RodeoSheep, L56,Domin8tr....I'm still here though , Have been since very first demo

I think the simplest way to temporarily solve the problem right now is to use the LFS world Buddy list system more as already mentioned. I agree with Fordman that things have gotten worse as LFS becomes more popular (that's the nature of the beast I'm afraid), but until a new system is implemented, we could all start using a system that is already in place. I cant remember the last time I raced some of the 'old timers', but I havent added them to my buddy list (I am guilty too in this respect).

I also think vykos's idea of a pw sharing amongst fair drivers is a good one too

Just my 10 cents worth

Yes and the Sauber attracts even more. But fortunately Scavier built the oval, so the majority of the poor drivers stay there and don't interfere with the proper racing. A few obviously slip through the net and accidentally end up on race tracks, and they should be encouraged to rise above the oval 'drivers', not banned from them.

I'm not convinced that a central ban system would be beneficial. It will likely be open to abuse and personal vendettas against people - say Stoney was in charge there would be a good change Kev would be insta-banned. The best way is patience in my opinion. I've been punted off a few times recently (a couple of times out of spite after I bumped them off by accident), and I've done my bit of bumping - it's what happens when you have a mixture of dring styles, experience (both generally and on a particular car/track), racecraft, awareness etc. I like to think I generally know where people are around me, or that I'll plan my escape route should I get a bump under braking, but a lot of people (including the specialists at certain tracks who rarely get to race and as such are a bit crap at it) don't worry about these skills.

The ONLY way I can see universal bans working is if the database is totally viewable, and the 'evidence' is available for download so that it may be challenged later. I realise not all servers will use this option, but I'm still concerned that our intervention would not ultimately be for the greater good.

Quote from Fetzo :

maybe it has something to do with the bigger servers. but there is a much higher tollerance for wrecking / ruthless driving on the servers today.

no one seems to care if some idiot hates you that much, that he ruins your race EVERY time. because he is only ruining the race of you and some others the other 15 racers just don't care.

and even if he produces repeatedly a pileup in t1, all drivers are eager to press shift+r, but no one ever things about kicking the one who constantly ruins other races, because most of the time he didn't manage to wreck the whole drivers field.

I never vote unless I've witnessed the accident first hand. If I'm half a lap away how is it fair that I can vote on a driver I can't even see?

I've seen too many people instantly hit the 'yes' button as soon as a vote comes up and then when the wrecker retalitates with a kick request of his own they're equally quick to hit yes again, which just proves how flawed the voting system is and why I rely on first hand knowledge before deciding.

It's the same for first corner wrecks, most people are inclined to simply restart than point the finger purely because it's hardly ever the fault of just one person and even then it isn't always obvious who caused the wreck when you're all jostling for position.

People here calling for the wreckers to be perma-banned and blacklisted across LFS servers need to be realistic, enforcing those kind of ideals will only lead to elitism and knee jerk reactions. It's a computer game, we shouldn't be having commitee meetings over something as trivial as a few intentional accidents in a pickup race. If you want a perfectly controlled enviroment then stick to offline racing or closed team and league servers just like in any other online game.

In general though I do feel that people exaggerate just how badly the whole wrecker situation is, I play on the demo servers a lot and the vast majority of my races are squeeky clean.

Quote from WorldFamous :

I never vote unless I've witnessed the accident first hand. If I'm half a lap away how is it fair that I can vote on a driver I can't even see?

I've seen too many people instantly hit the 'yes' button as soon as a vote comes up and then when the wrecker retalitates with a kick request of his own they're equally quick to hit yes again, which just proves how flawed the voting system is and why I rely on first hand knowledge before deciding.

It's the same for first corner wrecks, most people are inclined to simply restart than point the finger purely because it's hardly ever the fault of just one person and even then it isn't always obvious who caused the wreck when you're all jostling for position.

People here calling for the wreckers to be perma-banned and blacklisted across LFS servers need to be realistic, enforcing those kind of ideals will only lead to elitism and knee jerk reactions. It's a computer game, we shouldn't be having commitee meetings over something as trivial as a few intentional accidents in a pickup race. If you want a perfectly controlled enviroment then stick to offline racing or closed team and league servers just like in any other online game.

In general though I do feel that people exaggerate just how badly the whole wrecker situation is, I play on the demo servers a lot and the vast majority of my races are squeeky clean.

I have to agree with you on some of this. If I don't see the incident I don't vote, but on the other hand, if a trust worthy person instigated the vote, then I will vote, as it would of had to been pretty bad for that person to start a vote ( i.e. Team M8 ).

