This thread is mainly aimed at league admins.

There's something I've been missing for a long time : a good overview of all league activity. There are quite a lot of leagues, but there is no centralised point of league news and schedule (ok there's the calendar here on the forum, but it's not enough imo). LFS News used to be the place for league news I guess, but it's been silent on that front for a while now. Since that's not the first time that happened I started thinking about adding a section for league news on lfsworld.

The reason for this thread is that I would like to make it as easy as possible for leagues to post news and was wondering how you (league admins) feel about possibly automating your news submissions to this new centralised leagues news section. I will post a suggestion later in this post, but if you know of any way that could make your life easier, please drop a note.

Following now are some more detailed explanations of the idea.

League registrations
Before you can post news, your league needs to be registered. This can be done on lfsworld (when it's made available). You'll be able to fill in things like :

-League name
-League type (single event/endurance/gtr/ss/etc.)
-Country (or international)
-Website url
-Requires LFS license to enter?
-Requires a fee to enter?
-Can win a prize?

Your league entry must have admins as well. These are LFS racers (including yourself) who are allowed to post/edit news items on behalf of your league.

News contents
In order to make the news items a bit interesting, they cannot consist of just some text. We want to know more about your league!
So every news item should contain at least :

-Date
-Title
-Text
-MPR (can be multiple, eg. Quali / Race1 / Race2 / etc)
-Results (race results could possibly be parsed from the MPR)
-Images (preferably with comments on what you see in the picture)

Optionally, you could also supply league standings, or perhaps a link to league standings on your website. I'm not sure yet about this one.

So, what now?
Ok, so my main questions are :
-Do you want this new centralised league news section?
-How can I make things as easy as possible for you to post your league race results and news? (keep in mind the details I'd like to see in news items, as explained above)
-Are there any methods of automation that you would prefer? Manual news submission will be possible as well of course, but I want to help you make your life easier by not having to manually post news in multiple places.
I could for example grab all the news details via rss / xml if you can provide that. I hope we can find out if this is feasible for enough leagues - is this technically viable for you? Do you have self written software to run your league website or do you use a downloaded package to create websites with? Do you have the knowledge to create any news submission automation?

This new leagues section will contain some more things as well, but I wanted to start a discussion about the news part first if possible.

So what are your thoughts?

This sounds like an awesome idea Victor

+1 from me.

Maybe a search function for the leagues so that people looking for a league can find one that suits their needs e.t.c Time Zone/Cars/Abilities?

yes orion and me have been brainstorming a bit alread and there are many possibilities. But I'd like to stick to the basics first If this league registration and news posting stuff can be setup properly, then the rest should be relatively easy.

Quote :

-Do you want this new centralised league news section?

Yes please! Apart from giving drivers one place to go for up-to-date league information and results, this would raise the profile of leagues which are submitted to it. It is nice to see or hear some talk of development to help league administrators.

Quote :

-How can I make things as easy as possible for you to post your league race results and news? (keep in mind the details I'd like to see i news items, as explained above)

I cant answer this right now, but what you've posted already sounds great, just what is needed. I will have a think and get back.

Quote :

-Are there any methods of automation that you would prefer? Manual news submission will be possible as well of course, but I want to help you make your life easier by not having to manually post news in multiple places.

As long as there is a manual process available, xml would be the way to go personally, again, ill jot some thoughts down.

Sounds positive for league administrators and drivers alike!

I'm wondering how many different forums or cms people actualy use. It would be great if people could develop some classes to implement for example xml output according to a specification we can define, and make those classes available for everyone using the same cms. This can save a lot time

Also, a league section in lfsw can give a lot possibilities to league admins to showcase their league and aquire new memers
So if you have ideas what features would be nice, post them. Maybe in a separate thread though, because this one is just for getting started and finding out about whats the best way to make a nice automatic news submission, or what way is the easiest.

Quote from mkinnov8 :

YAs long as there is a manual process available, xml would be the way to go personally, again, ill jot some thoughts down.

thanks and yes, just a note for all, I'm hoping to find out what's techincally needed to make things automated. Like orion pointed out already, I'm not sure how many people use self written software or downloaded packages for their league website and what everyone can easily do to make things automated.

Wow, amazing! I can't wait to see/hear more about this. I did see one site a long time ago where you could register your LFS leagues and events and such, but have since lost where it was. It might be of interest so I will try finding it again... I remember registering the H2H stuff there and viewing some other league info.

