teamName: Team Rock Racing
car: XRR
number: 07
drivers:
- {Tomhah, Tommy Østgaard, Norway}
- {vtiracing, Reno Kööts, Estonia}
- {Yuusei, Joe Letteriello, USA}

teamName: Team Rock Racing #2
car: XRR
number: 51
drivers:
- {rik97, Rik Kardol, The Netherlands}
- {diitseipoika, Jonne Hannula, Finland}
- {Masterboy19660815, Thorsten Ulrich, Germany}
- {Niggo, Nicholas Wrage, Germany}

Last edited by Tomhah, Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:27.

Quote from Kristi :

I recommend Sma to anyone. Cool guy and he is capable of improving in the proper environment :P

100% agree here. He is a fantastic guy, both as a person and on the track. He is just great, really!

Quote from dekojester :

NDR Sporting Code VII.1 : "All drivers which start a session shall be listed in the session results."

Therefore, you are in the results. You are still placed, as per VII.1.2: "Drivers or teams participating in a session shall be classified as follows: By laps completed then time; or time, as appropriate. All drivers who start and are not disqualified will be ordered without considering current race status. Any driver or team who is disqualified will be placed behind all other starters. Any driver or team who does not start will not be listed in the classification."

Therefore, you are still CREDITED as the fastest of your team, since you are the highest placed. The GT1WS rule is actually interpreted as "HIGHEST PLACED" even though the rule states "FASTEST" as they are almost always one and the same. I will strengthen the wording following this round, so that it states highest placed, but it has been consistently enforced as fastest of a team. You are compared to your teammates, not the session result for the GT1WS lock.

Alright, thank you very much for the clarification

Quote from dekojester :

Allow me to explain the execution of results by way of example:

There are two drivers, A and B in a session, Driver A sets a fastest time of 1:30.12 and Driver B a time of 1:30.22.

1) Driver A gets Disqualified for whatever infraction, Driver B would be the fastest because he ranks higher than Driver A because Driver B is still eligible.

2) If both Drivers A and B get disqualified, Driver A would be the fastest because they are on the same eligibility level and A is faster.

How could I possible know this before you just told me? Is it written anywhere?
From the rule you and I posted above, that is not mentioned. If you invalidate all my laps so I do not stand with a single valid lap, I dont hold any laptime, and for that reason cannot hold a fastest lap. (By what I've read from the rules).

Quote from dekojester :

Since you were the only one to participate, you still have the fastest time: Even though they were disallowed to the official result (ie you can't use the times to get into the race) they are still used for the participation check.

Cool. Where is that written in the rules? I could not find it. Would been great if you could link it to me, so I know where to look next time

Last edited by Tomhah, Fri, 11 Jan 2013 17:45.

Quote from Denny12 :

facepalm

GT1 World Series Rules Book VIII.4: "The driver credited with the fastest time in pre-qualifying for a team will be locked to that team for the remainder of that round"


I have no time.

Quote from dekojester :

Yes you can change teams twice in the season.

No, you cannot change teams during a round once you have participated with a team. GT1 World Series Rules Book VIII.4: "The driver credited with the fastest time in pre-qualifying for a team will be locked to that team for the remainder of that round"

Even though your times were disallowed, you are still tied to #06 Team Rock Racing for the remainder of the round, so you cannot move to CoRe Racing or any other team.

Since all my laps were invalidated, I do not have a fastest lap, do I?

Quote from boothy :

I would like to ask a few questions to those who were disqualified (and even those who were not):

1. Did you know about the forum post by deko in post #2 of this thread before pre-qualifying started?
   
2. Did you know about the section in sporting code prohibiting wrong way driving?
   
3. Was this information included in the pre-qualifying PM?
   
4. Did you do all of your pre-qualifying outlaps via the pit entry?
   
5. Did you notice others doing it in the server?
   
6. If half of the field decided to ignore SC procedures in a race (and say, overtake before the s/f line), should they be penalised?
   

