If driving race cars like bumper cars = good racing, then mediocrity = good racing.

Otherwise, there's no substitute for high levels of competence.

Quote from spankmeyer :

43 laps to go and your multi-million dollar cardboard engine is spitting bolts, smoke and oil around for the nth time this season and there's nothing you can do about it - you think you wouldn't be pissed off?

It's called professionalism and logic. A damaged engines yields much more information than a completely destroyed one. This allows the engine guys to analyze the failure and possibly prevent the same problem from repeating itself.

There are impulsive kids who simply give in to their impulses. Then there are true professionals and champions that stay calm under pressure. It's what separates the champions from the rest of the field.

And yes, F-1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsports, so the harder the top guys compete, the better. When was the last time mediocre drivers and mediocre competition actually led to excellent racing?

BTW, Kimi has the skill and speed, and could potentially become the next Mika Hakinen if he gains more experience and tries to work with the Ferrari team as well as MS did.

Last edited by Jamexing, Mon 23 Oct 2006, 10:26.

The only reason one would functionaly use matte paint on a car is to reduce or eliminate reflections, such as for stealth. That's why military vehicles are painted the way they are.

I would never had bought the license if I didn't test the demos for months before even considering. As it is, the demo is just fine. And if I didn't like the demo (aka it was CRAP), I wouldn't have bothered.

Here comes another silly way to increase short term sales by force.

As I've already said, the real problem is that LFS still has NO simulation of tire rub on solid fenders. Another problem is that cars in LFS can be lowered to VERY absurd levels. Truth is, the car models and many other things about the cars in LFS is still far from complete.

As for lowered cars, lowering does not force the need for lower steering lock, as long as you don't go LOWER than the suspension's original travel range and don't use excessively large tires. As long as you don't do anything silly like cutting off the bumpstops. It's about time LFS starts simulating bumpstops, but again I risk getting shot down for proposing anything too realism biased.

With the current lack of sensible limits to lowering and suspension coupled with less than properly behaving fenders, I simply see no harm in using anything no more than 45 degrees sice the tires already stick out conspicuously at 36 degrees of lock. And the way things are, losing more of lock won't solve anything.

There goes another mature team player. The current young guns are just too self centered to help maintain a well functioning team. Remember how Micheal Schumacher worked tirelessly for so many years to get Ferrari back to winning form. Hope Kimi won't waste it all.

As fast as he is, he's not known to be terribly mature. Remember those occasions when he knew the engine was about to blow? He simply floored the throttle to maximise the bang! Exactly what the race engineers DON'T need. With such abusive behavior, it's no surprise Mclaren consistancy remains as bad as it is.

Like it or not, Micheal Schumacher will be missed by many. The unfortunate fact is that we might never see drivers with his special talents again. Let's hope that by some miracle the next Aryton Senna/Alain Prost/Micheal Schumacher shows up and sets another benchmark.

Quote from Matrixi :

I do see your point, but the thing is drifting would only be easier in the entry level. Hard part would be using all 45 degrees of steering as much as possible, going at über big angles with your car.

And as said before, there are real life cars with 45 degrees of lock. Why shouldn't we have the same with our simulator? Just imagine going sideways in a G25 at 900 degrees with 45 degrees of lock in XRT.. that sure as hell would keep me entertained.

Simulator being the operative word.

Well, to keep things realistic as LFS supposedly should, it's best to let the steering lock be dictated by whatever RL car the LFS car is based on. For instance, the XR GTT's maximum lock should be determined via the original specifications of the Mitsubishi Starion and so on.

However, IRL, the real limitation on steering lock is the design of the steering system and the clearance the fenders have. In that regard, RL cars tend to be set to maximum safe possible lock in OEM trim, usually with a finite amount of extra lock left for redundancy/safety and ensure a margin of clearance. No point making a car a pig to park and manouver when more lock wn't cause clearance issues ove the suspensions range of travel.

However, as some of us already know to well, it's quite possible to safely get some extra lock out of the system if the fender clearance is still there. I'm not a drifter myself, but I simply can't see what harm 45 degrees of lock would do ATM. If LFS actually physically models the fenders and inadequate fender clearance causes tire rub, then we'll use the maximum safe possible lock as the maximum possible lock setting. As far as I'm concerned, the steering ratio is even more vital if a car has decent lock in the first place, but that setting isn't quite available yet in LFS, even for the race cars.