Quote from Victor :

-Do you want this new centralised league news section?

Yes this would be great

Quote from Victor :

-How can I make things as easy as possible for you to post your league race results and news?

If the race results could be parsed from the MPR with an option to also add later penalties (like +15 or +30 seconds including rearranging the final results automatically) that would be perfect.
In most of the leagues I race, have raced, manage or have managed it was usually like that, that penalties had to be given out after the race so the original race results from the MPR was fine but somehow also useless as they always have to be corrected (via excel or by hand or other third party stuff etc.). So an option to also do that would be fantastic and could save a lot of work and time for Admins.

Quote from Victor :

-Are there any methods of automation that you would prefer?
I could for example grab all the news details via rss / xml if you can provide that.

If it would be possible to grab things like this (joomla website)
http://www.triple7racing.net/content/view/142/1/
or that
http://www.triple7racing.net/content/view/147/1/
without writing and arranging it for a second time then it would be a huge step into the right direction imo.

Quote from Victor :

Optionally, you could also supply league standings, or perhaps a link to league standings on your website. I'm not sure yet about this one.

Links to the standings (if they can't also be done on LFS World) can be placed easily into the League-News np. At least it should be possible to link to them or to show them somehow.

All in all I like the idea to also have something like that centralised on LFS World

Quote from BBO@BSR :

If the race results could be parsed from the MPR with an option to also add later penalties (like +15 or +30 seconds including rearranging the final results automatically) that would be perfect.
In most of the leagues I race, have raced, manage or have managed it was usually like that, that penalties had to be given out after the race so the original race results from the MPR was fine but somehow also useless as they always have to be corrected (via excel or by hand or other third party stuff etc.). So an option to also do that would be fantastic and could save a lot of work and time for Admins.

Thanks for sharing the experience. This is stuff I like to hear.

I'm thinking about just having the results editable manually, but if you provide an MPR, it will parse that to fill in the results automatically. If then afterwards you want to change something, you just edit the results. Should be very doable.

It would also be good if teams in the league were listed with number order (via standings or admin given numbers) and then you could click each team and get information about them. (example)

Edit: also referring to bbo's penalty system, a points deduction system too, not just time penalties.

I'd like to narrow the techincal side of things down a bit and write down all the information that _could_ be passed along via for example XML :

-some unique id for this news item
-date
-title
-text (maybe it can contain html tags)
-images (can be multiple entries, all containing the url to the image and a comment)
-mpr url (one or more)
-results :
----Pos-Name-Time-Penalty-etc.
-standings url

Images can be supplied separately (in which case I would put them nicely underneath each other to the right of the news post), or they can be put in the news text itself, if you want your images to be placed inline with your text.

I'm still thinking about supporting some html tags for the text and inline images or not allowing html but going for bbcode. I think however that html would be a preferred option since that's what many will be using in their news posts already? I'm curious about that one.

Regarding the results, if results are given in the XML, I would use that and not parse the MPR.
I would display them in the same order as you provide them. Also the Name field can be a username or a team name, that would be up to you. Or maybe separate fields could be used to discern between racernames and team names more easily. We'll see

really great to hear about development in that direction

some good ideas were given about automation, analyzing mpr's and providing stats about that is a very important thing. i'm a little bit experienced in writing race reports and the most important for me is have informations to understand what was going on in the race. some used race stats have a "race time progress"-graph and it's a good information base, but i think the info in the mpr are more detailed as usaly shown. so one idea could be to have some kind of sophisticated analyse tool (as idea: zoomable race graphs), so report writers can pick the right scenes in the replays. i think the most people do it like this (if they were not part of the race or present as admin), you need information to put a good race report together.

for transfering news my suggestion would go to html. perhaps leagues can upload their css-files to have a unique style when rendering. with that you can do the most things which are important and writers know how it will be rendered.

an automation according to pictures could be some overlayer, the admins can upload and when they upload screenshots the overlay will be added to the resulting images, so as an example, all pictures from one league have the league logo and league url within the image and the images get a unique league dependent style too.

