Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Mr


That's a ****ing insult to this country.
Edit : got rid of names

I strongly suggest you delete this post. Even with the names and part of the post code removed, there is still probably enough information for an individual to be identified by a local person from that area. This forum is a public place remember and should anyone be victimised in one of those streets they could have a fair chance at taking both yourself and the owners of this board to court over it.

Even if they wouldn't have a case I would still delete it just to be safe.

Quote from The Moose :

ROFL. Some of the comments from members on a few blog sites are most amusing. They are getting their panties in a right twist. Good.
If your going to be a racist piece of scum then at least have the balls to stand up and admit it instead of shouting your hateful propaganda from behind some wall of anonymity.

This is one data leak i wholeheartedly agree with

Much as I agree with your sentiment I don't agree with the leak being a good thing.

Specifically because:

a) It's a legal political party. In this country we have freedom of political association and despite what peoples views may be on the parties ideology, there should always be one law for all in that if members of other parties are allowed to keep their political views private then so should this parties members.

b) Are all BNP party members racist? I would suggest that they aren't. Why? well because the BNP has quite radically altered it's public image over the last couple of decades and especially with the recent issues of the terrorist bombings and huge increases in immigration in to this country, (no I'm not implying the two things are linked), there is a genuine and sincerely felt belief amongst a lot of people in this country that our borders are too open. In fact until very recently it was a fact that it was far easier to gain entry to this country than any other european state, let alone other western states such as the USA or Australia. For this reason there are probably a considerable amount of people on that list that just genuinely don't know about the BNPs violent past, (they're too young), and just see the party as offering a political solution to what they see as a political problem.

To anyone that says, "you've got to be stupid to not know what the BNP really stand for" I'll say two things:

1). Probably 90% of this countries population don't truely understand the political ideology of even the main parties let alone the fringe parties such as the BNP.

2) I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's no law against being stupid and it's not the individuals fault if they are ignorant. Especially if they are ignorant of their ignorance. It's the job of those that aren't ignorant to teach them the errors of their beliefs.

Lastly, and I wan't to make it clear that this last point is a point of law, not my personal opinion, (which may or may not agree with it :razz.

We live in a Democracy. Being racist is not illegal. If the majority of the population should choose to hold Xenophobic/Racist views that is their perogative and should they decide to vote a Xenophobic/Racist political party in to government that is also their perogatives. That is the meaning of Democracy !!!

We should never make the mistake of equating being Racist/Xenophobic with agreeing with being violent against other races/foreigners. There is a world of difference between the two. In much the same way as we should never equate being muslim with agreeing with blowing up innocent people.
Before anyone says the two things are different, they are not. They are exactly the same issue of extremity of belief.

Weird tyre squeeling sound.. Don't like that at all.

Other than that I guess the only way to know is to drive it. Can't say anything stands out particularly in a visual sense.

I don't believe too much emphasis should be put on winning. For example IMO a driver that finishes 2nd or 3rd in every race is a better driver than the guy that wins 4 times and places 5th every other race. So IMO there needs to be a way in which consistantly high performing drivers have a chance of winning the WDC.

Quote from Zen321 :

How do you know they were paid really well?
It is an assumption : a big brand of car makers goes to see a small team of the best simulation, asking for their car to be in the game.

Well that's one way it could have happened. The other being the complete opposite of course. ie The devs realised they needed a "current" car in the game to attract new users and so they went to VW to beg them to allow them to use the car. A bit of a pitch later about how it would bring them kudos etc and a bit of payment from LFS to VW and the devs get the go ahead.

I think the second scenario is far more likely, with maybe the bit about money being paid not happening if the devs managed a really good sales pitch for LFS.

