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None of the links working?

My web site was running slow and I asked to be switched to another server. Ipower did this but without warning. I'm in the process of restoring my web site currently, but with cable modem upload speed of 1mb/s (about 140kilo-bytes per second), and about 7GB of data to upload it's going to take a while. I'll get the gpl stuff up next.

Update: gpl and lfs stuff is restored now.

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lfs vs xxx threads

Something to chat about while we wait for the next release. The developers have been busy with real life lately, so it's slowed things down a bit. Considering the age of the Papy games, they really aren't competitors. And the Sold Out version GPL can be purchased for less than $10 online. You can also get the GPL 2004 demo for free.

One thing, is that most will agree that the graphics in LFS are better than the graphis of GPL. I also included the reverse steering video (which will eventually be back up) to show a quirk in GPL's physics.

A better title for this thread would be Papy games, a nostalgic look. As the only reason I did a LFS vs ... was to complete the list of LFS vs ... games. Most have been ISI games, but the Papy games should be included as well. Also maybe some expert with both games could offer constructive advice for LFS.

Last edited by JeffR, Fri 27 Oct 2006, 05:22.

Quote from nosliw :

I don't get it....

Maybe you've helped power the zombie mobile, so you'll never get it, as the zombie mobile consumed your brain.

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another game with drifting like LFS

This was from another thread. If you pay attention to the video, you'll see that the zombie mobile does a good job of drifting.

Thought the LFS vs Papy sims would be the last LFS vs other racing game thread but I forgot about HNR, The Simpsons Hit and Run racing game.

Now before you start calling HNR an arcade game, remember that it's a simulation of the cars in the Simpsons cartoon series. In this respect, HNR is probably one of the most accurate sims of all. In addition, you have the actual cars and tracks (the streets of Springfield), as well as the actual characters from the cartoon series. What could be more accurate than that? As usual, I made a video, a tour of Springfield, in the Zombie mobile, an alternative energy source vehicle, which gets it's power from zombie brains instead of gasoline, what could be more politically correct?

hnr.wmv

Might as well complete the list of LFS versus other sims here. Although I haven't seen a LFS versus NFS, I don't think that there will be one.

Grand Prix Legends - Ignoring the trainer's it was originally a one car class game, but now there are 1965 and 1969 (downforce) mods. But for me, I'll restrict the comparason to the original 1967 F1 car physics. The high power (400hp) low weight (1300lbs), no downforce, and huge slip angles (10+ degrees) made this sim unusual. Granted that interest has waned quite a bit, but I still run some hotlaps every now an then. GPL was the first sim where I learned about induced understeer. There is a quirk in the physics of at least the Lotus when braking balance is around 53% (front), and possibly requiring a minimal amount of toe out at the front, where braking hard and steering one direction causes the car to yaw the opposite way gplrs.wmv, but for the most part the game seems to have the right feel. The cars are difficult to handle at the limits, but not unreasonably unstable. Sample dual view video:

gplrngs.wmv

Nascar Racing 2003 - I like the Trans-Am cars and all the add-on road course type tracks the most, but I did spend about 6 weeks on and off checking out the open servers online, which is mostly racing the high speed, restrictor plate, ovals, which ends up with a lot of cars bunched up together and a lot of wrecks, and the occasional win, but at 30 minutes or so per race, it's time consuming. Still there were about 300 players online during the week, and about 500 players during weekends (don't know what it's like now). Regarding the standard cars on ovals, there's been some feedback from real racers that state that NR2003 is very close. I haven't found any real quirks with the physics of NR2003. Sample video - Trans Am mod, viper at willow springs, quad view:

nrwsvp.wmv

LFS - Since versions S2 Alpha S and later, the tire physics are very good. I like the addition of the faster cars to the game. I haven't driven all the cars, but I do like the FO8, LX6, and the BF1. I made a couple of dual view videos:

lfsblf1.wmv
lfsslzg.wmv

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In fact I know of no game where you can drift cars like you can do in LFS.

The rally sims (Richard Burns, Colin McRae) allow a lot of drifting. GTLegends also has a lot of drifting with some of it's cars, but difficult to control in some of them, especially in cars like the Pantera (unless you're Greger Huttu or one of the other alien drivers who seem to be able to drive fast and sideways with just about any sim). In Grand Prix Legends it looks like you're drifting, but it's mostly because the tires used on the 1967 F1 cars had large working slip angles.

With both GTR and GTR2, there's not enough steering lock to recover from a typical oversteer event, but with GTR2, induced understeer works (steer inwards hard enough to washout the front end). It's not fast, but it's better than facing backwards.

