Must hurt the neck to play unrealistically; looking left 90 degrees all the time . . . [/sarcasm]

Last edited by blackbird04217, Tue 19 Jan 2010, 21:06. Reason : grammar

Quote from Jakg :

Ok, obviously it's impossible to get sideways while under the limit, but I have had snap oversteer at very sedate speeds when I first got my new alloys with the dodgy rear tyres - I was on a fairly large roundabout at about 20 MPH at the time and the car started to get sideways...

You would have broke limit somewhere; dodgy tires, oily road etc. 20mph is pretty fast for a roundabout, at least the ones I know of that is a damn fast speed for that type of corner; regardless of the actual speed limit.

And you can't say the system will be more effective when the bottom line is (possibly) a different issue - as you said; this is out of the control of ESP.

But my only thing is, I do not want to be forced into a situation where the I _must_ have this in my car; same with ABS. I am not saying there won't be times where I wouldn't like to have a car that has these systems so that they keep me safer than I could otherwise, but I don't want that forced upon me; If I want to play around in a vehicle, then I want to be ABLE to play around in a vehicle without having silly systems mess up my entertainment.
So ESP; - Good for typical drivers, in typical situations with the driver paying attention (like they should be anyways).
- Good for the panic mode, when you have the controls telling the car what you want it to do, but not exactly where the controls should be for doing the appropriate action.
- Bad for the driver who still wants to have control of the car, and have fun in reasonable areas; his own 'back-40'.
- Optionally - GREAT. Forcefully - SUCK.

I however do not, nor will not play around in inappropriate places/times. I did not add 'have not' because in high-school I was a dumb-ass, it didn't take me long to break that routine as I broke out of it before I hit age of 20.

I never pretended ESP was any other system, my point still remains, the driver needs to pay attention for a system like ABS or ESP to work in the first place.

I didn't realize the you could get OutSim/OutGauge packets from any car except for a players car, that was my own misunderstanding then.

Quote from Jakg :

Again, i'm sure these devices would be GREAT for my Mum whose only reaction is "BRAAAAAKES"

That is the proper reaction for ABS brakes. Tapping them is NOT the correct option. As for the rest, the brakes lock up on snow, I can hear ABS systems engaging quite often if I just place my foot hard on the brakes in my mom/dads vehicles with ABS.

Remember the point of the systems are "Do what I want, not what I say." Pressing the brakes mean you want to slow the car; at all costs, even if it means using less brakes! The driver just puts their foot down, and the car (with ABS of course) does the rest. I don't know what you mean in snowy conditions, as I've driven in a lot of snowy conditions and that is the only time I've engaged ABS - though I don't tend to reach limits in other conditions for obvious reasons.

Quote from three_jump :

And such kind of system isn't for those people who are clearly stupid enough to do so (in terms of driving over the limit on prupose), but to help those who not judge the situation correctly and need help.

I agree here. Except there are situations; Snow, Rain and other miscellaneous things that can cause someone trying to stay below the limits to exceed the limit. And I am not talking about speed limts; talking about traction for a given situation.

The problem is [I would take a good wild guess and say 60% or more of drivers (including ones outside of the male sex and over the age of 25)] drivers tend to go faster than both speed limits and traction limits. I don't pretend that speed is the only issue in an accident though; paying attention has more to do with it. My sister drove her car 30mph into a pickup without hitting the brakes - because she didn't see it coming; she looked at something on the side of the road, and the truck stopped ahead ... Luckily no-one was hurt, but she wasn't speeding, was well under traction situation and no ABS or ESP system would have prevented that - the driver need to pay attention in the first place.

You see a car flying towards an intersection, you have a green light; do you go? It is partially your fault if that accident takes place considering you saw it happening - regardless of the fact that the other car ran a red light! Legally the car who ran a red light is responsible, but accidents can be avoided in other ways than just the 'legally responsible' person.

@Jakg - Snow and slippery conditions are where systems like ABS come into play. However, I don't like them as I'd rather play with my brake and keep tapping it; sure the ABS system can do this faster and better than I can but it keeps a different type of thinking to keep your foot on the pedal.

