Quote from Riders Motion :

I hope Scawen will take this thread seriously. A lot of peoples voted for the two 'Yes'. A lot more than for the 'No'.

If he would take every thread and poll seriously that goes on around here, LFS would be a playground for kids driving on servers imitating cruising on public streets in race tracks with silly layouts.

Oh wait, it already is. Nevermind.

OmniMoAK

Quote from kaynd :

IRL some engineers do the R&D, products are made by that and being sold to customers…
That’s not because you can’t put whatever spring or damper you want… but because it’s just inefficient.
Even in these canned products… you have a perfectly matched damper with a specific spring regarding the weight that it’s going to hold, and then you get 8-16 settings to fine tune your damping. If you put different springs you have to re-valve your dampers in order to match with them, so you can again have that small available range of settings to fine tune your vehicle.
Who is going to play that R&D role in LFS? Why I am not able to do that myself?

You might not know always the exact values, but there are usualy ways to have something a litle softer or harder if you spend some energy to search.
You might see that 0.1 damping value in LFS and look to you like "yeah right"
But not all this damping values spectrum is usable…
Taking as an example the rear spring of the XFG hard track setup.
For that 40NM spring, 4.2Ns/mm to 5.6Ns/mm is mainly the effective rebound damping range. (~70-95%). There are just 14 effective settings for that spring rate if you do not want to overdamp it… And maybe 10 more if you do not care passing in some extent the critical damping. (Blame the silk smooth tracks for not having bad consequences on traction about that)
In fact, IRL there are some adjustable dampers (or paired coil over kit) that claim to have a range of 30-40 settings all paired with a small range of springs. (I am talking about 1000-2000$ sets)
Also it might seem illogical… but there are many who do things like that and do not even race the car on a track.
Small, cheap, sport oriented cars are really tempting to tune in almost any aspect. (ok you have to be that kind of person that does things by himself or else any budget will just evaporate)
But as I said if you can physically change a spring, why can’t you change anything else that you can? Because it costs? You already said that you do not have to be “poor” in a sim. (It’s not about being poor, it’s just about not having enough money for all that which is completely ok )

I already stated though that some adjustments you can not do physically in any car, could be narrowed to more realistic values. In that category mainly fails the transmission and max brake force. Some transmission gears are not even physically possible to produce by having 0.001 ratio adjusting abilities.
But even this is not that important for the evolution of this sim.

A further tire physics improvement is the way to go, in order to see realistic setups some day.

Selectable setup restrictions by the server would be really interesting, mainly for league racing or pickup racing with already provided setups by the server in order to avoid confusion.

kaynd,

I agree 100% with your points, but sadly I guess I want my Sim racing life to represent the my real life, no money for coil overs no 100% fine tuning for me. And that Server side setup requirements would be best compromise, although hectic to manage

Well I wouldnt mind if they were more restricted, it doesnt bothe me too much though

Quote from kaynd :

You are right. In fact I am not worried that much. It’s just me, bringing out my bad character when I feel helpless knowing that there is no point arguing about some matters because of the ignorance I see, reading many responses in forums generally.

[edit]


here we go... if you are able to change just one spring... even that rated as "hard" in case you do not want to know the stiffness...
Then you are able to put some cheap adjusting bolts that fit in most McPherson strut suspensions and give you usualy a room of +/-1.5 to +/- 3 degrees camber adjustment with absolute accuracy...
There are even some sport oriented cars (nothing exotic) where you have that adjustment ability by factory.

I think you're missing the point of a lot of the posts and making unjustafiable character assesments on the part of the posters.

I haven't seen anyone state that they would like limited set ups because they "just can't be bothered with it".

People keep going on about how you can buy after market parts. Yes that's true, but what percentage of the population actually do? and how realistic is it to work on the assumption that those parts should be available on all cars?? where do you draw the line? some of the adjustments that are available after market are either bespoke or very expensive and therefore not truely available in a "mass market" sense. The vast majority of sensibly priced after market parts have very limited adjustability. So even "race" spec suspsension systems available on the market do not have such things as infinitely adjustable rebound/compression damping, or ride height or spring settings. Generally speaking you go out and buy a config and then your stuck with it, (baring limited damping and ride height adjustments on the most expensive coil overs).