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no arms

Must depend on which ISI game. GTLegends has it:

gtlhckpnt.wmv

So does GPL, but the shifting is done via telekinesis.

gplkllt.wmv

If there's an issue after so many minutes of play, it might be related to the replay. Try turning off the replay feature and see if this makes a difference.

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Ford Racing 2 - body roll and suspension show up well in driving view

So why doesn't rFactor if its meant to be such a good racing simulator?

Ford Racing 2 was an unexpected suprise regarding the driving view. Most games seem to keep the driver's head vertical, but I think Ford Racing 2's making the view relative to the car was a cool effect. It really added to the realism for me. It's possible that the .PLR file for an ISI game allows you to adjust this, but I haven't messed with them that much, except for increasing volume on tire sounds.

Shouldn't this sound stuff be in it's own thread? For me, there are some sounds I like for replays, but not for extended periods because those sounds are too loud, harsh, or drown out the tire noises. In the case of GPL, I use a mellow generic engine sound for hot lapping and a louder, more realistic sound for replays or making videos. With the newer ISI games, I adjust the tire scrub and skid volumes in the .PLR file so I can hear them more clearly.

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basically a LMP style car just a few leagues lower?

I'm greedy, why not a the standard 3 levels for LMP cars, two lower ones and a full out LMP racer.

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Who says the LX are caterhams anyway

True, I was just using the Caterham power range as an example.

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140hp, 200hp, 260hp

Ok, I was just reposting to a thread that's bascially a duplicate of an older thread. These were just suggestions, right now it's 140, 190, and ??? (what was the LX8 going to be?). I only suggested 200 instead of 190 to make it 60hp increments. I've seen some posts about the top speed of the LX6 being 160+mph, which is a bit high, but since it's not a real car it could just be more aerodynamic than a typical Lotus 7 clone.

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Jeff posted "bias ply slicks" again

Yes but it was a question about anti versus pro ackerman steering geometry. I've been very postive about the new tire physics and posted so right after the last update.

Would make a cool addition to the garage.

picture: radsr8.jpg

video: radsr8nrd.mpg

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redo the LX series and not base it on number of cylinders, but instead on power

Yes, but I don't think that any cars that are already in LFS are going to be that drastically changed.

You can't see the engines, and the LX6 exhaust only appears to have 4 collector pipes (implying 4 cylinder engine). The LX6 inline 6 is making 190hp, while the real Caterham CSR 260 Duratech 2.3 liter inline 4 is making 260hp. The Duratech motor is very light. Probably the best V8 for the Caterham would be the one used in a Radical SR8, using the heads from two motorcycles engines with a custom lower end, but this is 360hp.

As I posted in a similar thread:

I would redo the LX series and not base it on number of cylinders, but instead on power. Caterhams are available with horsepower from 120hp (only classic has 105hp) to the 260hp CSR 260, all with very light 4 cylinder engines: http://www.caterham.co.uk/showroom/index.htm.

Since these are the current cars, LFS should model these, not the cars of the past. If there are to be 3 different LX's, then I'd recommend 140hp, 200hp, and 260hp. The 260hp version should have bias ply slicks, as these are often used for wheel to wheel racing. The CSR 260 includes a dry sump oil system so it can deal with the conering forces from slicks.

Now they won't admit it, but Eric, Scawen, and Victor have made their own special developers version of LFS that only they can play. It has the LX8, nitrous oxide boost, motion blur, and slicks for all cars.

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It looks like the driver was using a keyboard (judging by the steering wheel movement, but with FFB that bad it's not surprising he drives like a lemon).

I'm no racing sim expert, only a -12 GPL Rank, but I'm am faster than most lemons. No FFB, just twin joysticks, left for throttle / brake, right for steer; picture of setup .jpg. The Porsche is a bit loose, so that's why the wild steering movement. Take a look at the steering inputs used "Sideways" Stefan Roser in a real life Porsche 911 RUF aka "Yellow Bird":

nrdprsch1.wmv

If you want suspension / body roll in the view, a cheap budget racer, called Ford Racing 2 does a good job:

fr2stk.wmv

Last edited by JeffR, Fri 13 Oct 2006, 16:40.

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But I always get the impression that the car is static and the track is dynamic. Like if one would steer the track around the car.

Maybe it depends on the rFactor mod.

Nordschleife in the Porche (PCC 1.2 mod)
rfrnrdpcc.wmv

Quite a bit faster in the CTDP 2005 F1 mod:
rfrnrd2005f1.wmv

Quote from tristancliffe :

You need to work on your understanding of irony and sarcasm mate. It's not the first time you've been caught out, and whilst your nationality goes some way to explain your inability, it's been long enough.

