Quote from BigPeBe :

Even sport cars have a rotation of usually at least two rounds from left to right.

Caterhams (like the LX6) are a less than two rounds lock to lock, with a go-kart like feel in the steering and driving response, but these weigh less than 1500 lbs.

Formula 1 and similar race cars have steering "yokes", not wheels:

http://jeffareid.net/real/spaf1.wmv

Other than a few gaming rigs, and simulations designed to use them, the force feedback in the steering from games isn't realistic, so less sensitive steering is normally used.

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 18 May 2009, 04:46.

Quote from chavm481 :

that looks JUST like Prostreet.

Yes but the physics is clearly different as the cars aren't pulling 5 g's in the turns the way the do in ProStreet.

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahQURkpHkzY&fmt=18

Quote from deggis :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-YcVH5zrug&fmt=18

That is a fantasy track from ProStreet - Tokyo Dockyard - Shimbashi but driving backwards from the ProStreet version. Here's a video from ProSteet, with it's hyper-peformance Zonda as opposed to the more realistic Porsches in the youtube video, the circle with minus is because I'm driving the track backwards:

http://jeffareid.net/nfsp/npgsbrznd.wmv

Quote :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKG0m-o_Q1U

That's Brands Hatch. Since 25 ex-GTR employees are now part of the shift team, a video of Brand Hatch from GTR Evolution, Formula 3000 race car:
http://jeffareid.net/gte/gtebhf3k.wmv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUOws0TV1Oo&fmt=18

http://jeffareid.net/real/driftb.wmv

There some divx status window that you need to disable in order for Virtualdub to be able to use divx. Don't know if that's the issue as usually it just locks up Virtuadub.

Quote :

STD

Apparently I was wrong about this. STD is some type of special transmission made in Brazil, an alternative to DCT (dual clutch transmission).

Quote from Mayerz :

Iron Butterfly - In a gadda da vida

I'm actually old enough to have seen them at a concert (back in my high school days). The intro band was Jethro Tull.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Jeffr, how come you didn't include any hyper-link videos in this thread?

Videos:

LFS videos (note these take a while, my wonderful host provider put a cap on download rate so these older "dual" view videos take longer to start playing).

F1 at Blackwood by MacEST:
http://jeffareid.net/lfs/lfsblf1.wmv

FZ50GTR at South City Long by Arreche
Note induced understeer being used, on last tight turn after long downhill straight, a wierd combination with a lot of induced understeer to initiate turn quickly followed by countersteer.
http://jeffareid.net/lfs/lfsslzg.wmv

Underground 2 had race tracks
http://jeffareid.net/nfs8/n8url.wmv

But this is part of what NFS is about:
http://jeffareid.net/nfs8/n8or.wmv

How about Undercover and responsible driving:

http://jeffareid.net/nfsuc/nucjeits.wmv
http://jeffareid.net/nfsuc/nuccshbs.wmv

Most Wanted even better example for kids:

http://jeffareid.net/nfs9/n9fprw.wmv

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 11 May 2009, 15:24.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Jeff does not have a sense of humour or a sense of irony.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

LFS is a sim. NFS is a fun game. Both are games ...

Quote from Shadowww :

ROFL

Is this irony? That would explain why I don't get it.

Quote from MadCatX :

Design used in current GPUs makes them very capable of parallel processing which is perfect to render an image as pixels are mutually independent, so you can calculate one without knowing a thing about some another. The point? Point is that this very specific design brings no benefit to physics acceleration unless the objects you are working with can be considered PARTICLES.

It's not just pixel stuff, the current crop of GPU's include generic floating point math in vector mode (4 to 16 operations in parallel), making them good when doing similar math on multiple obects, such as the 4 suspension components ina single car, or multiple car physics (though most games use simplified physics for AI cars). Click on the links from my previous post about stream procesing and vector processors.

Quote from Gener_AL (UK) :

Dual Boot

It's also provides an easy means to back up and/or restor the primary OS partition (while running the "other" OS).