These things are not "Trivial Intentional Accidents in Pick Up races" They happen, jesus, even I am guilty of accidents sometimes. This is people purposly driving the wrong way around a one way circuit, and then hit you head on. Like that Picture I posted. He had to drive 3/4 of the track to hit me where he did.

I am not saying that I want every race I have to be like a league race, it would be great to have a race where every car is going around in the same direction.

"In general though I do feel that people exaggerate just how badly the whole wrecker situation is, I play on the demo servers a lot and the vast majority of my races are squeeky clean"

Thats because they have all brought S2 licenses

I agree on the voting, I try to ignore it. My biggest gripe with it is that people call for a vote and the try to rally support for it - instead of explaining the problem first and making a vote out of a general consensus.

It makes me wonder if the vote started because somebody wanted to overtake, but didn't prepare for that right either.

Quote from Fordman :

I am not saying that I want every race I have to be like a league race, it would be great to have a race where every car is going around in the same direction.

Well there is some server thing running (the oval server has it) that auto-spectates people who crash and drive the wrong way. While I hated the auto-spectate for crash, the auto-spectate for wrong way drivers would be a good thing to use.

Just have to convince more server admins to run it.

I agree on the voting, I try to ignore it. My biggest gripe with it is that people call for a vote and the try to rally support for it - instead of explaining the problem first and making a vote out of a general consensus. How is a field of drivers going to be able to agree with you if they dont know why you are voting?

It makes me wonder if the vote started because somebody wanted to overtake, but didn't prepare for that right either.

I only vote when two drivers are arguing with each other and I figure getting rid of one will restore some peace, if one is swearing, i'll wait for a vote to come up that bans the one who swears.

As my team has its own server, I normally race there and use admin rights to kick/ban n00bs that don't listen/learn/respect and ban wreckers that I either see or get reports on from SamH over at TeamCCUK servers.

If I'm on another server and see these people doing stupid crap, I will either go to another server, or invite everyone there to come to the CoRe server, where I can shine up my kickin' & bannin' BOOTS. I've received about 15 reports of wreckers from SamH that have resulted in 999 day bans for about 8 or 9 of them.

Our server always runs in the "Wrong Way -> Spectate" mode.

Quote from WorldFamous :

...

i was talking about deliberate wrecking, not the typical t1 accidents. i just wanted to say, that even if he managed to wreck the whole drivers field (after harrassing only individuals the races before), other drivers don't react.

they don't even tell him, that he is doing something wrong. most of the time i am the only one trying to convince him to stop it. and i DON'T start votes at that time, simply because i know that no one will vote against him. they just don't care.

don't make me look like an insane banfreak, pls.

Quote from Rtsbasic :

Even just in the last few hours I've helped a couple of people as best I can with learning Aston Club, and in the last hour or so had a couple of very enjoyable races with several names I recognise from this forum..

Yup, one of which was me, I wish there were more people around like you who are willing to help out

With a few pointers from yourself I shaved nearly 3 seconds off my pb and could get mixed in with the racing rather than getting in peoples way on that track lol

Thanks again

Quote from Becky Rose :

I agree on the voting, I try to ignore it. My biggest gripe with it is that people call for a vote and the try to rally support for it - instead of explaining the problem first and making a vote out of a general consensus. How is a field of drivers going to be able to agree with you if they dont know why you are voting?

It makes me wonder if the vote started because somebody wanted to overtake, but didn't prepare for that right either.

I only vote when two drivers are arguing with each other and I figure getting rid of one will restore some peace, if one is swearing, i'll wait for a vote to come up that bans the one who swears.

I hate this as well, the worst is when someone goes into the back of you or blatantly causes a crash and then pits... and immediately votes to kick/ban you, meanwhile you are trying to make the best of the rest of the race and get a new pb or something so you can't defend yourself in the chat, whilst he/she is tapping away as you say trying to rally support for the kick/ban! It's crazy!

I always say to them afterwards "please save and view the replay and you will see what happened " then block messages so as not to get into a slanging match, that seems to do the trick!

Quote :

Quote:
Originally Posted by tristancliffe
I'm not convinced that a central ban system would be beneficial. It will likely be open to abuse and personal vendettas against people - say Stoney was in charge there would be a good change Kev would be insta-banned.


I understand the point you're making but I don't think it's all that likely. While I obviously don't get along with Stoney I doubt he'd do something petty like this (and I don't visit his team or club's servers anyway). Maybe other admins would, I don't know.

As far as im conserned, what happens on the track is the important part, the forums are just another part of it. But totally different to the track. I have no issue with Kev or anyone else on the track racing with respect to other drivers.

What I do have a problem with is being used on a forum in such a way tristan. Thats unfair, but somewhat expected.