All these systems are good for having the car do what you 'want' it to do, but they suck when it comes to the car doing what you 'tell' it to do. Basically the car acknowledges that you want to steer left and brake hard. So ESP will steer left as much as it can under traction - which might not be as much as you wanted- and the ABS will keep the tires from locking up. Thus the car turns left, and brakes at the limits that it can, but if you were 'playing' in a parking lot and tried this hoping for understeer effects you wouldn't exactly get that because the car behaves at the limit rather than allowing you to go over it. And this is why I don't agree with being forced to drive a car that has the systems; options I will agree with - I would like the option for my car to keep me safe from panic mode. But

I would say I've done reasonably well in all panic situations except for 2. The first being my first panic situation that was inevitable, and the second being with my head not focused. The first was my first and only 'off road experience' where I put my car into the ditch from hitting brakes on ice. If only my thought process was one-tenth of a second faster I never would have touched the brake. The second incident I was in a parking lot trying to remember what I needed, and again on snow and ice I hit the brakes, still sliding obviously - towards a stopped car - and hit the brake harder for about a tenth of a second in panic mode, when I snapped myself out and started tapping the brake, and stopped inches before. The had been many other slides in the snow in between those events that never brought on panic mode. (By panic mode I mean a mode where you can not think about the actions you must do properly to avoid the situation that you see coming.) So I do see the use for such devices, but I prefer controlling the car myself.

Quote from morpha :

Edit: I'd also like to see a periodic camera position packet, like OutGauge and OutSim. It'd also be great to get OutGauge and OutSim information for all cars instead of just the one the ingame camera is focused on.

Wouldn't this be possible by requesting the camera packet be sent every X time? I haven't done much camera work with the connection but I remember reading that you can request the camera packet, and that alone can allow you to get periodically. I don't know what periodic camera output would be useful for, periodic camera input certainly useful for sliding cameras and things.

As for OutGauge/OutSim those are locked to the player car for security reasons, retrieving somebodies fuel load settings and stuff like that can possibly be a breach of security. There have been times when I wanted to know fuel loads also, but I believe it is designed this way so that people can not see specific information about their race strategies.

Quote from Luke.S :

Even my dad's kia rio has ESP. How can cars more expensive than a kia not have it?

This isn't the fact that expensive vs inexpensive - its the fact that it is being forced into production; which IMO sucks for me, and others who properly handle the car. It is likely good for the normal 'good' driver who only uses these systems in panic moments, but for the average driver it goes back to the risk thing that tristancliffe talked about. More safety = less risk, less risk = more stupidity.

The problem with doing this is the amount of space between people in the US.

Maine, Kansas, California, Washington, Florida, New York

All states on opposite ends from each other, and all states where I know someone in LFS. It is an extremely long way for people to travel.

Ever heard of multi-class racing?

Class 1: XFG
Class 2: XFR

I agree for the most part what tristancliffe is saying, but where I don't mind car manufactures putting ABS, ESP and other helpful devices, I do despise being forced into that option. My car has no helpful safety devices like ABS, but I know how to apply brakes and release when locked and tap again - including in snowy conditions which I personally think is my favorite time to drive. (Minus the stress and fear that every other idiot on the road is out of control - because that is the way you need to think).

My point here is I do not like ABS. I know it is likely my next car has it, but I don't like that fact; same with being forced into ESP at some point. I doubt that adding safety devices is really helping, and like what was said; some idiot takes said corner at too-high speed, ESP saves them. The idiot now believes faster is okay and takes it at higher speed - where ESP fails and that situation is actually worse than if the car would have went off the road at 100mph vs the 120mph.

I am fine with the option of this in cars, but there will be a day in able 3 to 5 years where I will want a sports car and be able to properly -and legally- play with it, and I don't want all this stupid shit on my toy.

Then it sounds like they are using their power to keep things clean?

Quote from Shadowww :

Well if server allows both XFG and XFR who would drive XFG?

Same with HTTP and BitTorrent downloads.

The people who enjoy the XFG more than the XFR.
Same with the people who don't have or want to get a BitTorrent downloaded and simply want to click download.

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Either way you missed the point that danthebangerboy was saying. If it was the torrent link broken would you say the same thing? What if any car was broken except the UF1? would "Race the UF1 then." be your response?

To OP -> nice catch on the mirror that wasn't updated.

My current project just made one complete run across a network, sure it crashed, but the fact that I was able to play with a friend halfway across the world was quite amazing!

Is that the bit that is cutoff from the game that would have the very nice, high speed elevation change? I would love to drive that part (FE3 near the end going straight for the finish-line vs around all the curves). It would be great because the car would get extremely light.

I wasn't saying to do it outside the realm of a competition. I am suggesting if you find a 24hr event that allows you to race give me aheads up, I'd like to try it on the same as you. Yea two cars driving around the track for 24hrs, now that would be boring!

Quote from Memph1s :

I think the devs should sell LFS to a publisher, e.g. Simbin, which is motivated enough to develop that huge potential that LFS has.