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Oh great another NFS vs LFS/Sim battle

Nothing in this thread is making a comparson of the games. It's not NFS vs LFS, it's whether sim-oriented players also enjoy arcade games, so its can NFS be fun in addition to LFS? Instead of NFS, it could just as well be can LFS players enjoy Half Life, Crysis, Far Cry, Halo, Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, TombRaider, ...

Quote from JeffR :

In the case of Underground 2, the normal hidden traction control assist in NFS games is gone and it's possible to induced oversteer under power or by downshifting, even spin the cars.

Quote from tristancliffe :

That's amazing. Who thought of adding that feature to an arcade game?

It's the only existing NFS game with proper oversteer, but I also like the large landscape with a nice night time view of the city from up in the canyons (reminds me of the Hollywood Hills view overlooking Los Angeles). There's a lot of posts about Porsche Unleashed being realistic, but that's mostly because the prior game, High Stakes was even more arcade.

Back on topic, I'm hoping people lighten up a bit about the development pace for LFS. The game is pretty good in it's current state and I see well over 1000 players online at peak times based on LFS World stats. If it's not a case of real life interfering with the game development, then there must be something pretty important to the developers to get implemented if it's taking this long.

Burn out is also an issue. A a few sim-oriented web sites and RAS, you see posts about players waiting for the next best thing, enjoying for a few months then waiting again for yet another new thing. The time periods are getting shorter for most of the older players, and I don't see the same level of influx of new players in any racing game compared to the past, say 2005 and earlier.

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 11 May 2009, 13:30.

Since no one is adding to the top ten list, might as well continue off topic.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Who is Warren Chamberlain? Wasn't he an British Prime Minister?

An SCCA racer (not sure if he still races), but not someone famous. We corresponded and he mentioned that induced understeer was a common techinque for the "evil mid engine clio" and similar handling cars. Apparently the best lap time setups for these cars are more oversteer prone than the setup for other types of cars.

3rd place in points in sf SCCA class 2002:
http://www.sfrscca.org/content/view/4423/130

Also wrote a few articles, this one a bit strange though:
http://freespace.virgin.net/adrian.rose/brain.htm

Quote :

arcade racing games

Racing games are a small niche. Realistic racing games are an even smaller niche. Considering that NFS Underground 2 and Most Wanted sold 9 million copies each, and that Carbon and ProStreet about 5 million each there's some interest in these games, but these numbers pale in comparason to the "Sims" series or World of Warcaft. I just happen to like both sim-oriented and arcade racing games. Some of the arcade games have some realistic handling aspects. In the case of Underground 2, the normal hidden traction control assist in NFS games is gone and it's possible to induced oversteer under power or by downshifting, even spin the cars. The power of the cars is over the top, but the claimed grip levels from testing run around 1.5 g's max, although it appears to be more. Even in an extreme arcade game like High Stakes, the Mercedes CLK GTR had a high working slip angle and required early turn in to allow the car to yaw inwards and take a set for a turn, a bit similar to what happens in GPL as you turn in early and appear to drift towards the apex of a turn because of the high working slip angle.

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 11 May 2009, 13:16.

Quote from JeffR :

Sometimes I manage to contribute something: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=54891

Quote from tristancliffe :

A thread about a driving technique nobody with any sense would use?

As pointed out, it a technique used in the real world with some cars (eg Warren Chamberlain used it for his mid-engine Clio in SCCA (USA) races), and it's been used by gamers since the days of GPL and continues be used by some in iRacing.

Quote :

NFS a bad thing?

Quote :

NFS is rubbish.

Rubbish is in the eye of the beholder. A lot of real world racers consider all racing games to be rubbish. A game doesn't have to be realistic or any activity relevant, in order to be enjoyable. I also like Tomb Raider and it's not realistic, atlhough the relatively recent introduction of realistic "jiggle" is a bonus for some fans.

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 11 May 2009, 11:17.

Quote from Gener_AL (UK) :

Yes the point i made about offloading intructions to the GPU is IF they become x86 compatbile.

That's not the point of the GPU's. Multi-core cpues will deal with the x86 stuff. Where GPU's can help is with stream processing like operations where parallel calculations can be done. For example the physics calculations of multiple cars done in parallel, using GPU's on a PC similar to the math units of vector processors

Quote from tristancliffe :

Jeff has proven time and time again over the years that he does not have a sense of humour

Well not a British sense of humor. I'm realistic though, I don't have any plans to quit my day job and become a comedian.

