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Quote from StewartFisher :Come off it! Hamilton is classified above Alonso because he has more second place finishes. Alonso was my favourite going into this season, but there's no denying the fact that he's been beaten by Hamilton.

OK, I'm not questioning it in any way, but you know that rule exist because it has to be an ordered results table. The fact is both drivers made a great season with some stupid mistakes that handed the victory to Ferrari.

In fact there were three great driver/car combinations that granted us a great season. I hope Kovalainen and Kubica to jump in and make it five competitors for the 2008 season.
Quote from Bean0 :Indeed, I thought it was now one-way. The cars can send telemetry, but shouldn't be able to receive anything except car/pit radio.

From what I heard from McLaren, one explanation to Hamilton gearbox problems could be trash entering into the engine (in lap one), this would produce the temperature increase (hydraulics failure) and trigger a safety default trap (a reset for example) allowing the engine-gearbox to cool.

Of course this is speculation.
Image next gear with Microsoft providing the ECUs
Three laps to go



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Quote from StewartFisher :McLaren's appeal is a joke. It seems clear now that the FIA have absolutely no way of policing article 6.5.5 so to punish BMW or Williams would be impossible.

In any case, the FIA have pushed themselves into a corner with their ridiculous judgements that if you break the rules but don't gain advantage then you don't deserve punishment. Even if the temperatures of the fuel reported were true, there's no way that would have given them 'significant advantage', therefore the FIA shouldn't punish them, according to their absurd precedents.

I was hoping that Ron Dennis would take it like a man and move on, but apparently not. Having said that, I shouldn't discount the possibility that the appeal was demanded by Mercedes or the sponsors.

Yes, FIA has pushed too much with judgements and now they are paying the price. About Dennis.. I guess McLaren is revolting inside his tomb, he was one of the most correct pilots and managers around, Dennis is damaging his name!
Quote from J_Matrix :.. he was one of the most correct pilots and managers around...

Did you mean mechanic and team principal?
Quote from J_Matrix :Yes, FIA has pushed too much with judgements and now they are paying the price. About Dennis.. I guess McLaren is revolting inside his tomb, he was one of the most correct pilots and managers around, Dennis is damaging his name!

I think the whole of McLaren were being magnanimous in defeat when the result came through, only since then the officials independently found the irregularity in fuel and subsequently decided to take no action.

I think to say that Dennis is doing something to damage the team name by appealing isn't really the case here, and I don't think he even expects to win, but he would be remiss as the manager not to at least try given that it would hand the title to Lewis should the appeal be succesful. Any manager in this position would be doing exactly the same thing.
Quote from axus :It would be ridiculous for the F1 championship title to be decided off track.

Every decision by FIA is a joke. Leaving the BMW&whatnot without punishing in the fuel issue and leaving the points for mclaren untouched has made this season almost a joke. But to say that a championship, or even a win or a point "decided" off track is bad then the whole sport is a disgrace!

You cheat - you get punished. You break the rules, you deserve the punishment. It is really that simple. With FIA it isn't.

They use a dice. A round dice.

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Congrats to Kimi, too bad for Massa. Too bad for the season too. Fia certainly did its best to ruin it all.

Quality thread too
Quote from ajp71 :Well it's a huge issue, if a driver doesn't win the championship because he was beaten by two illegal cars then how is it any different to being beaten by an illegal car I can't understand your logic.



It's not the same at all. The fact illegal cars, DEEMED to gain an advantage got beaten in F1's case by Kimi Raikkonen Massa and Alonso anyway, Alonso could of got the championship too, it was still a 2 way battle. Hamilton has the bad end of the stick and as I said, if he wins the championship, especially over this, he is going to learn nothing and never be able to win a championship outright ever again.

These hacking cars (in a simrace sense) beat someone who could of won the championship, but these hacking cars were beaten by someone else who DID win the championship. Who deserves to win it? The guy who beat cars that had an 'advantage' over him to be honest, not the guy that got a bad start, tried to gain a place back too quickly, was unlucky to have gearbox problems, was on pace, flying through the field. But just didn't make the cut when it came to these 3 well, 4 particular cars in 6th 5th and 4th place.
This one made me chuckle
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Quote from BlueFlame :It's not the same at all. The fact illegal cars, DEEMED to gain an advantage got beaten in F1's case by Kimi Raikkonen Massa and Alonso anyway, Alonso could of got the championship too, it was still a 2 way battle. Hamilton has the bad end of the stick and as I said, if he wins the championship, especially over this, he is going to learn nothing and never be able to win a championship outright ever again.

These hacking cars (in a simrace sense) beat someone who could of won the championship, but these hacking cars were beaten by someone else who DID win the championship. Who deserves to win it? The guy who beat cars that had an 'advantage' over him to be honest, not the guy that got a bad start, tried to gain a place back too quickly, was unlucky to have gearbox problems, was on pace, flying through the field. But just didn't make the cut when it came to these 3 well, 4 particular cars in 6th 5th and 4th place.