1. No, I did not.
2. No, I did not. But yes, I have read it.
3. Not as something I was thinking of specifically, no. I did not think of it/know.
4. No, I did not.
5. I was pretty much the only one there, so no.
6. If someone protested, yes, because they broke the rules and gained an unfair advantage. Which is cheating (in gaining an unfair advantage). None of us gained an unfair advantage, and I am not arguing about being penalized. I did something wrong. I have never said the opposite. I may have deserved a penalty, I will not argue against that. I broke a rule. But what I am arguing about is the penalty. The way it is now, I will get a harder penalty than if I blocked someone, or punt someone off. I guess that would have given me a 10-grid penalty, if they even bothered to protest.

Let me turn the last one around:
Lets say half of the field passed before the start/finish line, should all of them be disqualified from the race? I would consider that worse than doing what we did.

Last edited by Tomhah, Fri, 11 Jan 2013 16:35.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

no



Is Tommy allowed to do that?

Why should I not? You are allowed to do two team-changes a season. This is my first one. It says all my laps were invalidated, not that I am excluded from the round.
If TRR had a 2nd driver who had put in a good time to go further, I could have still driven the race and qual for TRR, couldnt I?

I do not mean that Deko should change the decision now that it is made, sorry if I made it sound that way. But I am discussing this to get the penalty down a nodge or two for the future rounds and leauges.

I do not agree that a DSQ is a penalty that fits. And I am by no means saying I did nothing wrong. I did. I am not arguing about that at all. I have clearly said it many times that I did something wrong.

What I am on about is the really harsh penalty from this. Driving wrong way for 5 meters without anyone seeing it, is not as bad on a simulator as in real life. Real life have something called safety, we do not in LFS. We cannot get hurt, and we have aids that helps us know about the conditions on the track. There are many different things we do on the simulator, that we do not in real life and the opposite. Again, I am not saying this should be allowed. I am saying (with my opinion) that the penalty is too harsh for the actual damage.

A pre-qual is not like a 30 min qual or a race with a full grid. Chatting is allowed as well.

So a DQ is in my opinion too harsh, and I mean a loss of fastest lap would be sufficient enough.

That is my opinion.

I am sorry if I made it look like I ment this only for GT1WS. This is not the first time I disagree with a thing like this. And I thought this was whar the thread is about. I was simply trying to state ny own opinion. I am not affected by any mood, please dont have a go at me when disagreeing. I respect your opinion and is gladly Reading them. And I disagree with you, but I respect that is your opinion.

I have admit I made a mistake, but that belongs to GT1WS thread. Will post here later and see if I can describe what I mean in a more understandable way. Now, I am back to work.

Quote from ZanZi :

A simple r/w barrier would've made people think before do.

Im with a bit of mixed feelings tbh. For the sake of applying the rules, sending out a message to the public that rules are strictly followed its right thing to do. But on the other side of the coin, we cant compare sim racing to rl simply because we're at home, cant get hurt (except if you lay your chin on the wheel and some one hits hard your car ).

In my view, the actual penalty given for breaking this specific rule is a tad too harsh. We're in a situation that the grid will have 2 empty spaces not because of lack of interest but because the rules say so. Rules usually are made to help contain a certain process in a pre-set margins and if the process goes beyond the margin - to be corrected by the "rules". In simple words - the rule as it is now is more of a hurdle than of any help.

In conclusion, i would just suggest invalidating the times infringing the rule, coming last in the pre qual order - filling up the remains of the spaces and enjoying the full grid in the race.

After all, this is pre qual, we run a more relaxed session (reset,spec,pit).

That is what I have been trying to day. Thanks!

To be honest, I do not think anyone would even mention it. If some had protested it, sure.
But I am not saying I did not make a mistake. I did. What I am complaining about is the extremely harsh penalty we got from this. I still fail to see how what I did was THAT bad. I am put in the same boat as a cheater. This is what I mean about politics. The harsh penalty we got for doing something that didnt hurt anyone.

I cannot see how this mistake is anywhere close to the penalty applied. Its not like it will harm anyone. We have a map on LFS, we know where all cars are. I am not saying what I did should be legal, I am saying the penalty is out of porportions.

Please re-read my post.
A pre-qual is not a qual, or a race. Really.
A DSQ is way top harsh for such a thing in a session like that, that had no impact on others.

Please make sure the rules are more related to the racing itself, and not politics/administrative stuff, as to what just happen in GT1WS in my opinion.

I would rather have serious things looked at, rather than meaningless things such as the pre-qual in GT1WS have become a victim of.

If things gets too strict and the rules are more of a pain, it will kill the fun.
I would rather have more attention and focus to the driving standards that affects others (either by gaining an unfair advantage, or by causing problems for someone else). An example: I would really really hate if any of my competitors were not allowed to race because they did not have the skin right.

If we get to that point, it is not fun anymore.

Quote from dekojester :

The point about money is about how much time it would take to do some of the other penalties suggested, which means that I would spend my entire life for a week dealing with preQ in addition to my other jobs. It's a point as to the trade off and where the effort becomes more than the fun intended for the effort I already put in.

You are allowed a small allowance for wrong-way driving as part of recovering from a spin. Forcing yourself to spin exiting the pits would generally mean we would allow you the room it would take to do a U-Turn to head back into the pitlane.

If you only investigate protested episodes, this would not take much time at all. How many protests are there in a pre-qual? I would bet quite few, if any.

Quote :

Anyone trying to exit through the entry is doing so to GAIN TIME. Even if it's just to start the lap quicker, it's still gaining time by circumventing the rules, which is cheating and unsporting.

Yeah, because it is so much fun driving out of pit lane. I did not this to GAIN TIME, I did it to SAVE TIME. We have "unlimited time" in a pre-qualifying session. I really fail to see how this is relevant or any advantage in that manner, sorry.

Quote :

I know you race in real life, so I expect you to have a better sense of what proper racing conduct is, but you are not showing that.

Excuse me? To make it clear, I was always aware of where anyone were at the track. I never left the pit the wrong way if I had any chance of even being seen by a driver starting or finishing their lap. I had no intentions to disturb or screw up for someone else. Neither did I. I cannot see that what I did was a break of proper racing conduct, really. In real life, the admins would not disqualify me for the whole race if I crossed the blend-line at the pit-exit in practice, and remind all drivers before qualifying that it is not allowed, even when it is clearly stated in the rules before-hand (and this even has a safety aspect, something we do not need to consider in LFS). Not that I have done it... but I know many who has. Same thing should have been applied here. If someone did it in the real qual, sure. If someone did in pre-qual, remind all drivers that it is not allowed before qual, when everyone is on the server. If someone does it in pre-qual and creates a crash/it is being protested, sure, apply a penalty.

Thats my suggestion.

Quote :

If you're the only one on track, should I let you get away with using a speedhack, or using a clutch macro, or any other unorthodox method to circumvent the allowed things?

Again, I cannot see how you can compare these things. They are totally unrelated. What I and others did, was by no way an attempt to cheat (as in gaining an unfair advantage). Comparing this to using a speedhack, is to go way too far. The rule is there to prevent crashes, not to avoid people gaining an unfair advantage.

Quote :

It was advertised before the Pre-Qualifying started that you were not to go the wrong way exiting the pitlane, else you would be excluded from the session. If you, or anyone felt that that penalty was too harsh, the time to complain was begun as soon as that was posted for this round, or in the previous races where we've had that in place for Westhill. Complaining after it affects your team comes off as trite, and trying to be exempt from the rules because you were alone on course.

Sorry, I missed this. I made a mistake, I agree. I usually always read the full rules before a race, but a pre-qual should be fairly straight forward. Set a time and do not **** up for others. I know I am not the only one who has done a minor mistake, even with texts having been posted. I know this is not fair, but since you brought up the racing driver argument, I'll go with this. Remember BL1? Even though you were told the grid was wrong, it still went on that way (even though it was corrected during a later SC). What would your penalty be? A fine? That would have been just as stupid.