Getting back to Fordman's point.

Im afraid I dont agree that the devs should do anything about this. I feel its the server administrators responsibility to ensure thier server is clean. A bad list, yeah fine cool. But I dont see it working. There are already some things to help combat "wreckers" in S2, and sorry again, ive seen them. They do exist.

Wrong way Kick/Ban/Spectate, No midrace join.. LFS lapper was heading in the right direction with its collision detection (needs improving from LFS Lapper dev and the LFS Devs).

Also, A ban list... is too much responsibility to be taken by any one person. I like the idea of reporting to a database.. But then thats public too, and isnt that the same as posting "he's a wrecker" all over a public forum, which is something I think we all hate.

[please take the comments as my opinions, me as a human being who happens to like to race online, not with any amount of hidden reasons to post]. Nothing more, please.

Quote from Hankstar :

I definitely see more garden-variety idiots than true wreckers, at all times of the day...often they're just inexperienced or have absolutely no idea about race etiquette or even common sense (i.e. they don't look before they pit out, they don't yield to blue flags, they try and race you during prac, incessant spamming for restarts or setups to name but a few examples).

I'm not sure if I can suggest anything useful except that more server admins (or even Scavier) disable mid-race join for anything shorter than 10 laps. Some games don't allow you to join a server at all (let alone a race) once the race has started. Lots of problems I encounter are caused by people joining (for example) a 5-lapper on lap 3 or 4, getting amongst a group who are fighting for position and ruining it for them (or crashing themselves and begging for a restart), then wondering why they're copping abuse. I haven't been online much lately though, so I'm not sure if it's getting worse or is about the same as normal...
Perhaps idiots/rookie mistakes are just things you have to deal with on public servers

I agree. I admit, I do spin more than most but I yield to blue flags, don't spam (when I ask for sets, I do it after the race.), look when I leave the pits etc.

IMHO we will have to live with wreckers.

I can't think of a good way to punish them without it being abused.

The main problem I see is that most misbehaviour (this is all except driving in the wrong direction) cannot be detected automatically and it just isn't possible to watch over all servers all the time. And it also seems impossible to me that somebody reviews all replays sent to a central ban-list to see if bad driving is included. And there would also still be different opinions about what is wrecking and what is an accident - who should decide this for everybody?

A license system would only punish the fair driving newbies. Why shouldn't they drive with experienced drivers? I can see no reason for that.

Like I already said driving in the wrong direction is the only misbehaviour that can be detected automatically without a doubt. So let this one be detected and punished with bans of increasing length for every time. Anything else - well let vote-bans rule or let the admins do it themselves.


And one thing about vote-bans. When I first started to race online I got very, very, very pissed about wreckers and senseless drivers. This was very much worse with GTR. So I often tried to vote those guys off. But even that sometimes led to nothing but pain. People were unwilling to kick/ban the most imaginable obvious wreckers. But then the wrecker started a vote against me and I was voted off immediately. I think you can imagine me being pissed even more, but this was not a single incident, that happened to me several times. So I nearly completely stopped to ever vote. And I surely don't vote if I didn't see the driver concerned wrecking with my own eyes.

sorry if im repeating what anyone else has suggested............

the Nascar racing sims had a kind of points system:

you raced with a skill level, from 0 - 10

everyone started at 0 and gained a level by how the finished in a race.

if you finished ahead of a driver 2 or more skill levels higher you were awarded 5 points, you lost 5 points if you finished below a driver 2 skill levels lower. there was more to it than just that............i just cant be arsed to type it all out!!!

the game averaged your 8 best point total of the last 10 races you did, the lowest results being dropped.

gradually you built up a skill level, noobs and wreckers rearly getting above 1 or 2, where as skilled fair racers averaged a skill level of 4,5 or 6.

my point being, when a server was started, the host could choose what skill level to set, say a server with a skill level of 3 or more meant drivers with a skill level of only 1 or 2 couldnt join.

i know it sounds complicated, but it did work.

anyway, thats my pennyworths.

cheers!

Quote from Fetzo :

maybe it has something to do with the bigger servers. but there is a much higher tollerance for wrecking / ruthless driving on the servers today.

no one seems to care if some idiot hates you that much, that he ruins your race ....... because he is only ruining the race of you and some others, the other 15 racers just don't care.

I totally agree.

It's been awhile since I drove and lead a race on an public S2 server and beeing wrecked by an Idiot (driving in the wrong direction). I explained i t to the others and then started a vote but no one voted.

Then he wrecked the new leader and he started a vote but none of the other drivers did something. I explained it again and told them that he is standing on the track and will do it again etc. - no reaction from the others - and then he wrecked the next leader...