when it goes to other topics beside automating news, i have a lot of ideas. imo the most missing place is one, where league interested racers can find all needed info about existing leagues. and on the other side is providing a good league presentation a lot of coding work and imo the biggest step to go to start a league. from the view of a racer i wannan know all conditions of a league, their rules set, durations, tracks, participants, stats about participants, a tracker for upcoming events (ingame ) and a lot more. from the admin point you need a lot of tools for managing participants, making standings, organize race marshalls to view live races or analyze complaints, adding penalties and also here a lot more.

i think the most racers dont know a lot of leagues, there are some very well known ones but it's very hard to get all the stuff together to provide a well organized league. so the news are a very good start to provide information about the existing leagues, so everbody can recognize them. providing an interface for all aspects of league administration would really, really be a great and unique feature to lfs

What's the aim for this new system? Is it to create a centralized news system in lfsw about all leagues that are running so you can find all news and infos in one place? Or is it to create a system in lfsw for league management for drivers and admins? Simply put is it about getting people to know that "a league x" is running or is it about getting more drivers into that league x?

As I see it, people are not really interested about many leagues, mostly people are interested following the leagues that they are driving in, or their friend or team member is. While the dirver might want to see as much stats as possible the other one is basically interested only seeing the results table.

How is the separation between lfsw and the league website being done? Is having a website still a requirement for leagues even if the same information can/could be found later on on lfsw? How much information is there planned to be displayed in lfsw? Rules, penalties, race reports etc? Writing race reports is not something most people have time or ability for. Couldn't all this be done on lfsw so that having a web page could be something extra the admins can have if they want to?

How is the relation of lfsforum and lfsw going to be after this? Currently people use lfsforum a lot too for league management, news and other talking. By taking a glance on the league's lfsforum subsection you can very easily and quickly see what's going on. The thing is, most of us don't visit lfsw much and making it an infocenter still might not get enough people to visit lfsw if a smiole thread can tell everthing they want on lfsforum. Another thing is the calendar on lfsforum. Could the calendar be filled automatically by lfsw when you put in the league dates and times. Or is there a plan to make a calendar in lfsw?


Anyways, below are some ideas:
- drivers apply for a league/admins accept the applications
- drivers could also be required to "register" for all individual events (within time limits) as well to make sure everyone is racing
- able to search for leagues per cars/tracks/times&dates
- ability to create a list of triggers for leagues, a system that would automatically notify drivers when a league that has my favourite cars or friends in them
- support for individual races, one-off events
- league stats, possibly generated automatically from the race results. Also possible for the league admin to create the points tables and allow/disallow what stats are shown on lfsw (if the league is not running for team championship the corresponding stat is not shown)
- everything linked so all team and player names are clickable for more infos/stats

Please don't overthink this. Nothing will change about existing schemes.
I just want an extra place that makes it easy to follow leagues. This grew out of a personal interest and I noticed that I couldn't really find what was going on until it was too late. I want some nice and simple pages that show me results and schedules.
I am not interested in providing a place where leagues can actually run their league. I'm also not going to change anything about the league sections here on the forum. People will still need to request one as usual and they need to have some sort of track record and a website of their own.

It's just an extra place for more information, placed in a visible place on lfsworld and I want to put headlines at the top of the forum's main page as well to put LFS racing in the spotlight more.

Quote from Victor :

So, what now?
Ok, so my main questions are :
-Do you want this new centralised league news section?
-How can I make things as easy as possible for you to post your league race results and news? (keep in mind the details I'd like to see in news items, as explained above)
-Are there any methods of automation that you would prefer? Manual news submission will be possible as well of course, but I want to help you make your life easier by not having to manually post news in multiple places.
I could for example grab all the news details via rss / xml if you can provide that. I hope we can find out if this is feasible for enough leagues - is this technically viable for you? Do you have self written software to run your league website or do you use a downloaded package to create websites with? Do you have the knowledge to create any news submission automation?

This new leagues section will contain some more things as well, but I wanted to start a discussion about the news part first if possible.

So what are your thoughts?

-Do you want this new centralised league news section?
Yes it could be useful for us becasue other members would be able to know about us.

-How can I make things as easy as possible for you to post your league race results and news? (keep in mind the details I'd like to see in news items, as explained above)
So far I have been using cutenews to write a news report for every race with images and all the results.