All people are really expressing is that LFS should be made more realistic with regards to the adjustability available on the various cars in the sim. With adjustability being dependant on the car type and the level likely to be found on a typical real car of the same type. If the tin tops in LFS are meant to be "tuned" versions of road cars then obviously they should have the kind of adjustability that would be available on mass market after market parts. In reality this essentially just means a few after market suspension options as only the extremely dedicated modder will go as far as clutch changes let alone gearbox changes !

IMO the Tin Tops should potentially fit in to three categories, depending on the actual car:

Stock - Little or no adjustability - essentially a real (or based on real) road going version of a car.

Track Day - Adjustability limited to choices of mass produced after market suspension/brake/road tyre alternatives.

WRC/Touring Car/GT - Full cup version of the car with more power, less weight, race tyres/brakes/suspension/spoilers/splitters with all the realistic level of adjustability that comes with such a car.

Single Seaters of course would have the kind of adjustments available on the typical race series type they are emulating.

Having the setups locked is ridiculous and a total put off.

Assume the cars all have coil overs, adjustable sway bars and shocks, camber plates, LSD's. It's a simulator yeah, BUT IT'S STILL A GAME. Why not just just take away the steering wheel then and let the car drive itself? Might as well if the setups were locked.


What there should be, is an IROC specification for a server. Where nothing can be done to the car besides gas and psi settings.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Imho there just isn't such a thing called unrealistic setup.

there is.

like tire pressure too high for safety, camber/caster angles that is physically impossible with the suspension design and physical packaging, ride height so low that you rub the wheel arch etc.

Quote from JJ72 :

ride height so low that you rub the wheel arch etc.

Or in the case of LFS, that you magically go through the wheel arch.

Quote from JJ72 :

there is.

like tire pressure too high for safety, camber/caster angles that is physically impossible with the suspension design and physical packaging, ride height so low that you rub the wheel arch etc.

So at some point you cross the line between real and unreal. Where is that line? It is not physically impossible if it works. Unless something is not simulated or taken into consideration the system is unfinished but not necessary unrealistic.

Tbh I've always found it weird that there are always these setup experts (not meaning you jj) who come and tell someone else that their setup is unrealistic and that thing shouldn't be used. Setup making is not about first reading thousands of pages of automotive literature to know the "limits" of what you can and cannot do before making a setup. Making a setup is about making the setup fast at given parameters (race lentgh, rules, driving style etc.) is the thing. To make the setup as fast as the sim's rules alow it to become, not be limited by some idealistic barriers that are "based on real life".

And to add to the topic, I think there were surely enough adjustability in the cars even if they were realistically limited to mimic their real life counterparts. Total ban is not realistic as is not the current situation of total freedom. I don't think anything will be done to it though. It could have been already done so many times that it is very clear that some arabic language is more important than realistic setup options. Or shinier wheels or whatever.

Quote from Matrixi :

If he would take every thread and poll seriously that goes on around here, LFS would be a playground for kids driving on servers imitating cruising on public streets in race tracks with silly layouts.

Have a point.

After thinking about it for a while and talking to a few guys about it.. I retract my statements about making setups controlled or locked to some degree, the reason being:
Sure it's not 'realistic'... and in real life, you wouldn't be able to change the spring rate or damper settings in a XFG for example, sure. The main reason being money and time. Now in LFS, you don't have money, and everything in the setup is so easy. In real life, if you had no limitations of time or money, would you test spring rate settings, damper settings etc to go faster? I know I would.

ideally id like to see engine temp added, then things like A:F, timing and boost adjustable, then obviously the more aggressive your settings, the harder on the engine, higher temp causes loss of power then eventually a blown engine. would make for some interesting races and tactics.

the only way to cure this arugment is for the option to be allowed server side to limit setings on road cars

Or to not limit them at all.

I agree with having these setup restrictions in server side, for both road and race cars, so every competition has their allowed values. This is more or less already done in some servers like CTRA UF-BR.

Quote from JJ72 :

like tire pressure too high for safety, camber/caster angles that is physically impossible with the suspension design and physical packaging, ride height so low that you rub the wheel arch etc.

I think both you and Hyperactive have a point.

A considerable part of the unrealism found in sets is due to shortcomings in LFS itself. Those should be solved by introducing new code (e.g. checks on the ride height) and fixing in the physics model (easier said than done, one would say)

I'm still thinking some of the options now available should be removed but if server-side limitations can make everyone happy, preserving freedom of choice for those who like tampering and spec-racing for those occasions where it would be, I'm all for it.

Quote from [DUcK] :

After thinking about it for a while and talking to a few guys about it.. I retract my statements about making setups controlled or locked to some degree, the reason being:
Sure it's not 'realistic'... and in real life, you wouldn't be able to change the spring rate or damper settings in a XFG for example, sure. The main reason being money and time. Now in LFS, you don't have money, and everything in the setup is so easy. In real life, if you had no limitations of time or money, would you test spring rate settings, damper settings etc to go faster? I know I would.

Well if the only limitation in the way is time and money you would also increase the engine power output or swap it for another, put in micro-second fast sequential gear changers, strip the interior completely, put bigger wheels and stickier tyres on, full slicks why not, it's not like you couldn't stiffen the suspension and boost the brakes to take advantage, reduce the weight further etc etc.

LFS knows that a line has to be drawn for competition to exist, and for LFS to not be a "mods" game. My issue is simply with where that line is drawn.

Sure you could do all the things you said if money and time were no limit (plus all the things I mentioned), but it's meant to be a competitive environment and in one of those in real life you almost certainly could not do all the things you mentioned and definitely not the things I mentioned.
Regulations in a grass-roots, low-level or single-model cup would frequently mean everyone is running uniform parts and components, some completely standard, none with infinite adjustability.

I think that the LFS competition environment should at least attempt to mimic real-world equivalents.

That said I do have an issue with the above when the cars have no roll-cages, it's contradictory. I rather wish they'd put them in authenticity's sake.

Well yeah you would sinbad, but only what you can do within the rules. LFS has rules of what you are allowed to do to the cars (which is nothing, except setup), so that's all you can do.

road cars..

brakes.. leave it the way it is.
Suspension.. anti roll only
steering.. max lock and both toes
Final drive.. final drive ratio with no single gear tweaking and open,locked diff
tires.. leave it the way it is.

Quote from [DUcK] :

Well yeah you would sinbad, but only what you can do within the rules. LFS has rules of what you are allowed to do to the cars (which is nothing, except setup), so that's all you can do.

And the issue is with what the rules irl would allow right? I don't think I made that unclear.

Yeah but it's not real life, is it? As I said, if you could play with all the stuff you can tweak in LFS atm irl, you would do it, am I wrong? What I'm saying is leave it the way it is, just improve other stuff like the physics model, mainly tyres

Quote from [DUcK] :

Yeah but it's not real life, is it? As I said, if you could play with all the stuff you can tweak in LFS atm irl, you would do it, am I wrong? What I'm saying is leave it the way it is, just improve other stuff like the physics model, mainly tyres

That's not really an argument is it? What good is improving the physics or tyre model to make it more like real life, if in the end any shortcomings can be excused or ignored by simply saying "Yeah but it's not real life, is it?". Might as well just leave everything like it is now throw in 3 tracks 5 cars and say "Voila S3!".

Leaving it like it is is one thing, but really it should never have been the way it is. Maybe as a technical showcase, a demonstration of LFS's capabilities, detail, but that's as far as it should have gone in my opinion. It's time to put these "realistic" physics into a more "realistic" and authentic package.

I think allowing setups for road cars should just be a serverside option, and the server should be able to supply a setup for all clients to use if so desired, or everyone can just be forced to use the default setup.

I would like to see some more limitations on the setup, but only on stuff that's physically impossible. "Strange" spring and damper ratio's might be silly, but not physically impossible to do. Same goes for tire pressures, silly but not impossible.

As an addition, i would like to see an option on the server to limit the setup options. Something like this:
[ ] Allow ride height adjustments
[ ] Allow spring / damper adjustments
[ ] Allow camber / caster / toe adjustments
[ ] Allow Gearbox adjustments

That way a server can run a "fully stock" race (basically like a cup race), or select some options to allow more freedom of adjustment.

Quote from sinbad :

And the issue is with what the rules irl would allow right? I don't think I made that unclear.

Rules and limitations are chosen by the organizers of each real life league or event... not by “God” who made physics or the entire “word” in where we live and some of us race.

LFS is that visual environment where we all race. There is no need to restrict the entire world in order to make standard classes limiting the existing setup freedom.
This should be a tool for LFS Hosts – the equivalent of league or event organizers IRL.