Since that I mostly (99% of the time) only drive in league races or with trusted friends if they are online.

So my vote goes for a global ban-list (or something similar)

i agree the problem of wreckers on S2 licensed servers is going every day worse since months.

i mean real wreckers, not "noobs" a noob is slow, have a crappy setup, can't control his car, but don't rush into corner at full speed every time (especially at t1), don't drive in the wrong way, don't do impossible manouvers to block your perfectly prepared pass and very far from him, don't insult you when he just rammed into you, don't await to enter the track (from either a off-road or pit exit) just the exact moment that someone is passing and at full speed obviously.

to me a solution could be a server based crash recording (maximum 10 or 20 seconds) in mpr format wich the server will upload directly to lfs master server. such thing will record usernames involved in car by car contacts and scores a negative point for each of that player. crash record and report will be triggered either by "high speed" crashes automatically or by at least 3 users voting for "crash report".

i know negative points will be given also to innocent people, but here's th solution: the master server keeps updated the statistic distribution of users crashes and flags as a "dirty racers" those who have a number of crashes greater than the standard deviation of the crashes distribution and "clean racers" those who have less.
this is a smart (imho) way to distinguish innocent victims from active wreckers or simply "very guilty" people.
also every 3 complete races with at least 5 racers that are completed without any car to car crash, the master server delete one negative point from the user, this will guarrantee the possibility of redemption for bad or unluck people.

Quote from Honey :

i agree the problem of wreckers on S2 licensed servers is going every day worse since months.

i mean real wreckers, not "noobs" a noob is slow, have a crappy setup, can't control his car, but don't rush into corner at full speed every time (especially at t1), don't drive in the wrong way, don't do impossible manouvers to block your perfectly prepared pass and very far from him, don't insult you when he just rammed into you, don't await to enter the track (from either a off-road or pit exit) just the exact moment that someone is passing and at full speed obviously.

to me a solution could be a server based crash recording (maximum 10 or 20 seconds) in mpr format wich the server will upload directly to lfs master server. such thing will record usernames involved in car by car contacts and scores a negative point for each of that player. crash record and report will be triggered either by "high speed" crashes automatically or by at least 3 users voting for "crash report".

i know negative points will be given also to innocent people, but here's th solution: the master server keeps updated the statistic distribution of users crashes and flags as a "dirty racers" those who have a number of crashes greater than the standard deviation of the crashes distribution and "clean racers" those who have less.
this is a smart (imho) way to distinguish innocent victims from active wreckers or simply "very guilty" people.
also every 3 complete races with at least 5 racers that are completed without any car to car crash, the master server delete one negative point from the user, this will guarrantee the possibility of redemption for bad or unluck people.

that's an interesting idea
+1 on that one (or a variant of it) from me.

On the kicking issue, vote to kick should only allowed in the following circumstances

• A driver uses obscene language on the chat (using a list of oscenities)
  
• A driver makes contact with another car after the 1st split of lap 1.
  
• Some other circumstances that I haven't thought of.
  

Simple.

IMHO everything proposed in this thread is more or less unrealistic. Sorry, but that's what I think...

Any attempt to make a system idiot proof will only challenge god to make a better idiot.

i think it would be good to have a reputation, like xbox live, and if your rep is bad people wont wanna race with u.

also, another thing could be a system like Halo 2s ranking system?!?!

and is firing wrecking?

One suggestion though - could someone code up a programme to ban racers that are not on the server? Example:

racer1: !ban racer2
Racer1 has voted to ban racer2. Type !vote to vote [1/6]
racer3: !vote
Racer3 has voted to ban racer2. Type !vote to vote [2/6]
racer4: !vote
...
Racer2 has been banned

But! racer2 doesn't need to be on the server at the time. This could be a temporary solution (don't complain about having to type !ban blablabla, its better than nothing, and you can bind !vote to an F-key). Its better than what we have now I guess.

EDIT: Further development of the concept. Allow servers to group up and upload the license name of the banned person somewhere online when the user is banned. If a racer is banned on 3 or more participating servers, the racer gets an automatic global ban across all participating servers. Not so easy to abuse, yet effective.

Agreed. Should be private enough to not be flaming people publicly, im favor of an unnofficial community-developed optional thing, still dont think its any thing to do with the lfs devs... If they were providing the servers, fair enough, but they are just supplying the code and master server.

How about a group of us password a couple of servers and hand out the password to people who race clean and fair.

If enough people are asked, then the server would most likely be full.

In the event a wrecker getting into the server, everyone could trust each other to a point that when someone votes to ban, they have done it for a reason.