-Are there any methods of automation that you would prefer? Manual news submission will be possible as well of course, but I want to help you make your life easier by not having to manually post news in multiple places.
I could for example grab all the news details via rss / xml if you can provide that. I hope we can find out if this is feasible for enough leagues - is this technically viable for you? Do you have self written software to run your league website or do you use a downloaded package to create websites with?

This sounds good becasue the news I worte in my website will be easy to pull to the centralize system, any system you choose I will have to leran about it but it will be great to work all the leagues under one sysytem.

Do you have the knowledge to create any news submission automation?
Not is my case, the webmaster did the programming and I just log in and write the news.

I hope my comments are useful for the this new content.

Quote from Victor :

It's just an extra place for more information, placed in a visible place on lfsworld and I want to put headlines at the top of the forum's main page as well to put LFS racing in the spotlight more.

For who?

So it is more a web page which has the results of latest league races? Who reads those? What does it offer that a thread or a section on lfsforum doesn't?

I don't really see the audience you are catering for. lfsnews didn't have enough audience to keep it going and the league admins/other members didn't have time to write news. To put it bluntly, if I want to know more about certain league I'll visit their sub section on this forum or their web site. I don't see what "extra" this lfsw news service could offer

Regarding race reports, one thing I realised from both my experience as a league admin and as a competitor is that no-one wants to write race reports in reporter style (and those that do are not necessarily good writers - no offence intended, i've just read some aweful ones).

However drivers often like to post about their experience in the race just gone, so I factored this into my site design for STCC for season 2 - although it is unlikely to see the light of day. The concept was simple, rather than write a report for the race and have all that golden juicey commentary locked away in the drivers forum, I gave each team competing their own "blog" page.

Drivers are writing about their races anyway, it makes more sense to use that than to create extra work.

My approach was to drive it off of a forum, and of course people could even respond and have discussion, but for LFS World this wouldnt work so well. However, I see no problem in coming up with an approach that used this aspect. It would require shifting more stuff that is usually the domain of internal league forums into LFSWorld, but I think that in itself would finaly see LFS World becoming what it could be.

This is the page I was building on my league showing the approach I was planning on: http://simtouringcarcup.com/ta ... s.php?team=STCC+TEAM+TEST

I think an adaption from this might be much less time investment to keep running, and less likely to see it go the way of LFS News.

from the german forum:

[BiA]Luder (Jörg Bauer)

Quote :

nice idea,

but why not impementing a parser that can output the result like "LFS Points". That way, we can ensure that the parser will be compatible for updates

Currently, LFS Point can export xml and html

example: lfsworld con "Parse ur mpr", select the replay .... ratta ratta ...... Save as *.xml or *.html, done.

The result output can be adjusted to fit the layout and made available (on the league site).

That's how I wish to have it.

However, thats just an idea.

PS: http://sls.simracing.pl/ <----- LFS compatible !

PPS: we MUST NOT forget that modifiying the results must be available also after the race, for eample for protests

soucyy (Thomas Huber)

Quote :

Why not just this possibility?: The admin of a league on LFSW could select the race from one of the race results from one of the drivers, and get the results form this page?

Cause the lap times are included there.

Like Jörg mentioned, we must not forget that penalties can change the result later, and the league admin must be given the ability to edit the result.

haelje

Quote :

I have also written something on the original forum. I dont know if its important that vic knows in hat way this is implemented, and how we are getting the data from our various cms's into lfsworld. I would go the other way round: If there are for example handy editors present on lfsworld, so that the articles can be completely written there, then we lfsw only needs to provide the interface to export this. Then, the teams or leagues can fetch the standardized news and shot for example on their homepage. that way, the league-coders will do their impelemtation of this interface into their cms like he can do best.

I also noted some additional thoughts about a league system, but vic has written that its just about a news section for now. I would like to post a link about my thoughts for a league management system. we started with a brain storming in thi direction some time ago, but impementing such a software alone would be too time intensive:
http://1stbfa.raygina.de/forum ... ojekt_ligamanagement.html

[BiA]Luder (Jörg Bauer)

Quote :

Take a look at my link, there already is a completed php sql league sys

its free and can parse lfs replays (not tested)

my idea is based on standardizing the information from the race; with a possibility using lfsw.net, and update of the parser would be guaranteed.

imo it doesnt make sense to invent the wheel anew, the possibilities are already present (see imracing.pl and lfs points). Why not form a standard based on that? With the possibility of differnt exporting, its would be an easy task to fetch data from other leagues. So, use existing resources and keep the wheel round.