The ultimate solution to all this is to simply set maximum lock to whatever RL car is based on whilst adding real cars with drifter friendly steering lock such as the fabled S13s. This keeps every reasonable LFS racer/drifter happy.

Well, drifting is a real motorsport these days, so to neglect it now is just silly. As for the hardcore no drift circuit racers, don't worry, figure skating and speed skating have co-existed for a long time and so far both sports are doing well in their own ways.

Quote from TagForce :

Off topic but, you were told to shut up by one person, and not because you disagreed... Because you were just repeating the same thing over and over again, all the time ignoring the fact that we were discussing an option for servers, not something that would make the game unplayable for anybody.
And since when did anybody start to actually listen to Tristan anywayz?

Actually, I was trying to say that LFS isn't quite ready to support such a mode since the control interface (aka clutch behavior). Just that we have more important things to think about in LFS ATM. What really bugs me is that such options are easily abusable and doesn't really do LFS any good ATM.

Anyway, back on topic. Some RL OEM cars do have pretty extreme steering lock, though they're not the majority. I can't remember the exact specs, but Volvo 240s have amazing steering angles too. Makes it much easier to manouver in traffic than its size suggests.

Quote from Matrixi :

Sigh. Yet people fail to see why we are asking for more steering lock. No one has said that there would be an absolute need for more, because there isn't. When people ask for more steering lock, it is just to make the current drifting even more extreme, more show oriented. Not to mention, even make the game interesting again for a little while to some of us.

I really can't see any reason what-so-ever why we couldn't be allowed to have more lock. If you think you are fine now with the currently allowed steering angles and you don't think you would profit for additional lock then don't bloody set it to more than 36 degrees! No one is forcing you to use the additional lock that some drifters are asking, no one. If you want more challenge at drifting, then be my guest and go ahead, stick with the 36 degrees but don't go saying that 45 degrees of lock has no use. This is one of the small things I have personally wanted LFS to have for long time now, and knowing that it is nothing more but a few clicks and couple keystrokes in the source code, it infuriates me.

The claim that more than 36 degrees of lock would be unrealistic with our car lineup isn't really a valid excuse either. As many people above me have said, what kind of a stock car has the amount of setting adjustments that we have now? I doubt you people seriously believe that having more than 36 degrees of lock would be impossible in real world, but I'll just post couple pics and links for those who would doubt it is. 1 2

And let me just quote the latter: "The S13 will have between 40° and 45° of steering angle. The FC3S will only have 35° to 40° of steering angle. The Nissan has at least 5° of extra steering angle to use. Luckily, we can add that 5° of extra steering angle by shimming tie rods off the steering rack on the FC3S with spacers. The other, more time-consuming method to get more steering angle on an FC3S is to relocate the tie rod to hub connection point. This increases steering angle and steering response, as it changes the steering ratio significantly. We're getting up to 50° and more steering angle with this mod!"

And so comes the conclusion. What is true the reason we aren't allowed to have realistic (+45) steering angles? Yes, your "realistic" 36 degrees is in fact unrealistic if you consider that we can have more lock in real life with very little mods. You don't want more steering lock to spoil your challenge? Then don't use it. Also seeing that racers are saying "-1" for this suggestion is pretty hillarious. This is something that wouldn't affect them in any way and yet, because they obviously despise us who enjoy drifting in our beloved sim, they must disagree with us.

I had a serious deja vu while writing this. Not too long ago we had a similar discussion in the "mountain tracks/touge" suggestion thread, and it got shot down with exactly the same false excuses and arguments I see posted here. Ah crap, why did I even waste my time writing this post.

Glad there's someone here who speaks so clearly and bluntly. Reminds me of that silly thread where I was told to shut up just because I disagree with something and actually bothering to care about the fact that the majority of LFS players do not have clurtch pedals. illepall I wonder if the concept of a paying customer still means anything these days.

And yes, to hell with silly pseudo real arguments from barring suggestions that'll make LFS BETTER for all paying licensees.