The reason I believe it was that way round?

a) I think it's highly unlikely that any top exec in VW would have ever heard of LFS, (it's a million to 1 shot that someone that high up in a global company is going to be spending their time on line playing a driving sim).

b) Even in the highly unlikely event that anyone in VW had even heard of LFS there isn't a chance in hell they would be interested in going out of their way to approach them to put their car in the game. What do they gain? there simply is absolutely zero marketing to be gained from it.

c) In the extremely unlikely event that someone in VW had thought it was a good idea to have one of their cars in LFS, hell would have to freeze over before they would pay the devs for such a "privilege". Much more likely in that exceptionally unlikely scenario is that the devs jumped at the chance and were falling over themselves to do it for free.

Remember, it would take a relatively senior person in VW to make a decision to allow a car of theirs to be licenced to end up in a game. We're talking a global corp here, not some niche car manufacturer looking for any avenue they can to promote their "garden shed" product. Global corps are extremely sensitive to product placement and positioning. A mistake in this respect can cost millions.

Quote from tristancliffe :

... on the same track at the same time. .

I have actually been on the same track, at the same time as the great John Reynolds and I can testify to his amazing speed and talent.....

He was on his race prepped superbike and I was only on a lowly road legal 600 sports bike but hey

Can it be used to simulate a motorcycle? more or less i mean.

Go with the MotoGP points IMO. Allows for more emphasis on winning and placing high but also gives an incentive to gain the extra place most of the way down the grid. With points/medals only awarded to the top 3-5 placers all the rest wouldn't bother racing each other

MotoGP Points

1st: 25 points
2nd: 20 points
3rd: 16 points
4th: 13 points
5th: 11 points
6th: 10 points
7th: 9 points
8th: 8 points
9th: 7 points
10th: 6 points
11th: 5 points
12th: 4 points
13th: 3 points
14th: 2 points
15th: 1 point

Interestingly 2008 WDC would have ended up like this with the MotoGP scoring (change compared to actual placing):

Hamilton: 268 (+0)
Massa : 258 (+0)
Kubica : 217 (+1)
Kimmi : 216 (-1)
Heidfeld : 197 (+1)
Alonso : 188 (-1)
Heikki : 171 (+0)
Trulli : 124 (+1)
Vettel : 118 (-1)

No change in the overall winner but some interesting swaps further down the list.

Quote from amp88 :

The biggest difference in terms of looks would probably be closed wheels (the rules require open wheels at the moment but all teams would almost certainly go for an aerodynamic covering of some sort). Where possible the wings would be computer controlled to provide maximum downforce in corners and minimum drag on straights. For engines they'd have to be going for forced induction and possibly rotary (?) for the highest possible power to weight ratio. Number of tyres is more difficult...that would probably depend on how much grip they could get from the tyres and what the ultimate performance of the car was. Transmission would probably be CVT, possibly powering all of the wheels. Braking systems with multiple discs per wheel for maximum stopping power. The truly limiting factor would be keeping the driver alive/conscious/alert for the full race distance.

Agree with all that plus almost certainly some form of active suspension and use of ground effect.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Give Hamilton a Ferrari and I'm sure he'd have won the championship just as well. Obviously, the McLaren has helped him no end, but, no matter what anyone says, you still need the skills to drive the car. .

Well obviously you still need skill to drive the car. But let me remind you Lewis won the WDC by 1 point. The driver he beat was only in his 3rd season in a car that gave him the oportunity to do so, (and arguably he was never going to be let win in the first of those as he was Schumachers team mate ). So personally I don't see a huge difference between them.

The point being who else on the grid could win a WDC in their first or second season in a car that is actually competitive? I think you'll find there are a few drivers out there that could equal or better Lewis's acheivement.

Also, it can hardly be fairly claimed that he is an F1 rookie when he has the equivilent of around 3 seasons worth of mileage in an F1 car as a test driver behind him.