That's nonsense. The fact that this is the last race and championship decider means nothing. If Raikkonen had been pushed down the points order in previous races by "hacking cars" as you put it, then he wouldn't even have been in contention. But by your logic that would be deserved, because if Hamilton had beaten these "hacking cars" he would deserve the relative points advantage over his rival.

Edit: Not that I care that much. I'm glad Kimi is the champion.
blue flame your a retard and all you do is talk out your arse, all your doin is contradicting yourself

however well done to kimi, and i hope that he keeps the title, bye bye alonso maybe he'll get a drive at ferrari now?? lol
Quote from andybarsblade :bye bye alonso maybe he'll get a drive at ferrari now?? lol

I most definitely pray he does NOT!!! Massa is signed for next year at Ferrari, and I believe Kimi will continue at Ferrari next year as well. I think Alonso will be going back to Renault, but who knows, and who cares?

Sad to see Hamilton lose his amazing run with such embarassing moments at the end of this season... I wanted him or Kimi to win. Since Kimi has won it finally, it is something he has worked really hard for, and he deserves it. So had Hamilton won the WDC, I would've liked that too. But Kimi winning is good to hear I think :up:

I am actually glad this mess of a season is over anyways. I am really anticipating the 2008 season where cars have no traction control... and that said.... Bourdais might have a slight edge coming from Champ Cars. 2008 season should be even more interesting than this one.
Ferrari have publically stated they do not have a spot for Alonso for the next season.
Quote from NotAnIllusion :Ferrari have publically stated they do not have a spot for Alonso for the next season.

Great new
Quote from NitroNitrous :Great new

my thoughts exactly, i used to like alonso but...... well... i think reneult would love to have him back, and saying that he better hope they do because i dont think anyone else will... yes a 2x WC, but kimi has always been the better driver anyway from day 1, now we have the likes of ... hamilton ,kubica and a few other new drivers showing grate promise i think alonso needs to be very carefull, 2x wc dont mean YOU can choose what where and when but alonso seems to think that...

1 thing i will give alonso he's soooooooooo lucky..., if that guy fell in a cannal he would come out with a bike round his neck!!!.. this season and at least the 2 before he has one very good lucky charm,.. he seems to ask for a miricle and one happens next race LOL
Quote from SamH :Interested to hear speculation about a reset/diagnostic command sent to Hamilton's engine/gearbox during the race, not from the McLaren garage. That could be an interesting out-of-season discussion on team security.

As far as I can tell Hamilton did the reset with the buttons on his wheel.
Well - what a crap week for English sport. Football, Rugby and the F1. At least that twit Alonso (sorry to Spanish people - i just don't like him!) didn't win and my second favourite non-british driver won the WC. Just a point - how would BMW and Williams have gained any advantge by cooling the fuel apart from being able to put a bit more in at a pit stop?
Quote from J@tko :Just a point - how would BMW and Williams have gained any advantge by cooling the fuel apart from being able to put a bit more in at a pit stop?

Colder fuel is more dense - hence providing better performance (AFAIK). Same reason why your car goes faster on a cold day or at lower altitude.
Quote from axus :Colder fuel is more dense - hence providing better performance (AFAIK). Same reason why your car goes faster on a cold day or at lower altitude.

Also, if you fill up early in the morning/late at night when it's cold, you get more petrol for your £££
Quote from Bean0 :Also, if you fill up early in the morning/late at night when it's cold, you get more petrol for your £££

I guess you could save £2 over your entire life doing that.
Quote from axus :Colder fuel is more dense - hence providing better performance (AFAIK). Same reason why your car goes faster on a cold day or at lower altitude.

Can anybody provide any physical reason why colder fuel would give you higher performance?

The reason your car performs better in cold weather or lower altitude is because the air is more dense, so you get more in the cylinder and can therefore burn more fuel (assuming you're using a petrol engine running a stoichiometric air/fuel ratio).

I cannot work out why colder fuel would give you 5-10 bhp more performance (as has been claimed). Any suggestions?
Quote from J.B. :As far as I can tell Hamilton did the reset with the buttons on his wheel.

yep mclaren said it took them several seconds to look at the computer data find out what was wrong and instruct lewis what to do
Quote from StewartFisher :
I cannot work out why colder fuel would give you 5-10 bhp more performance (as has been claimed). Any suggestions?

The way I see it, it's the same reason as for colder air.

The injectors fire a set amount of fuel each time they open, if the fuel is colder then there will be more fuel particles in the same volume...more dense.

The ECU should be able to tell that the engine is slightly overfuelling compared to what is was expecting, and draw more air into the cylinder to compensate. This would give you more BHP at the same RPM than with warmer fuel.

Could be wrong, but it seems sensible to me
*Awaits engine geeks*
Quote from StewartFisher :

I cannot work out why colder fuel would give you 5-10 bhp more performance (as has been claimed). Any suggestions?

Dont forget that statement was made by Mike Gascoyne, who is a twat. So take the 5-10 bhp increase with a grain of salt.
From what I understand from an engine, the petrol is ignited by the spark plug, which 'explodes' and forces the piston down. Surely if the petrol was colder, then it requires more engery to heat it up or will give out less power because less energy is created by the explosion?

And surely the petrol will get closer to air temperature during a race anyway?

FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG