow this to happen.

we have some pretty cold winters here too with some -10 to -20 and sometimes above 0 during the day so the type of weather youd expect the handbrake to freeze solid ... yet not even the italian car which was clearly not made for that type of weather never suffered from that problem ... actually ive never even heard of it before

the only real use for the handbrake when the car is in motion is to have fun with your trailing arm suspension (except for drifting that is and that includes drifting to save you from understeer not just for funsies)

Quote from Shotglass :

cant you change to first or second on an american auto to go downhill in full controll of your car ? cause european auto boxes do have those gear settings

Yeah most of them have a drive 1 & 2. Though if the speed is too fast, and you put it in 1st, it will not go to 1st for most cars. It will most likely be in 2nd, or any gear that is still safe for the engine and transmission. Some cars (namely trucks and some haulers), they will have a low-gear switch you can flip on too, and that will override the automatic computer so that you can run higher RPMs for downhill or uphill. Mainly for going uphill to help with towing, but also for downhill so it will STAY in a low gear. Because automatic will want to go to the next gear as it gets faster downhill. Though just using the 1 or 2 will make it stick more often than not.

I had this low-gear-high-rpm switch in an old Jeep I had, it was really nice to have.

Quote from Shotglass :

cant you change to first or second on an american auto to go downhill in full controll of your car ? cause european auto boxes do have those gear settings

As Tweak said, yes the "slushboxes" as they are called have D-2-1 or D-3-2-1 with a 4 spd overdrive auto. As I said it is the difference of a mechanical connection when you have a manual tranny and clutch. The clutch surface is the mechanical (well, almost) connection to the motor, solidly connecting the two through the clamping force of springs and friction surfaces. With an automatic, it uses fluid inside the torque converter as a connection between the tranny and motor. Thus, you will always have some slip in there and it won't give you the proper compression braking as it would with a dry clutch connection. The torque converter would be designed to slip more at a certain rpm to enable the car to stop while still "in gear".

The torque converter is somewhat like two fans, one on the motor and one on the transmission sitting in fluid. The motor fan spins, which spins the fluid, thus causing the tranny fan to spin. Upon downshifting, it is the opposite. The transmission spins faster, which spins the fluid faster, which causes the engine to spin faster, but compression hinders that. But without the clamping force of a clutch, there is slip between the tranny and motor, thus reducing the compression backpressure to reduce speed.

those are low gears though the 1, 2, and rarely a 3rd

overdrive is only drive with 1 extra gear at the end; nowadays most SUVs and trucks and full size vehicles dont even use a first gear when in drive, but rather start in 2nd as tweak has said

I'm pretty sure all automatic cars will use the 1st gear XCNuse. It is so short, you won't notice it though... and automatic shifts gears pretty smoothly. I never said they start in 2nd (That was referring to if you put it in 1st while going fast down a hill, it will use 2nd at best)

Could the extensive braking in downhills because of the automatic be the reason you had to change your brakes earlier? As I said, in manual you can save your brakes and not to polish them all the time because you can choose a lower gear and you are not going to accelerate like with automatic. Someone could say it's a conspiracy, put auto to every car and you can sell more brakes hehe

And more about the frozen handbrake, when I think of it, I think I've seen it once with my neighbors old Volvo. Don't know which part was frozen but left rear wheel couldn't move, so yeah, it happens but it doesn't keep me for using handbrake, it seems so rare.

Quote from XCNuse :

those are low gears though the 1, 2, and rarely a 3rd

overdrive is only drive with 1 extra gear at the end; nowadays most SUVs and trucks and full size vehicles dont even use a first gear when in drive, but rather start in 2nd as tweak has said

You can do that if you hit a button. Probably not the same with all autos, but ours has three settings, "Normal", "Snow", and "Sport". Normal is just that, Snow has starts in 2nd and has tall gears, and sport has short gears for quick off the line speed.

Quote from Tweaker :

I'm pretty sure all automatic cars will use the 1st gear XCNuse. It is so short, you won't notice it though... and automatic shifts gears pretty smoothly. I never said they start in 2nd (That was referring to if you put it in 1st while going fast down a hill, it will use 2nd at best)

But you would notice. Unless state side automatics are even lazyer then ours, you have to take your foot off the throttle and put it back down to shift.

First of all: It's clearly the dads mistake. something comparable happened to me, when I was 8 or 9 and should close the electric roof, and I turned the key too far and a gear was in. So car made a jump, my dad looked shocked but nothing bad happened.

To the other Q: Auto or Manual? IMHO everyone should learn driving on a manual transmission. Once learned you will never again loose it. I drove both a lot, and manual is just greater outside town, on autobahn or land-road, cause you can sit in a gear a high RPMs to use engine brake, or on long downhill runs etc. Auto-gears are clearly way more better in high traffic areas. traffic jam with auto is just way more relaxing than with manu. Oh, and starting hill upward is easier too with auto, while left foot braking is doable with both :P

Oh Tweak: handbrake uses same brakes as footie... doesnt help at all