About simracing.pl: Im planning to use this for the GTR Evolution section.

haelje

Quote :

Seen the link, but I still wanted to post my thoughts about this. I didnt know that there was already a good system around (I knew lfs points though), thus I will take a closer look at this soon. Im definetely not a "wheel-new-inventor" either

[BiA]Luder (Jörg Bauer)

Quote :

As far as I understand this, its about feeding lfsnews

Then, the following might even be easier:

If you can "add" league admin in lfs, they should be given the ability to mark the race as league race (last race infortion). Those can surely be read form lfsw.net directly (instead of just details, also add an xml alongside)

This will then work for races that are already over. If you want to implement a way to mark the race before it actually takes place (maybe automatically according to the shedule), we need a function for thas aswell. (this will make selecting the racer afterwars unneccessary)

Victor will surely cope with the communication between lfsnews and lfsw already

Now there is still the question which leagues shall be included there? Will the names be displayed as real names or lfsnick? There are a lot details to consider if you want to make it nice.

PS: Exporting the races from the LFSW data into a new format will surely be the easiest way to begin with, cause then we dont even need o parse the replays.

If the involved leagues could be reached via an on url, that would be great. for example lfsworld.net/league

As you can see, my idea are coming one by one; because my english is not so great, Im explicitly writing this in Geran :P

Who likes can sum up my things and transpate into english, Im releasing my badly written texts to the public *gg*

ORION

Quote :

yeayea Im the one to translate all this later, just got no time right now

The idea of posting the news directly on lfsw in the first place seems to be pretty brillant to me. This would save vic a lot of time, and there will be a uniform standard, which wont stop working after an update from another league site.
Of course it must be ensured that league admins will actually post in lfsw at first.

some nice ideas around :up:

[BiA]Luder (Jörg Bauer)

Quote :

Yes that's what its about: dont create dependence on user tools, which will usually not be implemented from all league sites at all, or just in older versions and thus (maybe) incompatible.

Surely, the goal has to be making this directly from within LFS, in the replay section. Provide not just the function to watch the replay, but also Export as..... But of, I dont want too much, the Program will ease a lot of work upon direct impmenentation. At least we have a time table in the replays

Great idea Victor

We have our own system at ConeDodgers and after many months of doing reports Etc we now only do results

http://conedodgers.com/conedod ... com_wrapper&Itemid=26

but i am sure it can be changed to fit in with yours, however make it simple and standard. If its all automatic it can only be a step forward.

I am not sure that allowing anyone involved post a report would be a good thing as it may well get heated, imho it should be league admins only

If you can make your input automatic or simple "Fill in a form" and the output of the results, reports, Etc in a plain html format anyone could use it in a CMS or a website using an iframe

However its long been my hope that the LFS Server would have simple automatic output options, a points system, a script system (Like LFSBuddy or Lapper) and a server admin control panel that would help the server and league admins (Without using insim), after all its us that give users a place to race.

A centralized site for leagues is a nice idea, but I think that it should contain only the important informations and should not go into detail. Like RSS feeds, they also contain only a summary of the news and you have to go to the website to read the whole story.
If a league has sponsors it is also important that the audience sees this sponsors. On a centralized website this is not possible, so the user should have to visit the leagues website if he wants more detailed informations and here also the sponsors are presented.

So I think the main goal for a centralized league site should be that leagues have a place for presentation like what kind of league it is, the race schedule, a brief race result. etc.

Being able to either upload news via a REST url or have you read an RSS feed sounds like the best ideas to me.

I would also agree with Brilwing, that really a centralized site should concentrate on overall items (top level news) rather than more in-depth stuff.

If we take a look at LOTA (and CTRA I suppose is similiar in a way too) we have a variety of different series going on within the context of the LOTA web presense (i.e. Formula GP/GT Challenge, not to mention our mini-series, the series formerly known as StormCup, Monday Night Random Combo Cup, etc.). Trying to get present detailed information on everything going on in LOTA in a centralized site could be problematic.

As it stands we generally spit out the most important information into a main news channel which is RSS'd, but things could be modified to send news clips to LFS too.

Actually on this topic what I know us at LOTA would love is for LFS to spit out the race results in some type of XML format. Yes, we know about the stat InSim programs and have our own, but this would really be nice touch to LFS.