Quote :

or a sense of irony.

I don't get it.

Quote :

thought provoking

Sometimes I manage to contribute something: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=54891 and there have been 37 posts in this thread. I thought something a bit lighthearted complared to all the recent complaints would help. Besides, I've been stuck at the computer waiting for old home videos to be rendered for conversion to DVD, an ongoing project.

Quote :

he like NFS games too.

Is that a bad thing?

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 11 May 2009, 10:50.

Quote :

motion blur

I've never seen a game do a true motion blur (film like quality emulation of long shutter open time) on scenery. The closest is the tires in some games.

The player keeps advancing to the next song as I'm posting here, so I can't just mention one. Some of my weird combination of music, limiting it to just one song per artist.

Jazz

George Benson - Love Ballad
Norman Brown - That's the Way Love Goes
Joyce Cooling - Before Dawn
Manhattan Transfer - Birdland
Miles Davis - Take Five (not the 5/4 song see below)
Ocello & Herbie Hancock - Nocturnal Sunshine
Steps Ahead - Safari
Wayman Tisdale - Lowdown

Disco:

4 Strings - Summer Sun
Archie Bell and the Drells - Let's Groove
Delerium - Underwater
Marvin Gaye - Got To Give It Up
La Tour - Blue (used in Basic Instinct)
Miss Jane - It's A Fine Day
Donna Summers - I Feel Love
Trammps - That's Where The Happy People Go

R&B

Gap Band - party train
George Clinton - dog catcher
Isley Brothers - Fight the Power
James Brown - Say It Loud, I'm Black and I'm Proud
Teddy Pendergrass - Love TKO
The Brothers Johnson - I'll Be Good To You
Temptations - Poppa Was a Rolling Stone

Rock:

Autograph-Turn Up The Radio
Aerosmith - Rag Doll
Billy Idol - Rebel Yell
Buck Cherry - Cocaine
Buffalo Springfield - Bluebird
Chris Rea - Workin' on It
Crosby Stills Nash Young - Woodstock
The Doors - Riders On The Storm
Jimi Hendrix - Voodoo Child (Slight Return)
Kansas - Dust in the Wind
John Cougar Mellencamp - Pop Singer
Led Zepplin - Kashmir
Supertramp - Take The Long Way Home
The Police - Demolition Man
Tom Petty - Running Down A Dream
Rolling Stones - Love Is Strong
ZZ Top - Gimme All Your Love

New Age:

Mars Lasar - Cellular City
Johannes Schmoelling - Matjora is Still Alive
Hans Zimmer - Leaving Wallbrook (from Rainman)

Guitar - folk - country

Chris Issac - Wicked Games
Chris Rea - Looking For The Summer
Crosby Stills Nash Young - Guinnevere
Joni Mitchell and James Taylor - You can close your eyes
Bruce Springsteen - I'm On Fire
Michael Tomlinson - The Way We're Going
Traveling Wilburys - End Of The Line
Emerson, Lake, and Palmer - From The Beginning

Other

Godley and Creme - Cry (Miami Vice Remix)
Tangerine Dream - Love on a Real Train (Risky Business)
Todd Rundgren - Tiny Demons (Miami Vice)

5/4 songs (just a strange grouping here)

Mission Impossible Theme
Jethro Tull - Living In The Past
Dave Brubeck - Take Five

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 11 May 2009, 00:13.

I changed the title to something more what I intended. Need more "reaons" for being so busy.

Last edited by JeffR, Sun 10 May 2009, 00:11.

Quote from zeugnimod :

This thread would be better if the "reasons" in the first post were actually funny.

Hey I tried. Thought a lighter side to this to balance the negative threads might help.

Quote from 5haz :

Don't you lot ever get tired of going round in circles?

I don't drive the ovals, so I wouldn't know.

Quote from Furiously-Fast :

Who has downloaded the challenge series?

Both of us players that still have NFSUC for the PC. (OK, maybe there are more than just 2 of us).