People keep glossing over the point that he went straight in to a competitive car and some how seem to think this makes him spectacularly talented. It doesn't, it makes him spectacularly lucky. IF he hadn't had such luck and had been picked up by one of the lower teams for his first season and then after maybe 2 or 3 seasons moved up to a competitive car and took a couple of seasons in it to get his WDC would we be having this conversation? Would he be being compared with Senna? No, on both counts. So lets drop the "Lewis is an F1 god" bit and compare him with what his peers could have acheived given the same opportunity as him, and then we'd see that he isn't all that spectacular at all. Certainly one of the better drivers sure, but an F1 God he's not. Not yet anyway.

A comparison:

Lewis WDC in his second season in a competive car.
Villenueve WDC in his second season in a competitive car.
Alonso WDC in his third season in a competitive car.
Schumacher WDC in his third season in a competitive car (arguably the first season the benneton was actually competitive).
Senna WDC in his first season in a competitive car.
Hill WDC in his third season in a competitive car.
Lauda WDC in his second season in a competitive car.

I use the term competitive in a loose way as clearly some of their cars were more competitive than others.

Quote from ATHome :

The more I see that picture the more it grows on me. Kind of looks like a Scorpion.

Nice, I've always liked Brundles style.

Quote from 510N3D :

If people dont read or understand whats been said by the devs themselve about this matter then so be it.

Well, reading and understanding things that people say is completely different to agreeing with what they say. The devs can say what they like, they can run their development as they see fit, that's their perogative. But other people don't have to agree with any of it, that's their perogative too. If the devs don't want to take on board "advice" given freely on a forum, (some of it by people that probably have a lot more commercial experience than they do), then that's their perogative as well. It's not my business and none of it matters a jot to me, I'm just expressing an opinion as an opinion was asked for.

Like you, I'll continue to play LFS until either

a) I get bored or something else takes my intention instead

or

b) It dies a death and I can't find any online servers to play it any more.

Hmmm interesting.

I get lock ups on occasion too. It also only seems to happen when playing LFS. I also have an Nvidia 8600GT card.

What OS are you running? wouldn't be Vista would it?

I've no idea if it's just a conicidence, and I've no idea why it happens. I've looked through all of the event logs and all I can ever find is a generic "window recovered from an unexpected shutdown" which doesn't lead to any info on the MS support site either.

Quote from 510N3D :

Ok here are just a few questions i’d like to ask into the “complainers” direction.

• When did you joined LFS? (demo, forum, licenced right away, it doesnt matter)
  

• Have you ever considered and even understood the facts that are basically responsible for the rather slow progress lately? (http://insidesimracing.blip.tv ... iganOfLFSInterview436.flv
  

• When exactly did you got bored and perhaps, why in particulary?
  

[Examples]

• Do you think that your motivation went away because you've used the game quite excessively or maybe even for the exact opposite reason?
  

• Or do you think that it never really was your thing after all, no matter what kind of variation you’ve tried?
  

• Was perhaps the lack or even the superior number of good competition the reason?
  

• Have you tried a lot of variations the game offers or where you basically just doing one thing? (hotlapping, curcuit track/ rally racing, oval racing, cruising, drifting or drag racing et cetera (in no particular order )
  

[/Examples]

• Do you think that any significantly changes will bring you back to LFS or even bring back the joy from how it was at the beginning?
  

• In addition to the previous one, do you think that it could be possible or must a requirement to reach a certain stage with LFS once again so that you can enjoy it just like in the beginning?
  

• Do you have still faith in the project and ScaViEr, or do you just follow and believe into yours and/ or others assumptions?
  

• Are these question of any help in any way, perhaps to bring more transparency into your personal situation and maybe even this particual problem?
  

All perfectly valid points. However the real issue as I see it is that nothing exists in a vacuum. LFS is a product and it will always be compared with other products, those of the same type, (ie racing sims), and those that compete to attract you away from that type, (pretty much any game). So irrespective of how good the fundamentals are it just can't afford to stand still development wise, as you can rest assured that the competition won't be standing still.

I come back to my point about the graphics. Just how many of you ever play 2D games? I grew up in the DOS games era and there were a few games I used to just love, but no matter how involving their gameplay was I just couldn't bear to play them now as they are just so dated in comparison with "modern" 3D games. Eventually there will come a point where no matter how realistic the physics engine in LFS is, the immersion will be lost because the visual interface will look so unrealistic in comparison with other products, eg imagine VR games become the norm, will you still think a 2D screen representation of a 3D world will seem "realistic" to anyone then?

Just to clarify, I'm using graphics as an example. The point is valid for any aspect of the games development, content, physics engine etc

Quote from tristancliffe :

Did you set the gearing to a realistic level, and is the engine torque comparible?

Stop talking sense !

Quote from SamH :

The other view is that right now, Britain could do with a bit of something positive to focus on. We don't have a good economy and all the food prices are going up, none of us can afford our mortgages all of a sudden and we're worry about losing our jobs. Some predictions have us topping 3 million unemployed before we see an up-turn. We're turning into a nanny state and we feel like we're suffocating thanks to a left-wing big brother government that would like nothing but to brand us with some indelible mark for easy identification, like cattle. Hamilton represents something that is GOOD about Britain. It may just be a veneer but that's not what's important. With Hamilton comes the implication that Brits are good for something. It is a powerful and valuable illusion, especially at a time like this.

20 years ago, it was inconceivable that a black guy could achieve a position at the pinnacle of motorsports. My generation grew up learning and/or knowing that racism was a bad thing, but forced to grow up with it anyway. We were an intermediary generation.. aware of bad things and tasked with changing them. Hamilton represents an aspect of that struggle for freedom from an archaic, ignorant and paranoia-exploiting political undercurrent - the same national socialist movement that Germany suffered from in the 30s was a genuine and tangible threat to Britain from the mid 60s to the late 70s. Hamilton in many ways represents victory over that racist mentality and, to those of us who remember those times, he represents an aspect of progression for British society. It's something that I imagine would be difficult for a young person to perceive today (and it's why I didn't bore you with it initially), but to me it's very poignant. Not Hamilton as an individual per sey, but an ideal and a measure of how far we've come so far, collectively, as a nation.

Perhaps it would only make sense to someone else about my age who was as politically active as I was in their youth and who REMEMBERS how things were, I dunno.

Sorry to pull up an old thread, but I just read this post and wanted to say I hear ya !!

Quote from NightShift :

If we're going to play XF vs XR, the latter lacks the snappy feeling. Not only the XF is more straightforward to drive, but faster through the corners and the high revving engine sounds and feels more sporty than the XR.

Don't get me wrong, I like the XR but it felt like a boat rather then a car for quite some time... I've started to develop a relationship with the thing just recently

Pretty much sums up my feelings for the two cars, except the "I like the XR" bit. I hate it, and for exactly the reason you stated. It just wallows all over the place, understeers in to a corner and then wants to swing its rear around no matter what kind of throttle you have mid corner. I once made a joke about having to use a jib and tiller to drive the thing and nothing has changed my mind about it since.

Quote from anttt69 :

I can see lots of those new front wings being broken off in T1 incidents, in fact it will be almost impossible to overtake without clipping the other car with your over sized front wing.

Yeah especialy if your initials are LH

I'd love to see AC Cobra or maybe TVR Tuscan racing series in LFS

Quote from Rotareneg :

Wow, that sentence ends in a great piece of fail... someone needs to point him to the Ideal gas law.

Actually it's not entirely incorrect. Whilst it's not the moisture per se that is causing the pressure increase the humidity of the air does have an affect on how much the pressure increases due to a temperature increase in the air.

It comes down to the value of R in the equation you link to.
There are two forms of Gas constant, Universal (Ru) and Specific (Rs), and they have the following relationship:

Rs = Ru / M

Where M is is the molecular weight of the gas in question.

If you look up the values of R for water vapour (Rw) and dry air (Ra) you get

Rw = 461.5
Ra = 287

Now obviously air isn't pure water vapour, but then neither is it ever dry (as per the definition ie containing no water vapour at all), so real air is always somewhere in between. The actual value will depend on the Relative Humidity (RH) of the air in question. So although in practice it's only a small variation the RH of air will affect the pressure of the air at a given temperature.

Quote :

Also, rubber does not behave like metals and other more "normal" solids in regards to heat and compression:

http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/HOMEEXPTS/rubberband.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber#Elasticity

Not quite sure of your point here. It's patently clear that the tread pattern on a tyre has a direct affect on the temperature generation within the tyre. This has been proven by emprical data taken by tyre manufacturers and they put a lot of research and effort in to the design of tread block size/pattern because of it. Whether this is due to the intrinsic properties of the rubber itself or some other mechanism is moot to the point the author in the quote is making. It's a well understood fact that the more the tread blocks move around they quicker they heat up, which is what the quoted was stating.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

They did a thing on 5th Gear a while ago, I think it was mid 2006. They had a drag race between a Honda F1 car, a Fireblade BSB or WSB spec (Around 210bhp iirc) and a Honda Powerboat. The F1 car had much better grip and therefore blitzed the bike in a drag race.

I saw that too. I always thought that it wasn't quite a fair comparison. The F1 car had traction control the fireblade obviously didn't. Would have been a much fairer comparison to compare the Honda F1 car with the motorcycle F1 equivilent ie Honda MotoGP bike, (which has traction control in the lower gears). I think the result would have been closer if they had.

However, not a lot that could be done with the bikes ultimate problem though, that of it lifting the front wheel under acceleration. But then to counter that the F1 car wouldn't be able to put down all that power either without all the aero keeping it stuck to the ground. So those kinds of comparisons aren't really ever truely like with like.

Also reminds me of a Top Gear comparison they did between a Fireblade and a Honda Civic Type-R. They went to a lot of trouble to give the impression that they were doing a fair test, (by getting nial mackenzie no less to ride the bike IIRC), but in the end it was clearly BS. There is no way on earth that a 200bhp production road car is ever going to beat a 170bhp production sports motorcycle around a track. The bike just doesn't give away enough cornering speed to the car for the car to ever be able to make up for complete lack of comparative straight line speed.

Last edited by gezmoor, Mon 17 Nov 2008, 21:10.

Quote from PLAYLIFE :

And then of course there is he issue of the driver that is added to the bike so in more realistic terms its:

Honda Honda RC211V (2005) - 240Bhp+ @ 148+70 Kg - 1100 Bhp/Tonne

Ah yes of course. But then of course you only have about a tenth of the contact patch of an F1 car.

Oh and I forgot to add - most MotoGP riders are closer to 60Kg (if that).

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

It would be a pointless competition now anyway, Rossi would just destroy everyone.

True. The man (just) is a phenomenom. A truely unparalleled career in any motorsport AFAIK.

Quote from robt :

He might be a racing motorbike novice, but hes had actual bikese for years. remember reading an article from back in 1994 where he alrady had a small collection of ducati's.

Maybe this will put it in to perspective:

Road Bike:
Ducati 998 SPS (1998) - 123 BHP @ 190 Kg - 647Bhp/Tonne
Ducati 999R (2005) - 150 Bhp @ 181Kg - 829 Bhp/Tonne

MotoGP
Ducati Desmosedici GP5 (2005) - 230 BHP+ @ 148Kg - 1554 Bhp/Tonne
Honda Honda RC211V (2005) - 240Bhp+ @ 148Kg - 1621 Bhp/Tonne


Thats over twice the power to weight ratio. MotoGP bikes are so powerful these days that they have to be power restricted in the lower gears in order to be even remotely ridable.

For comparison:

McLaren F1 (Road Car) - 627 Bhp @ 1,140 Kg - 550 Bhp/Tonne