Quote from Timo1992 :

+1

i agree with steffen here, would be great to have a 24 MoE race at the nordschleife in LFS

- I would have to disagree about the publisher act. Publishers will push the project in a direction that a LOT of the current community would not like; casualized to death and a fully different style gameplay. IMO it would be a terrible idea for LFS to be directed by anyone other than who it is now. Publishers care about money, not project integrity or direction. They feed the public 'what the public wants', and to be honest, the majority of the public doesn't want a racing simulator, they want racing games where they can go around a corner at 180mph - (arguably this point can go on because the publisher -constantly- casualize their games to death so that the current generation of gamers don't know or care what skill or learning is in a game.)

Quote from Glenn67 :

I've driven for 36 hours with one break of two hours in real life, but certainly not on a race track at ten tenths and it isn't something I'd recommend or would do again .
Even a one and a half hour stint I find myself prone to mistakes around the 1 hour mark.
The most difficult stage in real life is about 12 hours in, after that it seems to get easier again. Would be interesting to see if something similar happens in race conditions

I've done 28 to 32 hours a handful of times in my life. Only stops (typically) were fueling up and quick bathroom brakes. Of course, as you pointed out - much different than racing at speed. Also I agree with your statement it starts getting easier again, but it also tends to wear down quicker after 24hrs pass. From my experience. Whenever I did the trip with a passenger I would try having them sleep in the middle of the ride somewhere, so they will be awake and chatty during the final leg.

If I was in a real-life car that solution might seem acceptable to me, whereas I am not, that solution is left unacceptable, to me. Is the thread going to get back on the original topic? Dawesdust and I derailed it for a fair number of posts

Nice, we oughta get together and try getting into the same 24hr race so that we have some 'even' competition. There is no point in competing against the teams of drivers. But to see the effects of fatigue, and challenge myself to overcome it is the primary goal and reason behind my desire to do this. Contact me ahead of time in 2010 when you have plans to, I'll see if my connection is handling multiplayer and if I have the time to do it. Although, I won't do it in a GTR class; LX6 would be the best for my tastes.

Ha, I still wanna do a 24hr event myself. I have done 6hrs alone with quite well results. Started a 12hr but got frustrated when the higher classed racers were not passing fairly and just rammed me off the track. I will give this another try and practice for that 24hr.

Even in the 6hr event you start to feel fatigue coming in, not only mentally; physically your back starts aching from holding posture for racing so long. I can only imagine what holding your piss for 24hrs would do though, I suppose a bottle next to you would have to work and likely some in-house support would be useful; for a quick snack/drink. I was planning on having a nearby cooler and only drinking/eating/pissing during pitstops making a few pitstops run a little longer - but when the challenge is racing for 24hrs I wouldn't care about my position.

Problem is a lot of the events force a particular number of racers. Even in the DoP 12hr race they forced racers but since I had done the 6hr race alone and approached them directly they were able to let me race alone, I wonder if 2010 is my year.

Slightly off the topic of the thread, but I couldn't resist.

2009 for LFS. Well, I left for over half of the year, and haven't been able to play Multiplayer for some reason or another for the other half. Which is unfortunate.

Head-to-Head Series proved busier than ever at the start of 2009, providing some of the closest action ever. Also added was the Head-to-Head Allstar Cup, which was a huge hit. Unfortunately a bad date was chosen, but overall the live broadcast and event went extremely well.

-------

After a long break away from the community I came back and was stunned at how the community has degraded. So many people complaining about development speed when really they miss the entire point; the game is still be developed in the first place. Considering that development is going on, and huge developments at that; fixing some issues with tire physics, adding a laser scanned real-life track, etc... I think 2009 proved to be a busy and stressful year for the developers who are no doubt putting their heart into the project.

I didn't get to do a few things in LFS I wanted to this year, because of my "silly" (A censored word...) internet connection. But 2010 will give me that chance.

Well, that should be quite obvious wouldn't it? Don't use spectators, shadows or moving objects as your reference point? I mean somethings you can't avoid; but you change you plan dynamically. It is best to have more than 1 reference point for each action as well. That way when your 'good' rp is hiding from view, (car between you and it), or moved you can detect this based on other reference points and still make the corner safely, even if not your ultimatum speed.

As I said, there would likely be one clickable button with several other 'line' "buttons" to make it work. It would look like there are multiple pieces of text in the button; but those 'text' objects are not clickable, instead there is a clickable button behind it.

I don't know another way to word it. In simple; no there is no such thing as a multiline button, but there is way to achieve the effect using 3+ buttons.