Quote from StanleyCarter :

The 36 degree feels just fine.

It actually made a lot of us better drifters than before.

Angle? I am capable of pushing my XRT to the very limit, speed wise, angle wise, and all the while maintaining a smooth line.

Some of you just need to open your eyes more, real drifts? heh, in fact we're doing stuff more amazing than real life, how can you compare? LFS is still just a simulation/game, imitating the drifts like real life is easy, simply because we're not afraid of crashing. You don't see 'real drifts' in LFS, but you can see a whole lot better drifts than you could in real life.

Trust me, the 36 degree is just fine for us/you drifters out there, you just need more practise and some setup tweaking.

Good points. The lack of excess steering angle force one to master weight shifting, a skill essential both to drifters AND serious racers (especially in off-road and rally races).

Quote from Forbin :

Most high end sportbikes these days (i.e. a $9000 600cc 4-cylinder) have fully adjustable dampers with fast and slow for both bound and rebound. Perhaps they cost a lot more on a car because of the much greater forces involved?

True about the forces part. The adjustable car dampers are massive compared to their 2-wheeled counterparts. For instance, Ohlins race dampers for Lancer Evolutions are monotubes with 46mm or so bores.

As for the 10,000AUD or so per unit I'm talking about, they are full blown, extremly precise and consistant race dampers for top level motorsports such as WRC or Formula 1. They are extremly precise especially at low damper speeds regions and displacements, providing a powerful and invaluable tool for controlling transient behavior. Dampers like Koni 2822 4-way adjustables.

And Woz, good point. The current suspension model does a good job for double wishbones and Mcpherson struts, but are still omits some obvious and important things. For instance, there's still no multilink suspension and dynamic toe. The lack of live axles is also an obvious ommision, though they are relatively more complicated in behavior, so that's something that could wait until other important issues such as aero modelling are done.

Anyway, I'm happy with all the constructive posts in this thread so far. Keep them rolling in.

Quote from xaotik :

Being able to adjust fast/slow rebound damping separately with the current type of dampers would probably end up with the same result, no?

That would make your average 4-way damper that could cost as much as 10,000AUD each. That's ideal for the pure race cars in LFS (GTRs, BF1s, Rallycars (hope they'll get around to adding a rally car soon)).

Unfortunately, 10,000AUD is a bit OTT for the road cars such as XF/XR, RA/FZ50 and TBOs. So to keep it a bit more real, lets keep the existing linear 2-ways but with a blowoff point and high speed valving that results in stiffness a predetermined fraction of the low speed regime. This would better simulate how RL 2-way dampers behave.

Then they're progressive dampers. These are the most primitive and cheapest dampers you usually get as your OEM cheapies. They are horribly soft at low speeds when maximum control is needed but stiff a speeds when compliance would improve comfort and most importantly mechanical grip. Thus the lousy wallowy handling and backbreaking ride over washboards and speed bumps. I'll never use them IRL if I could avoid it, but it'll be nice to include it on the slower (aka cheaper) cars just to provide the option of showing how and OEM car would handle.

Anyway, you're right about the implementation of 4-way dampers.

Last edited by Jamexing, Sun 22 Oct 2006, 05:54.

Quote from Ricerguy :

...that "everything i don't like must be rice" attitude is pissin' more people off everyday aye?...when i use this in LFS would i possible get better fps?

All too true, Ricerguy. Anything that has a wing and bodykit is considered ricer. Even when some of us actually pay as much as 10,000AUD to kit up our Nissan Skylines for REAL aerodynamic performance.

Anyway, adjustable shine isn't such a bad idea, though personally I wish all LFS cars were coated with shiny metallic or pearlescent paint schemes. +1.

Oh, need I remind everyone that more than half of the global population lives on rice?

One aspect of LFS that's still missing is a realistic damper curve. The current damper curve is just a linear straight line of constant gradient that goes to infinity, which is realistically non-existant.

IRL, all dampers have their unique characteristics. Some are rising rate, others roughly linear (with high speed blowoff that limits maximum damping force once piston speed exceeds a predetermined limit), digressive (very stiff until it hits a certain speed and softens) and combinations of the above above.

This addition will aid realism because IRL, damper characteristics have massive effects on transient handling. It'll go a long way to making LFS cars handle much closer to the real things.

Quote from tristancliffe :

James, just shut up. As a keyboarder you have now got next to no rights to claim ANYTHING about realism, you're just here for fun. If it was my way I'd remove all options of keyboard, and only leave mouse or wheel control options.

Firstly, we know you think the TBO class has got laggy turbos. Stuck Record. We know you want them improved and balanced. Stuck Record. We know you think auto-clutch is more realistic than button clutch. Stuck Record.

What we are saying is that the clutch options should be improved so that neither auto-clutch or button clutch are the most realistic NOR the quickest way of driving. Don't like it? Buy a fecking wheel mate, and stop whinging around saying 'I don't want LFS to be realistic because I can't cope with it'.

Just shut up until you have something new to say, because you just repeat the same stuff over and over again, like a spoilt little boy. I'd expect something new from you (going on your posting history) in about 2008.

YOU DARE TO SHOW SUCH STUPIDITY AND AUDACITY!

Finally, I've pried out your true nature. Always knew you were a complete **** and jerk. I could school you TO DEATH in RL car stuff and so far I've been remarkably patient given such jerkish behavior I've seen so far.

When was the last time I said I couldn't cope with clucth use? TELL ME.

AND CAN YOU PLEASE READ MY POSTS PROPERLY! I SAID I TRY TO RUN LFS AS REALISTICALLY AS HARDWARE ALLOWS. UNLIKE SOME OF YOU HERE, WE HAVE LIVES TO LIVE AND WORK TO DO, SO WE CAN'T JUST BINGE MONEY ON A LESS THAN COST EFFECTIVE GAME WHEEL WHEN MORE PRESSING MATTERS ARE AT HAND (SUCH AS MAINTANANCE OF REAL CARS).

FINALLY, I PAY AS MUCH FOR THE LICENSE AS ALL OF YOU HERE, SO MY POSTS ARE AS VALID AS EVERYONE ELSES. YOU ARE FREE TO CHECK OUT WITH THE DEVELOPERS ON THE LEGALITY AND VALIDITY OF MY LICENSE. AND YOU DARE TO TELL ME TO SHUT UP! DON'T WORRY, I'M WON'T BOTHER YOU GAMING JUNKIES AGAIN. REVEL IN YOUR ARROGANCE WHILE YOU STILL CAN. IT WON'T LAST.

Last edited by Jamexing, Fri 20 Oct 2006, 11:17.

Quote from daveb948576 :

i have a foot pedal clutch but when in first gear and foot off the clutch and foot on the brake in a real car the engine would stop.

even if you come to a stop if you dont put your foot on the clutch the engine should stop also.

thats for patch U87

ATM, proper manual clutch simulation is practically non-existant. A long standing problem that still hasn't been fixed yet.

Last edited by Jamexing, Fri 20 Oct 2006, 01:30.

Cue-ball, please watch the TBO WR replays. You'll discover that the top times all involve button clutch flat shifting which keeps the laggy turbo on full spool without the RL drawback of major engine and drivetrain trauma. That's why autoclutch with autoblip/lift is still a tad more realistic than button clutch. At least I won't suddenly shave 0.1 or more seconds off my lap times just because I use the button clutch. As it is, the autoclutch shifts about as quickly as I would a sport compact with a short shift gear lever. This flatshift issue is even worse with the turbo GTRs with even LAGGIER turbos (well, at least they should lag).

Even when I do get a great 3 pedal set, I'll still disagree with some of the forced options here if the majority of LFS players are still hardware limited. Let's just say that I'm a bit more considerate then some here. Once 3 pedal sets get real common and the clutch simulation is perfected, I'm all for turning all aids off.

The truth is, as good as LFS is ATM, there are still serious issues to the implementation of the option banning some driver aids. It's simply unfair and not so terribly realistic. With the clutch, transmission and other physics far from complete, why are we nick picking over this relatively pointless demand just to satisfy the whims of a small, lucky G25 owning minority? Even with your normal 2 pedal sets, the issue of the ridiculous button clutch rears its ugly head. One could force the use of axis clutch only, to the detriment of non G25 owners, since that's not properly doable. And when a sever is considered public, it's not because it's publically owned, but because it is open to use to the public (no passwords needed).

Scawen is much better off completing the physics, clutch, drivetrain simulation then waste precious time to satisfy the demands of a few. Please don't give the option to force things until LFS itself and the majority of the community is ready to realistically accomodate it. Let me again remind all here that the current active LFS community isn't as big as some of us might think. Most LFS players simply aren't heard from due to various practical reasons.

Speaking of repeats, this thread is in essence no different from the hardcore mode thread. As it is, LFS isn't really ready for a full-blown hardcore mode.

Finally, cue ball, stop throwing a bunch of silly assumptions about me. Ever wonder why these forums are dominated by just a few of us? I've read lots of threads and there's no surprise why I don't see many new guys partaking in serious discussions. And some of us here care more than just ourselves. And it's pretty obvious that you've completely misunderstood my intentions and statements. And if you're too tired to consistantly clutch and shift properly, you're probably fatigue and better off not racing at the time. And before you accsuse me of selfish motives, let me remind you that the majority of LFS and all other simulation racers are NOT G25 users. As mrodgers also said, all this talk of hardcore mode and shutting all aids off is based on the assumption that LFS is already fundamentally perfect in all ways related to driving. It's not.

To be more reasonable, let's do something like forced cockpit mode first. It doesn't really hurt anyone, but it'll definitely improve realism.

Last edited by Jamexing, Fri 20 Oct 2006, 06:39. Reason : clearification

Anyway, back to the point.

+infinity for addition of proper off-road vehicles. Anything form a Willys Jeep lookalike to Pajero EVOs and Baja racers with 36 inchess of suspension travel are welcome.

As for the Porsche, yes, there is now a very limited selecion of all-terrain tires for it these days. As for the suspension, it's a computer controlled airbag system with electronically controlled shocks, so off-road trim is just a push buton away. In fact, it is better off-road than virtually every other car in its class, barring the Range Rover of course.

Quote from KillerMonkey :

And last time I checked, Baja Buggies ate Porsche Boxter Ss around the track and pretty much everywhere else!

Baja buggys aren't exactly track cars. Their off road tires would be horrid in circuit use. Of course, they'll eat up almost every other class of 4 wheeled off-roader in pure speed, but that's another matter. Unless they have their suspensions retuned and reshod with tarmac biased tyres, you'll be surprised how badly they'll struggle on a twisty road track.

And last time I checked, modified production SUVs doing 120km/h and jumping over sand dunes in the Paris Dakar Rally isn't exactly slow motion.

Quote from MonkOnHotTinRoof :

I had some visitors today on my server (no driving aids allowed). It's surprising, how many people use helps. And when they disabled it, they weren't even able to change gears (and clutch isn't even well simulated ).

I use keyboard, yet I never use brake and trottle help no matter what I drive, from UF1 to BF1. I prefer to apply my RL acquired throttle and brake modulation skills whenever practically possible in LFS. The reasons I use autoclutch and blip for now are because LFS has NO proper simulation of a clutch yet and also due to the fact that I don't have a G25 quality steering set yet. Besides, autoclutch and autoblip/lift, though flawed, is still more realistic and fair overall especially for the current TBO cars with silly levels of turbo lag. As much as I'll like to clutch cars such as the TBOs manually, it's currently pointless not only due to lack of a 3 pedal set, but also because the current button clutch is simple absurd. I've tried driving with the manulaly actuated button clutch but simply couldn't stand it's unrealistic action. As well as I could dirve with a keyboard even with all the fancy fingerwork required to clutch->lift->shift->release clutch, it's not the sort of finger torture that anyone here would want to do for more than half an hour.

As you also agree, the current clutch simualtion simply isn't that good. Personally, I strive to play LFS with as much realism as I practically could, and if I had a G25, I won't use any aids at all, simply beacuse I don't need them and would actually end up slower with them. But even so, we have to be more considerate to those that are faced with real hardware issues. As it is, the current LFS community simply isn't big enough.

If there's anyone who emphasizes realism, that's me, but practical issues must be tended to. We can't just act like a bunch of elitist asshats that shun any noob that shows up with all driving aids on as he's still learning the basics. That is a surefire way to divide and eventually shrink our already quite small community. Positive encouragement generally works much better than intimidaiton and force, but it's somthing that seems lost to quite a few here.