Thats my cents. This seems more like politics and administrative stuff rather than racing. I play LFS for fun and things like these can really kill it in my opinion.

Last edited by Tomhah, Fri, 11 Jan 2013 01:21.

Please read my suggestion about protesting.

Right, so now I am a cheater and what I did was as bad as using a speed-hack. Yeah, maybe I'll try that next time.
Come on, this is way out of proportions.

Why should he? Cant we just protest someone if someone has done anything stupid in pre-qual?
I mean... its pre-qual. If you remove my fastest lap, sure. But DSQ... its stupid, really.

Quote from dekojester :

Please tell me then why wrong-way driving should not be a session DQ.

Please tell me then when you'll give me the money I need to make this a full-time job so I can spend the time it would take to do some of the things suggested other than a simple DQ from the entire session for driving the wrong way.

Please tell me what the definition of "affecting a single person" should be. Is it 500 meters? 5000 meters? Half a lap? 5 cars in server? 20 cars in server? Ambiguity kills rules, and is what gives lawyers their ability to make their money.

The point is, you are in an official session during the Pre-Qualifying, you must abide by the rules, which even the sporting code says you must not drive counter to the direction of the course without admin permission. What is to say that if you have the clearance that might be given in the case of there's only one car half a track away, but your LFS minimizes to desktop, and by the time you recover you're stopped or slow on track when they come to complete their lap, what should be the penalty then?

Welcome to the world of rules making.

Why should I give you money? I will never give you that money, and neither do I care. You do this for fun, just as I do. You're not a god.

The fact that no one even saw it while driving. No one noticed. Thats how it didnt affect anyone. None was complaining, none saw it, none had to even think about it. Thats how it didnt affect anyone. I didnt crash anyone out by doing it. I didnt block anyone. I wasnt dragging anyones attention. Thats how it didnt affect anyone. I'd like to turn the question around. HOW DID IT AFFECT ANYONE?

Right, if thats how you're going at it, then what if you spin? Are you not allowed to do so even if you spin? If that is what you are suggesting. I could of just "spun" out of the pit. identically the wrong way. Yes, thats what happend.

Please tell me how not affecting anyones pre-qual is worthy a DSQ. I would assume crashing someone in a race is worse than driving the wrong way out of pits affecting no one for 5 meters, just like if you had spun.

Just please, Deko. This is stupid, and you know it.

Great, just ****ing great.

I admit I made the mistake, but its just way too harsh in my opinion. I really didnt even think of it when I did it. My main goal was: Put in a decent lap as quick as ****, and get back to work.

It didnt affect a single soul, but I guess rules are rules. I admit I screwed up by not reading PMs etc properly, but it has been an insane week at work and I was lucky enough to have time to put a few laps in at some point.

This is the reason why I stopped sim-racing. Idiotic rules in my opinion, when it does not affect a single person. Its just there to avoid carnage or to look "real". If I caused carnage, sure, punish me. But there was only two or three people at the server at the time. It had no affect what-so-ever.

Oh well, rant over. Good luck.

Last edited by Tomhah, Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:55.

What? 06 won pre-qual.
You have edited our confirmation and said we did not pre-qual. That is not the case. Look at the screenshots in the post above. 06 was at the top.

teamName: Team Rock Racing
class: GT1-Pro
car: XRR
number: 06
drivers:
- {Tomhah, Tommy Østgaard, Norway}
- {henqqa, Henri Tanskanen, Finland}
- {Masterboy19660815, Thorsten Ulrich, Germany}
- {Yuusei, Joe Letteriello, USA}

DID NOT PRE-QUALIFY

Strong start to the new year




We are proud to welcome four new members to Team Rock Racing. It may not come as a surprise, as we have had a great time together before and lately. We are all happy to take it to the next step and having these fantastic friends, Jonne, Henri, Nicholas and Thorsten joining the team.