Quote from Victor :

Thanks for sharing the experience. This is stuff I like to hear.

I'm thinking about just having the results editable manually, but if you provide an MPR, it will parse that to fill in the results automatically. If then afterwards you want to change something, you just edit the results. Should be very doable.

That's too much; especially with regard to points system.

We at LOTA just want verbose stats on the race (i.e. what the spit and lap times and speeds were for each racer, positions at each lap and split, overall time and speed, final position, start position, when people made pit stops and what they did, etc.). As mentioned before we do have this with some InSim apps, but there are some hiccups (like tracking speeds at lap/splits) so not hugely important, but would be a nice touch.

Once people have the stats output from the race (or maybe they are embedded in the replay... but that seems like a more bulky option) they can do whatever they want, generate whatever point scheme they want to use, etc.

There is a fine line between something like this not doing enough (i.e. only reporting start/finish positions or so forth) and too much (i.e. having a point system, scripting, etc).

Quote :

However its long been my hope that the LFS Server would have simple automatic output options, a points system, a script system (Like LFSBuddy or Lapper) and a server admin control panel that would help the server and league admins (Without using insim), after all its us that give users a place to race.

Hello, my name is Mika Radmer. I am the Head Admin of the GameStar League (GSL). We will give our answers to the following questions as good as i can in english because i know its sometimes strange to understand ! Thanks for your ideas in supporting leagues and the LFS News website (and the new anti-cutting-option)!

Q: Do you want this new centralised league news section?
A: We are still interested in centralised league news section, because sponsors and drivers want to notice and read informations in different languages for their public relations.

Q: How can I make things as easy as possible for you to post your league race results and news? (keep in mind the details I'd like to see in news items, as explained above)
A: Fill-out-format and .csv (excel) uploads. Maybe an option to bring up race-announcers in jpg. or different fileformats.

Q: Are there any methods of automation that you would prefer? Manual news submission will be possible as well of course, but I want to help you make your life easier by not having to manually post news in multiple places. I could for example grab all the news details via rss / xml if you can provide that. I hope we can find out if this is feasible for enough leagues - is this technically viable for you?
A: The RSS-Option is quite the best option, but we would like to edit it sometimes to bring it more visible. But for that fact it is ok, so we can easily share our news with your site.

Q: Do you have self written software to run your league website or do you use a downloaded package to create websites with?
A: We use the Wordpress-Applications and a handmade excel-sheet to manage the scores and standings. For the stats we use the LFS-Stats-tool.

Q: Do you have the knowledge to create any news submission automation?
A: No. Sorry...


We hope it would help you!

Quote :

Do you have self written software to run your league website or do you use a downloaded package to create websites with?

We use a hacked up forum but are moving to a custom website with an attached forum (SMF gah).

Quote :

Do you have the knowledge to create any news submission automation?

Of course.

Quote from Michael Radmer :

A: Fill-out-format and .csv (excel) uploads. Maybe an option to bring up race-announcers in jpg. or different fileformats.

.CSV format?! With text data? Mmms.... better not use any commas.

Quote from Michael Radmer :

A: The RSS-Option is quite the best option, but we would like to edit it sometimes to bring it more visible. But for that fact it is ok, so we can easily share our news with your site.

With RSS you could do put whatever you wanted in it. Now you might have to make changes to your software package to accomplish it or setup specific forum, news area, etc. but I would tend to think the less work on Victor to setup the better for automation.

I have an self written software to manage our leagues (Austrian Championship, A-Cup and Summer-Challenge). Besides the race result and the stats it also calculates the standings.
I think that a XML based exchange format is the best option, and I think that it is not a very difficult task to update my tool to generate that xml with the proper data.

What about the transmission of this data file. Is it pull by the centralized league tool of has the admin an upload form at lfsworld?
Both ways are fine for me. (but I think the upload option is the better one)

sounds great!

one suggestion from my side:

a league admin should be able to register drivers to the league or actually an league-registration "thing". if there is an "official" point of registration provided by lfs, this will make an extra thread and manual "verification" obsolete. i think this can also make every inscription to a league more "serious" and the dropout rate will go down if its "officially" written down and managed.

i wish drivers could also have some sort of "statistics" so people know exactly in which league they were, which position they had and why the did not start in 8 leagues they did sign up.