Last edited by Jamexing, Fri 20 Oct 2006, 04:15. Reason : typo

Quote from Gimpster :

Gunn,

The G25 is a limited edition model, they are not planing to make a ton of them and not that many people have $300 lying around to by them. If they did ACT Labs setups would never have been cancled, only to slowly be reborn. The point is that the majority of us will not ever have a clutch or an H-Shifter. The ablity to use auto clutch or a sequential shifter should not be limited because this is a physical limitation. The other aids I see no problems limiting there use, as they are all skill based aids.

There are laws in many countries that prevent discrimination based on physical ability, but they don't for skill differences. I see this as no different. I have seen how this way of thinking can run a sim, Simbin's GTR2k2 mod was a good example. The only server I could ever find with other people were hardcore, no aids, and you know what they were almost always empty and full of elitest asshats. Going this route before the majority of the comunity has the physical means to access servers that are locked down with no allowed aids will fracture this comunity and will do it a great disservice.

Thanks for injecting a bit of rationality and common sense to this thread. I'm glad that someone starts recognizing how turning LFS servers into G25 exclusive sites when the current hardware simply can't achieve it for the masses at more reasonable prices would only lead to a fractured community.

Quote from KillerMonkey :

Who cares about big, slow SUVs? I'd rather take a Baja Buggy out for a spin

Last time I checked, Porche Cayenne Turbo S's ate Porsche Boxter S's on the track.

Truth is, there are currently NO circuits in LFS that would even stress a normal production SUV. There are NO circuits or tacks that suit any form of off-road vehicle in LFS yet (hopefully).

Quote from Gunn :

Actually Schumi is not a good example, he indeed does get involved in the engineering and makes suggestions based on that knowledge. It's one of the reasons why teams desire his service so fervently and one reason why he stands out as a very hard-working and dedicated driver. But indeed some drivers are not like this and would give more generic feedback to their crews.

Thanks for injecting a dose of racing reality. Goes to show why Micheal Schumacher is always a step in front of most (if not all) other drivers.

True, team engineers and mechanics don't do it for the glory. They do it because it's a job they like to do passionatley. They're NOT glory hoggers like some american race drivers I'll rather not mention. End of the day, it takes an experienced, knowledgable and understanding drivers such as Micheal Schumacher or Alain Prost to truely appreciate the importance of his team. It's just sad that the sensationalist media never shows things as they really are. Don't let that blind us from the truth, however. As I already mentioned earlier, those of us in the know know MUCH better than whatever the mass media tries to spoon feed us.

As for forced setups, I've already mentioned that there should at least be a few choices or some limited adjustments (such antiroll bars, tire pressures, etc) while the basic spring, steering and gearing remain fixed.

And please, no offense Cue-Ball, but absolutely identical singular setups DO NOT level the field. Please stop trying to bang our heads with this myth. As some of us already understand and mention (not just me), different drivers with different driving styles need different setups to do well. In the end, it all comes down to who's most suited to the single forced setup, not who's really the best. That's why it isn't really fair. Fixed springs, steering, gearing and other harder to adjust IRL settings are all that's needed. Drivers should at least be allowed to make a choice of which nature of setup to choose or at least some limited tweaking of the car. It's to make sure things are as fair as possible for all.

Last edited by Jamexing, Thu 19 Oct 2006, 04:25.

Quote from keltern :

doesn't look like he's tried S1.. xD


on topic, and i guess it has been mentioned a couple of times:

mid 1980's Formula 1 Turbo! now THAT is F1! we need competition to the BF1 people!

imagine, 1500cc on 4 cylinders, 4-6 bar turbopressure = 850++ bhp @ 10500 RPM!(!) and since LFS has connection with BMW already(?), why not try to get hold of blueprints of the BMW M12/13 TC powered car?

No not 850+hp. That's no better than the 3.0L V-10s.

Back in those days, those 1.5L V6 monsters made as much as over 1200hp for the top teams. If the car has enough power to not warrant the use of full power at ANY part of the track, THEN we have enough horsepower.