Quote from Danke :

I say we all take inspiration from Blackbird and hike to the meet, wherever it is.

Ahaha ha ha ha. Umm, or not. At least I will be driving. You should take inspiration in my trip and do something like it but after walking 2200+ miles I think you'd say walking is now gone. (TBH I am guilty of going out for a hike since I finished mine, and I hope that I maintain this healthy habit).

Although as far as what BigTime was saying I thinking it would be loads of fun to attend an endurance race with a bunch of you guys! But I also think, like I said above that some form of event would be a good thing for this meet to start with so that there is more than just a karting day or something; due to cost and distance of traveling.

If properly implemented it would mute would have an effect on server load. Also from my understand, which can be wrong, LFS is P2P based. Sure there is some communication with the server for things like chat messages, race restart etc - but the main physics stuff is done P2P which means the server really isn't loaded that much to begin with; although like I said I could be wrong.

Your point is still valid VoIP would increase bandwidth. Just because of the 1 programming developer doesn't mean that once physics are top notched that this type of feature can't be added, so IMO that is an invalid argument, although I agree this shouldn't be high on the priority list.

Rants/Muting is a controversial topic. Of course you will have the idiots in the game fooling around for no good reason, so mute is necessary - in any VoIP system, so that isn't making this special. That said, a team radio is a realistic thing to have, including between two cars (on the same team). Sure, chit-chat is saved until after the race by almost all drivers; but there does need to draw a line between sim vs game. I am all for 100% realism in the driving department, but considering an online community, race restarts every ~5 minutes on casual servers and a few other limitations I think that chit-chat with others is acceptable and making up for other things. In a league event however I think the option should be able to turn it off completely; or even force administration team to be heard; (with non-broadcasting available so the admins can talk to driver a without interrupting the rest.)

Yea, wall of text - sorry.

Quote from Nathan D. :

No need to post these "disagreeing" opinions.

I think this thread will be more beneficial if the "disagreeing" comments are completely left out. If the ones who dislike the idea don't post, that's one less positive post possibility.

You are pretty much telling people not to post negative / disagreeing opinions.

If the developers put VoIP into LFS they need to recreate it to some degree - even if using codecs and the such.

Quote from Nathan D. :

I highly doubt it would use more CPU/bandwidth than an external app but regardless, do CPU/bandwidth need to be that strictly limited (rhetorical)?

I think this thread will be more beneficial if the "disagreeing" comments are completely left out. If the ones who dislike the idea don't post, that's one less positive post possibility.

How do you think LFS developers putting an additional feature in a _RACING SIMULATOR_ will be more optimal in bandwidth and/or cpu usage than companies that have been developing _VOICE COMMUNICATION_ software for several years, perfecting the amount of data needed to be sent as well as compression? I am not saying the LFS Developers are not capable of doing good VoN in LFS, but to beat software that has been developed specifically for that reason, I'd say unlikely since they are focusing on LFS, the racing simulator.

Where as I am for the idea, see my first post, you achieve nothing if you look at things one sided, regardless of what you believe is a good idea or not. So shoving everyone else out of the thread that disagrees with the idea of having voice-communication in LFS is very pointless. Let them give their perspective, everyone has the ability to share their opinion.

LFS would still need to take up that cpu and bandwidth that teamspeak of ventrilo or similar programs do, so that argument is nullified could even be arguable that the program dedicated to voice communications would be more advanced; using less cpu and bandwidth than something quickly added to the game.

Don't get me wrong, I think its a great idea to have this support built in, but don't pretend it would take less CPU or bandwidth when it _could_ take more.

Okay, I have finished my submission to the project.

I now have a program that can read in a simple script. Whenever a player wants to change the name of their AI without changing 400 file names, just update a small script, and let your computer do the work for you; renaming 400 files in mere seconds!

Hopefully this is enjoyed by many.

Yea he sent me a PM, I am currently downloading the skin pack to see if my idea is useful and possible. I was not able to do it the other day because of some limitations on my internet connection.

His point of mentioning the Indy 500 was because the thought that some people from the community go to the Indy 500, and that it would attract more people to travel to meet with a group where it is a large event, still has to do with racing; Then after the Indy 500 go rent that track for a few hours, if possible, and have a general good time.

I thought you were in New York for college? Hence; New York.

I never said it couldn't be done, but with the greater distances it is more of a challenge and the event has more challenges. It certainly is not impossible, but like the above post it needs to be well organized.

Here's two options which I used in real-life when -learning- to drive a stick. Imaging that, an American that DOES drive a standard, and won't go back to an automatic as long as I can help it.