Jonne Hannula (diitseipoika) is 16 years old and come from Finland. Jonne’s great personality is something we are very happy to have in the team. Besides doing sim-racing with us, he is also playing Football and spending time with his girlfriend. He is happy to join TRR as his first team on Live for Speed, as we apparently are both funny and friendly

Henri Tanskanen (henqqa) is another 16 years old Finn. Henri is a real multi-talent, and apart from doing sim-racing, he is playing bass, and enjoying skiing in the winter as well. Henri is joining us with the intention of growing and developing as a driver in a fun place, and we are eager to work together and see what we can achieve.

Our old friend, Thorsten Ulrich (Masterboy19660815) returns to our team after having left us for forming Team 6th Gear Racing with some friends of his in 2011. Thorsten likes how the team have progressed, and is having some close friends in the team. Thorsten is also an experienced RC Car racer, and is otherwise having a great time with his friends. We are looking forward to see how Thorsten can do in leagues, representing Team Rock Racing.

Another former member, Nicholas Leslie Zawadi Wrage (Niggo) is also returning after his last stay in 2011. Nicholas comes is also coming back to us after his period in Team 6th Gear Racing. We are very happy to have the funny German with us again, and are looking forward to some great times ahead. Nicholas satisfy the very personal relationship between the members in the team, and is happy to be back now that we are more involved in racing than last time he was here. Nicholas is another musician and is playing guitar, but is also interested in biology and gaming.

“I am really happy that all four wanted to join our team. They fit perfectly into the team; we have had some fun times together. These guys will also strengthen our team in the top leagues, so I am really looking forward to get on with it. Welcome, guys!”, says our manager, Tommy Østgaard.

We wish you a huge welcome, and hope you will enjoy your time here!

Last edited by Tomhah, Sun, 6 Jan 2013 18:58.

Read it and fully agrees.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Yes broadcasts were advanced from the overlays. Finding out how to do those in GT2WS was more rewarding than I could have imagined. And now Boothy and Deko have worked out a way to use the tracker on screen live (the ticker up top).

However, this isn't really what Deko is speaking about. Media coverage of the series was much bigger back then. There were preview and review videos of race and qualifying, there were team videos (commercials), series videos (commercials), there were many more team articles. It was much more than "just a broadcast" like we have now. Sure that broadcast is better, but the entire media coverage is considerably down in comparison. Most (if not all) of those things were produced from people outside the league admins and broadcast crew (which anymore is the same people).

And replays of accidents is easily possible, it is just a complete pain. I found an easy way to do overlays, I want someone else to produce an easier way of using replays.

I agree with you too. I was actually doing replays in the Kyoto 250 that I broadcasted a year, but it was by far a good method. Basically had LFS running on another computer with access to the streaming LFS' mpr folder through the local network. Then just loaded up the temp_mpr, put it where I wanted to, started it and showed some transition-effect between the two.

But it takes some time, and when you need to take care of the main stream and all at the same time, it is hard to do. So it is by far a good way, but it works! :P

In my opinion, NetKar Pro has the best physics at least in the Formula cars I've tried, compared to the formula cars in LFS. But its a shame most of the tracks (that you download) are very bad and outdated. The Formula Renault in NetKar Pro feels quite like the real one. The FOX simply doesnt

Otherwise though, in general, I still stick to LFS, but I also use NetKar Pro when preparing for in real life races, as long as it has some decent version of the tracks I will race at in real life.

But LFS is in my opinion the best total sim out there. The physics are good - but it needs the new tyre physics. The feel you get in LFS is just... natural. It feels good. But those tires needs to be worked at, and well... they are! With the new tire physics and some new, updated tracks and cars, I am sure LFS will really show that its the best sim out there. We'll have to wait... and wait... and wait... and wait... and... (guess what!) wait... to see when it comes out, if it ever does! But if it does, I am almost sure it will be fantastic.