Quote from danben7 :

ok unfair probably wasn't the best word, i'd liken it to the swimming in the olympics these days, people are using some new streamlined ultra sleek suits to resistance is minimal, only thing is they cost alot of money, so not everyone can afford them.
Now using them isn't against the rules, but i would say it's against the spirit of competition.

Same with the set-ups, using them isn't against the rules, but not everyone has the time to get into it, i feel it's kinda against the spirit of the game.
That's why i'd like to see a "force x setup" option for online races.

sorry to go ot

But, I mean... you understand that setting up the car is a huge part of motorsports, right?

And that most people online are willing to share setups if you're not proficient at it yourself (as I'm not).

@danben7: I'd liken it to configuring your controller, just a bit more complicated. The end goal is the same: something you feel comfortable with. I'd even consider controller configuration part of the vehicle setup.

Why is it when someone asks to critique their driving, everyone tells them about trail braking. But then when someone mentions understeer during braking, they jump all over him about "understeer in a straight line..."?

I don't do all braking in a straight line. At least I try not to. I am well out of practice with LFS though.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

But, I mean... you understand that setting up the car is a huge part of motorsports, right?

And that most people online are willing to share setups if you're not proficient at it yourself (as I'm not).

Ya, i know, i just think, since we're in a game, there should be an option so that everyone is on a completely level playing field and the only thing that differentiates who wins and who doesn't is how well you drive.

Quote from Forbin :

@danben7: I'd liken it to configuring your controller, just a bit more complicated. The end goal is the same: something you feel comfortable with. I'd even consider controller configuration part of the vehicle setup.

Well yeah, idealy (assuming it's a one make race) everyone would have say a G25 or similar, all using the clutch, all same degree of rotation as the cars are the same.

I dunno, i just like the idea of everyone being the exact same, and the race is decided only by you driving. At least as an option for races i mean, not all the time.

On that note too, it also annoys me when you see people cutting corners without penalty, or without adverse affects.

But anyways

That's the thing, everyone is not exactly the same. Different people require different things from the car and have different equipment.

The FXR seems to be the most difficult for me because it seems to over steer unexpectedly, however I have little experience with it, but its because of that problem.

Quote from Forbin :

That's the thing, everyone is not exactly the same. Different people require different things from the car and have different equipment.

I know, i'm just saying i'd like the option to force everyone onto a level playing field.

Quote from danben7 :

Same with the set-ups, using them isn't against the rules, but not everyone has the time to get into it, i feel it's kinda against the spirit of the game.
That's why i'd like to see a "force x setup" option for online races.

No real racing series doesn't allow some drive setup, even the series with cars prepared by the organisers will allow brake bias, anti-roll bars, tire pressures and wings to be adjusted.

No serious racing team will leave anything as they bought it, much bigger changes are made to cars even in spec series than one can make in LFS. Some of the changes in LFS are a bit silly because they allow too much precision and of course we're not governed by real world rules which can result in some weird setups.

Setting the car up is a large part of any motorsport and if a driver doesn't want to do it he can at least let a team of mechanics do it for him, in LFS you can just get a set. Setups are not always the be all and end all that people make them out to be, so long as you haven't got silly things like locked diffs you should be able to drive any reasonable race setup at any circuit within a second of the time you could a achieve with the perfect setup.

Quote from Forbin :

That's the thing, everyone is not exactly the same. Different people require different things from the car and have different equipment.

Exactly. There is a misconception that put everyone in identical cars and you'll see the best driver win. It doesn't work like that in practice. Take Schumacher and Barrichello for example. Barrichello was forced to use the Ferrarri as Schumacher liked it set up, (at least for the first season or two), and he just didn't get on with the way it handled. However, once he was allowed some input in to the way the Ferrarri drove he started to perform much better as the car was then set up to suit his driving style.

If even F1 drivers are at the mercy of their driving style then mere mortals like us don't have a hope of being able to adapt to different sets. So if you're unable, (or unwilling), to create a set that is best suited to your driving style you have two options:

a) Ask people to try theirs until you find one that is best (or closest to) for you.
b) Accept that you'll never be able to drive at the pace you're truely capable of.

I also agree that setups is an imperative element in motorsports, although I'm not good at all in creatring them (i'm a driving monkey ). Fortunately there are a lot of gifted guys who happily share their setups in the LFS community, for which we thank them greatfully

A "forced equal setups" option wouldn't harm though (rfactor already has such an option) but it would be equally 'unfair', since not everyone uses the same controllers nor has the same driving style

I find FXR the easiest GTR to drive, and I am fastest with it on most combos. Some tracks I am faster with FZR because it has more top speed.

XRR seems very twitchy to me. I just don't gel very well with XRR. I can do 1 or 2 fast laps with it, but I can't be consistant. My driving style just doesn't suit it I guess. It seems pretty stable in the low speed corners, but in the fast corners I often get oversteer. Some times I munch the front tyres too. The turbo lag doesn't help either.

Naturally the FZR and XRR are much easier on the tyres, where in the FXR its a constant struggle to keep front tyre temps under control.

The FXR is a breeze for me to drive. I can drive the XRR, i haven't much but it's not a problem. The when i try and drive the FZR i find myself struggling to not do donuts.

I can't keep any of them on the track for even one lap, so I can't vote here.