Technique 1:

Hold brake with right foot.
Press clutch in with left foot.
Select gear, in this case first.
With right foot, while holding brake, press throttle to lift revs - takes practice; is possible.
Release brake on green light, release clutch, control wheel spin with throttle.


Technique 2:

Hold handbrake with hand (requires hand-brake duh)
Press clutch with left foot.
Select gear, again first for this scenario.
Lift the revs by using throttle with, your right foot!
Lights turn green, release handbrake and clutch - controlling wheelspin with throttle.


Technique 3:

Press brake with right foot.
Press clutch with left foot.
Find and Use the clutch 'slip zone' or 'friction zone' which ever you prefer calling it as I've heard it called many things.
Release the brake with right foot.
Hit throttle building revs - carefully monitor the 'friction zone' of the clutch so you don't move.
Lights turn green, release clutch and control wheelspin with throttle.

*Technique 3 may burn you're clutch in LFS - possible real-life as well since I would never use this while lifting revs high for a quick uphill start; though this is the 'proper method' (that I was taught) in daily driving so a clutch should be capable of handling it.

--------------------------

As for removing the Handbrake at the start of a race, I don't have an answer either way. It would need to be tried and if I remember correctly, it was the old way LFS use to behave.

And ESP would have solved that to the point where you wouldn't have even counter-steered for the problem - because it would have been solved before it became a problem.

Must hurt the neck to play unrealistically; looking left 90 degrees all the time . . . [/sarcasm]

Last edited by blackbird04217, Tue 19 Jan 2010, 21:06. Reason : grammar

Quote from Jakg :

Ok, obviously it's impossible to get sideways while under the limit, but I have had snap oversteer at very sedate speeds when I first got my new alloys with the dodgy rear tyres - I was on a fairly large roundabout at about 20 MPH at the time and the car started to get sideways...

You would have broke limit somewhere; dodgy tires, oily road etc. 20mph is pretty fast for a roundabout, at least the ones I know of that is a damn fast speed for that type of corner; regardless of the actual speed limit.

And you can't say the system will be more effective when the bottom line is (possibly) a different issue - as you said; this is out of the control of ESP.

But my only thing is, I do not want to be forced into a situation where the I _must_ have this in my car; same with ABS. I am not saying there won't be times where I wouldn't like to have a car that has these systems so that they keep me safer than I could otherwise, but I don't want that forced upon me; If I want to play around in a vehicle, then I want to be ABLE to play around in a vehicle without having silly systems mess up my entertainment.
So ESP; - Good for typical drivers, in typical situations with the driver paying attention (like they should be anyways).
- Good for the panic mode, when you have the controls telling the car what you want it to do, but not exactly where the controls should be for doing the appropriate action.
- Bad for the driver who still wants to have control of the car, and have fun in reasonable areas; his own 'back-40'.
- Optionally - GREAT. Forcefully - SUCK.

I however do not, nor will not play around in inappropriate places/times. I did not add 'have not' because in high-school I was a dumb-ass, it didn't take me long to break that routine as I broke out of it before I hit age of 20.

I never pretended ESP was any other system, my point still remains, the driver needs to pay attention for a system like ABS or ESP to work in the first place.

I didn't realize the you could get OutSim/OutGauge packets from any car except for a players car, that was my own misunderstanding then.

Quote from Jakg :

Again, i'm sure these devices would be GREAT for my Mum whose only reaction is "BRAAAAAKES"

That is the proper reaction for ABS brakes. Tapping them is NOT the correct option. As for the rest, the brakes lock up on snow, I can hear ABS systems engaging quite often if I just place my foot hard on the brakes in my mom/dads vehicles with ABS.

Remember the point of the systems are "Do what I want, not what I say." Pressing the brakes mean you want to slow the car; at all costs, even if it means using less brakes! The driver just puts their foot down, and the car (with ABS of course) does the rest. I don't know what you mean in snowy conditions, as I've driven in a lot of snowy conditions and that is the only time I've engaged ABS - though I don't tend to reach limits in other conditions for obvious reasons.

Quote from three_jump :

And such kind of system isn't for those people who are clearly stupid enough to do so (in terms of driving over the limit on prupose), but to help those who not judge the situation correctly and need help.

I agree here. Except there are situations; Snow, Rain and other miscellaneous things that can cause someone trying to stay below the limits to exceed the limit. And I am not talking about speed limts; talking about traction for a given situation.