If only you guys from the UK and Europe would get a proper sense of humor and learn proper English, the way us folks from the USA, and especially Texas (although I'm in California now) do.

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Even in NASCAR hitting each other isn't permitted.

The most recent race was won by Brian Vickers who crashed Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Jimmie Johnson on the final lap bump drafting. Some didn't like it, other's said it was just racing. Apparently, just like fighting in USA ice hockey, us Americans like the NASCAR format designed to provide lots of entertaining crashes. Combining the two, we need more racing games that include post race fights.

(A bit out of touch with the tone of my reply, some forms of racing, like go-karts, involve a lot of contact. OK, all seriousness aside now).

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And no, we aren't meant to flatspot tyres etc, but locking a wheel is a somewhat smaller mistake. Really Jeff, pay attention.

Us folks in the USA have short attention spans. If it wasn't for beer, even NASCAR wouldn't be popular. I don't drink, so maybe that's why I'm not a fan.

Getting back on topic, there have been a lot of posts of replays and movies from the grandaddy of racing sims, Grand Prix Legends, of spectacular but unrealistic crashes. Plus GPL has a cool damage mode where the cars just fly apart after a good crash. Why else put those buildings at the Masta kink at Spa, or the tree so well positioned just before Adenauer Forst at Nordschleife?

Last edited by JeffR, Thu 12 Oct 2006, 17:43.

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It's not a big bug - the point of racing is NOT to hit each other.

Even in NASCAR?

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Thus if you are a good racer you'll never experience it

Racers shouldn't lock up the wheels either during braking, but how much development time has gone into trying to model flat spotting and hot spots? (IMO, I never thought it was needed, especially since the implementation involves comprimises like segmenting a tire).

Now I want to find that Grand Prix Legends replay where a car spins on it's nose for about a minute. Cool looking crashes are a plus in my opinion.

Last edited by JeffR, Thu 12 Oct 2006, 11:22.

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The driver has the legs in the cockpit, but has no arms.

GTR2, like GPL has both. Need For Speed Porsche Unleashed, was the opposite, head, arms, torso, but no legs. You couldn't see this unless you ran with collision off and drove through another player's car, or from a few TV camera views when watching a replay of a open convertible.

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Just to translate from JeffR's language to normal language in reference to his last post for those that don't speak Jeff

Sorry USA here.

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downforce

Downforce was a bad choice of words, vertical load is correct.

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Bias ply = crossply

USA folks / tire manufacturers call them bias ply.

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You don't worry so much about the inside tyre.

Except in a high (aerodynamic) downforce car, like the F1, or possibly the FO8 (less power, so less downforce). If there will be high downforce Lemans type cars in S3, then it would affect them as well.

Quote from Gentlefoot :

So why, and I asked in my previous post, would you ever want the outside wheel to be set up for a smaller radius than the inside wheel? I'm assuming I understand you correctly with this term 'anti-ackerman'

The outside wheel has more downforce on it than the inside wheel, and the theory goes that with some tires, the outside tire can handle more slip angle than the inside tire, so the inside tire would have less slip angle than the outside tire (toe in). I found a reference to why a car might be best setup with anti-ackerman, but you have to pay for a course to get this info.

http://www.motec.com.au/topics.htm

I've read a few forum posts that open wheel race cars use anti-ackerman steering (probably high downforce cars), so maybe the FO8 or the F1 could use it, but considering the source, I don't know if it's true.

However, the article I first linked to implies that with most tires and street type cars, the maximum force slip angle may increase when the downforce is decreased, and in this case parallel or pro-ackerman steering would make sense.

I wonder if radial and bias ply based racing slicks behave differently.

Last edited by JeffR, Wed 11 Oct 2006, 11:16.

3.5g's at 183kmh, with what, max downforce? Video below mentions 4 g's at 160mph.

There's always the CTDP 2005 F1 mod for rFactor:

A sub 5:30 run at Norschliefe:
rfrnrd2005f1.wmv

Tv view of AI's racing / bumping each other:
rfr2005f1.wmv

The real thing, David Coulthard in a 2002 F1 McLaren. Pulls 4g's at 160mph. Also seems to take the curbs much smoother that most cars in racing sims do.
spaf1.wmv

Last edited by JeffR, Wed 11 Oct 2006, 02:00.

I guess the bump steer setting could also be used to accomplish the same thing. As the outside of the car lowers, and the inside of the car rises, the bump steer settings could adjust the toe factor as needed.

I had the impression from the article, that anti-ackerman might help with certain restricted classes of cars.

The range for the parallel setting should include anti-ackerman range, where the more you steer, the more toe-out you get. Here's a link to a web site with an explanation:

ackerman.html