Quote from migf1 :

A "forced equal setups" option wouldn't harm though (rfactor already has such an option) but it would be equally 'unfair', since not everyone uses the same controllers nor has the same driving style

I think the whole point behind LFS is to learn about car handling, wieght transfer, roll, pitch, understeer under braking . For me alot of the pleasure gained from racing in LFS is shifting DF sliders about untill I get it just right and taking ages over RARB to never get it right. Then when you do get within three seconds of the leader it means all the more. Prehaps there are a few too many settings to be realistic but the ability to mess around with your car is paramount to the ethos of LFS. I am sure that the option list will be honed and streamlined for each model as LFS nears completion. The amount of options available is just as much there to highlight Physics flaws as it is to give you playability atm.

Hm, FZR.

FZR It's so tail happy. I just spin out all the time. It just my lack in skill

I voted FZR. XRR's are just as hard on races, but slightly smoother on cruises imo. The easy to drive GTR's are the UFR, XFR and FXR, because they are powered by their front wheels. (FXR is also 4wd, which makes it better!)

Or maybe its just easier because I suck since I use the keyboard...

The XRR is a real hard-to-drive-car. I am driving it in our Endurance Race Series and im facing a lot of unexpected problems with it. Im the only XRR driver out of 28 GTR class competitors, so nobody can help me out with my issues. In the former season i drove the FXR and i think i am able to compare it a bit. In my opinion the XRR has some disadvantages to the other GTRs:

The XRR has some major things that make it that hard to drive. 1st is the rear wheel drive. The XRR has only half of the contact area to the surface than the other 2 to submit accelerating forces.(FXR->4WD, FZR-> bigger tires) Thats why it often spins out the wheels and it burns the rear tires that fast. The solution is to never use the locked diff instead of the clutch pack. The clutch pack needs to be set up with very low preload/power settings to avoid spinning the wheels when accelerating. This causes a lot of power to be lost and blown into nothing, when the clutchpack regulates the overpower.

The 2nd thing is the turbocharger. The car generates most of its poweroutput with the turbo. When accelerating, the turbo needs half a second to load up and then kicks you in the back. Controlling that poweroutput is very difficult and only possible with a good wheel/pedal combo. The FXR has the same engine, but the 4WD helps to cope with that problem. Pushing the accelerator and you can get the FXR out of almost everything. FZR has a big N/A tuned engine, so the response to accelerating signals is much more precise than its turbolagged comrades.

The 3rd thing is the weight ratio. The FZR has most of the weight on the back where the engine sits right above the powered wheels (the big ones). FXR has a more front weighted ratio, which kills the front tires on the one hand, but gives you good grip when accelerating out of tight corners. The XRR has a almost 50/50 weight-ratio(which seems to be great). Engine (and weight) in the front , but the poweroutput on the rear. There is much less weight on the powered wheels, which make it that spin happy.

The 4th thing is the setup in general. The XRRs general spring setup is very understeering. To get this under control you need to setup the springs in a way that doesnt seem to be realistic. Maybe the thoughts when building it were to handle this "feature" with the accelerator to make the car more neutral or oversteer when pushing the pedal. The cars behaviour changes in within milliseconds from understeer to oversteer and back.

The 5th thing i forgot to mention is the brake. The XRRs usable range of braking power is 20-25% lower than FXRs. Otherwise you always get this hotspots when locking the wheels which wears out the tires too fast in endurance races (what i do most). So its necessary to brake much earlier which makes it easy for the others to overtake you in the braking zones.


But there are also some good things: the car is as tough as a tank. Minor touching of walls or opponents doesnt destroy the whole handling of the car. The effects of damage in the suspension arent that serious than in the other 2 GTRs. The engine is more usable to the affect of overreving at downshifting and cant be destroyed so easy. Fuel consumtion is a bit less than FXRs.
The biggest advantage of the XRR is the topspeed. even with way bigger wings the XRR is a hard to overtake car for the others on the straight. As XRR driver you need this big wings to keep the car under control in the fast corners. (i dont mention the sand stuck feature here even if this is also a big disadvantage for XRRs).

So all in all this car is way harder to drive than all the other GTRs. A good setup which suits your driving style perfectly is necessary to be competitive much more than in FXR or FZR.
My opinion to match this car more to the others would be:
swap the turbocharger with a supercharger or N/A engine to make the poweroutput easier to control, and/or give it bigger rear tyres.

thats just my 2 cents

I voted for the fzr.

The way I interpreted the question was how the cars handled, period. Not in relation to each other.

In my opinion the xrr is much easier to drive once you realize the power kicks in pretty hard once the turbo hits. To counter this you can predict the turbo coming on and let off a little to make the power delivery progressive. This makes the car easier to drive at the limits I think, but if your used to n/a power you can tend to get used to keeping the pedal down if there is no power at first.

The fzr is a much more twitchy car. The throttle is instant and it feels like an open wheel car in a way. This car is easier to be fast in, but for the more inexperienced this car is a handful.

I made my decision thinking from the point of view of an intermediate driver. The xrr has turbo lag which wont allow the driver to jam the gas pedal and spin the car out. Instead, if one learns to jam the gas pedal initially and play with it, its actually harder to spin compared to the twitchy fzr. Sure, the fzr is easier to go fast in, but the question is "what is the most-difficult-to-drive GTR car?", not "what is the most difficult-to-drive-FAST GTR car?"

SRR Marty, does not post often, but posts true.

Quote from spankmeyer :

SRR Marty, does not post often, but posts true.

because i have to practice too much with the XRR

I voted FZR... which is weird cause I'm in a league racing one and i'm crap with it ...

I suck at racing but make 2secs faster with xrr than fxr and fzr at Aston National for example.

According to most of claims under this topic there is definately something wrong with my driving

League racing is a good reason that makes you learn to drive cars you haven't before, because you have to practice with it Its the way I learned to drive XRT properly

XRR according to poll, it's the most difficult.