The problem is [I would take a good wild guess and say 60% or more of drivers (including ones outside of the male sex and over the age of 25)] drivers tend to go faster than both speed limits and traction limits. I don't pretend that speed is the only issue in an accident though; paying attention has more to do with it. My sister drove her car 30mph into a pickup without hitting the brakes - because she didn't see it coming; she looked at something on the side of the road, and the truck stopped ahead ... Luckily no-one was hurt, but she wasn't speeding, was well under traction situation and no ABS or ESP system would have prevented that - the driver need to pay attention in the first place.

You see a car flying towards an intersection, you have a green light; do you go? It is partially your fault if that accident takes place considering you saw it happening - regardless of the fact that the other car ran a red light! Legally the car who ran a red light is responsible, but accidents can be avoided in other ways than just the 'legally responsible' person.

@Jakg - Snow and slippery conditions are where systems like ABS come into play. However, I don't like them as I'd rather play with my brake and keep tapping it; sure the ABS system can do this faster and better than I can but it keeps a different type of thinking to keep your foot on the pedal.

All these systems are good for having the car do what you 'want' it to do, but they suck when it comes to the car doing what you 'tell' it to do. Basically the car acknowledges that you want to steer left and brake hard. So ESP will steer left as much as it can under traction - which might not be as much as you wanted- and the ABS will keep the tires from locking up. Thus the car turns left, and brakes at the limits that it can, but if you were 'playing' in a parking lot and tried this hoping for understeer effects you wouldn't exactly get that because the car behaves at the limit rather than allowing you to go over it. And this is why I don't agree with being forced to drive a car that has the systems; options I will agree with - I would like the option for my car to keep me safe from panic mode. But

I would say I've done reasonably well in all panic situations except for 2. The first being my first panic situation that was inevitable, and the second being with my head not focused. The first was my first and only 'off road experience' where I put my car into the ditch from hitting brakes on ice. If only my thought process was one-tenth of a second faster I never would have touched the brake. The second incident I was in a parking lot trying to remember what I needed, and again on snow and ice I hit the brakes, still sliding obviously - towards a stopped car - and hit the brake harder for about a tenth of a second in panic mode, when I snapped myself out and started tapping the brake, and stopped inches before. The had been many other slides in the snow in between those events that never brought on panic mode. (By panic mode I mean a mode where you can not think about the actions you must do properly to avoid the situation that you see coming.) So I do see the use for such devices, but I prefer controlling the car myself.

Quote from morpha :

Edit: I'd also like to see a periodic camera position packet, like OutGauge and OutSim. It'd also be great to get OutGauge and OutSim information for all cars instead of just the one the ingame camera is focused on.

Wouldn't this be possible by requesting the camera packet be sent every X time? I haven't done much camera work with the connection but I remember reading that you can request the camera packet, and that alone can allow you to get periodically. I don't know what periodic camera output would be useful for, periodic camera input certainly useful for sliding cameras and things.

As for OutGauge/OutSim those are locked to the player car for security reasons, retrieving somebodies fuel load settings and stuff like that can possibly be a breach of security. There have been times when I wanted to know fuel loads also, but I believe it is designed this way so that people can not see specific information about their race strategies.

Quote from Luke.S :

Even my dad's kia rio has ESP. How can cars more expensive than a kia not have it?

This isn't the fact that expensive vs inexpensive - its the fact that it is being forced into production; which IMO sucks for me, and others who properly handle the car. It is likely good for the normal 'good' driver who only uses these systems in panic moments, but for the average driver it goes back to the risk thing that tristancliffe talked about. More safety = less risk, less risk = more stupidity.

The problem with doing this is the amount of space between people in the US.

Maine, Kansas, California, Washington, Florida, New York

All states on opposite ends from each other, and all states where I know someone in LFS. It is an extremely long way for people to travel.

Ever heard of multi-class racing?

Class 1: XFG
Class 2: XFR

I agree for the most part what tristancliffe is saying, but where I don't mind car manufactures putting ABS, ESP and other helpful devices, I do despise being forced into that option. My car has no helpful safety devices like ABS, but I know how to apply brakes and release when locked and tap again - including in snowy conditions which I personally think is my favorite time to drive. (Minus the stress and fear that every other idiot on the road is out of control - because that is the way you need to think).

My point here is I do not like ABS. I know it is likely my next car has it, but I don't like that fact; same with being forced into ESP at some point. I doubt that adding safety devices is really helping, and like what was said; some idiot takes said corner at too-high speed, ESP saves them. The idiot now believes faster is okay and takes it at higher speed - where ESP fails and that situation is actually worse than if the car would have went off the road at 100mph vs the 120mph.

I am fine with the option of this in cars, but there will be a day in able 3 to 5 years where I will want a sports car and be able to properly -and legally- play with it, and I don't want all this stupid shit on my toy.