The new cars unlocked by the challenge series show up as "special edition" cars in the career shop, and also as bonus cars. A few of the events took quite a few retires, like the 2nd (street silver) Highway Battle. Some of the pro takeout and cost to state challenges had fairly short times to beat.

Although the GT2 is released last, the Dominator Z06 which is released after 30 dominations (or 31 if you you dominate all the regular level challenges first which rewards the RX7) is the quickest of this bunch. The lack of downforce is an issue, combined with hills and bumps, as it's difficult to turn when your car is airborne. Then again, NFSUC has magic nitrous that increases downforce to help here a bit. The CCX, accessed via a savegame editor is still the overall fastest car.

Lastly, the next NFS is NFS Shift, some of you here keep leaving out the "f" in shift.

This is what the challenge board looks like when completed:


React RX7:


Speed Machine GT2:


Dominator Z06:


Might as well include a video of one of the highway battle events. The idea here is to rip through traffic and hope that by sheer dumb luck in the somewhat randomness of the ai car, that the ai car crashes well enough allowing you to get a 1000 foot lead within the "domination" time. Usually after 3 to 5 dozens good runs this happens by pure chance. The video shows intro clip, doing a pit manuver that isn't even good for a 500 foot lead, a runaway where the AI car simply drives away while the player car is pegged at it's top speed, one of those 1 in 50 runs where the player dominates just in time and a 1 in bazillion chance happening where the ai car get trapped against a wall. Videos made with world effects set to low (no blooming yellow and blur effects):

http://jeffareid.net/nfsuc/nuccshbs.wmv

youtube version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXtsrd8YyXU&fmt=22

Last edited by JeffR, Sat 9 May 2009, 23:26.

OK, it's been a long time now, and I don't think it's directly related to the VWS car, but some significant change to the internals to make the physics better, and perhaps the math that goes along with these changes is requiring more parameters per car be created and all of this is taking quite a while.

Still there are more "interesting" reasons for the long delays, not enough for a top ten reasons why progress is slow but in no specific order, so please add to the list.

The development team is still going through recovery from stds they picked up while on vacation at Rio.

The development team is still trying to purge the internet of any videos taken of them during their vacation at Rio.

The development is still working on visual customizations for their Honda Civic in NFS Underground 2. The sticking points seem to be what large decals to use, the vinyl colors, and what speakers to use in the trunk.

The development team is still trying to remove the stains on the seats (don't ask) in their loaner VW Scirocco before returning it.

The development team has been covertly doing consultant work for the NFS Shift team.

Last edited by JeffR, Mon 11 May 2009, 14:45.

Quote from DragonCommando :

If you hold the button, it only counts for the instant you pressed it and no more. this way, holding the shift button and then clutching will not actualy shift.

Which is the way it works on a lot of racing games, yet this issue never seems to surface in the threads here regarding macros. I had played LFS for a long time before I found out about this exploit in shifting (athough I continue to use a generic macro, which doesn't shift as fast, but does give me auto-blip and auto-cut).

I've seen this in use on other games and it works well. The main purpose is to prevent wreckers from bothering the actual racers. The main issue is if pit stops are relatively long enough to put a player down a lap, then collision (and normally drafting) is off.

There is a tiny time window (time window = car length / speed) during the time when a lapped car is crossing the finish line. This can be solved by using 1/2 lap counters is another (cars can't be close to each other and not be on the same 1/2 lap, so implementing a 1/2 lap counter solves the problem).

Drafting with collision off is another issue. Normally drafting is off when collision is off, to prevent two cars with collision off from teaming up and drafting through each other. This can be a problem if pit stops put players a lap down, which would prevent those players from drafting cars that hadn't pitted yet.

Last edited by JeffR, Tue 5 May 2009, 05:33.

If most players are aware of this, then why the fuss regarding macros? A macro to press clutch button, press and release shift button, release clutch button, isn't going to help if LFS just lets the shift button be held down and the clutch button used to do actual shifts.

After all the fuss defending removal of auto-blip and auto-clutch, I always wondered why no one complained about this non auto-clutch shift "exploit", other than the occational mention of the lack of auto-clutch players in the hotlap leaderboards.