What I'm trying to preach (or was it not preach?) about smoother and smaller inputs is you can't saw at the wheel in the mazda. If you just put the wheel 1/2 way between and held it there you would have gathered it back up and you wouldn't have snapped the other way. Also you'll save it just about every time if you breath the throttle a bit when you get sideways like that. If you go to 3/4 throttle for a split second it is 100% easier to catch, and you'll catch it sooner.

You made 3 large sawing motions, two big ones to the left, steered right a bit, then another big one as you were regaining grip which sent you flying away. I'm not saying it would happen in real life necessarily, but if you compare your steering input to the real footage there is quite a difference.

I'm not sure if you were trying to spin or legitimately trying to save it there so it might be a bad video to try and pick apart.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Nah Dave, here's what I see:

Initial over steer, heavily but somewhat appropriately dealt with. The problem comes at 37 seconds. The car was settled enough to just drive out; although you didn't seem to agree and countersteered 90 DEG to the left. This was WAY to much for the attitude of the car. You picked up that it was listening to you and by 38 seconds were steering 90 DEG RIGHT. The car listened again and started to lose it and then by second 39 you had about 165 DEG LEFT countersteer, but the car had enough of you by then and said piss on it.

Watch closely - and compare it to the solstice drifting video I posted before - your inputs and the car's response are exactly what he did to initiate drifts in the solstice, you just happened to do it on corner exit instead of entry .

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Not in the slightest, the input that initiated that slide should never have happened; it's what caused it.

As much as I find your description about the car listening to me pure brilliant, I'm gonna have to completely disagree again. If you look at the attached screenshot, you can see that the car is yawing once again to the right. Look at the aerial on the front compared to the buildings. If I hadn't countersteered 36.5 seconds in, I'd have just span to the right.

Quote from spanks :

I'm not sure if you were trying to spin or legitimately trying to save it there so it might be a bad video to try and pick apart.

I was most definately trying to save the slide, not purposely spin out. I had several attempts previous where it didn't snap on me, and some where it snapped instantly, but in each one I was trying to get through the corner at the limit.

Here's how I'd expect the Mazda to react. At 37 seconds in, I'd expect the car to react to my countersteering, but allow me enough time to straighten out the wheel as it's doing so, and I'd carry on. That's how countsteering normally works, you steer into the slide, the car responds, and you straighten the steering in time to carry on going forwards. In the Mazda you literally have no time at all to do this, and that's the problem I have with it.

Edit: FWIW my optimal is currently 1:04.4xx, but since I can't have any confidence that the car is not going to throw me off the track if I drive the way I want, I can't string a whole lap together at that speed.

down to a 105.5, only .15 off my optimal. I probably have quite a bit left if I kept pushing...and did about 100 more laps. I usually set my optimal really low while crashing repeatedly and then creep up on it, this time I put some really nice laps together back to back. If I started now with my repeated crashing I'd probably chip away at the optimal and figure more stuff out.

I've only done about 20 laps atm and have no plans to race, so I guess I'm done

Quote from DaveWS :

At 37 seconds in, I'd expect the car to react to my countersteering, but allow me enough time to straighten

The car disagrees with you... You just need to figure out why.

Clearly the front of the car had more grip at 37 seconds. Perhaps in the last shot on your screenshots, if you were at maybe 30 degrees lock instead of 120, the tears taps would've stayed turned off? I'm willing to bet you could dial the alleged characteristic out of the car with the setup (but I bet you'd be compromising).

Quote :

In the Mazda you literally have no time at all to do this, and that's the problem I have with it.

I bet the car feels the same way about you! Cut er some slack, no more hamfisted see sawing

Quote :

Edit: FWIW my optimal is currently 1:04.4xx, but since I can't have any confidence that the car is not going to throw me off the track if I drive the way I want, I can't string a whole lap together at that speed.

Heh - don't think I'm saying you're not a good driver, I know you're a good driver. And I appreciate debates like this with a fellow who's posting videos and screen shots... makes the conversation much less arbitrary.

To me you are over correcting at 37 seconds.

Just some background info... people complained about the FM being hard to control like 3 seasons ago, and the devs made it incredibly easier to drive. And now it seems so fast and easy that snap oversteer happens more.

I'll just have to learn to cope with how it is and deal with it I guess, nothing more to say.

Edit: Missed this before -

Quote from spanks :

Dave I'm curious how much FFB you're using with your wheel.

I use 115% in Logitech (103% in LFS) because I remember someone saying using a value like this gives you more caster feedback while not making the wheel go mental over bumps, and 6 in game with the Mazda. Any higher and the forces are clipped by the electronics.

I don't know about you guys, but I have seemed to have learned some bad habits from LFS due to it's flat surfaces and a bit too forgiving physics. When I get away from those habits is when I seem to perform best in iRacing.

Am I crazy, or is this normal?

Quote from PMD9409 :

Am I crazy

Yes.

Quote :

is this normal?

Yes.

iRacing's tracks and tyre physics (which feel pretty good to me, I think the car mechanics are the issue) together with LFS's car mechanics, and I'd be in heaven. I hate going back to LFS's sterile, flat tracks after iRacing sometimes.

I think the brakes are wuite bad, maybe now with the DFP pedals (not tried with G25)

Feels like its on rails too much, like there 1 racing line, go off that and you just understeer/oversteer on rails too much for me, LFS feels more raw and you can experiment a little, theres not that much time difference in hotlaps from iracing, thats because everyone drives the same line and drives the car the same, because they make you drive like that.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Nah you can correct it, you just have to be real fast, accurate, and a bit preemptive sometimes - just like RL. in LFS you can sort of think about what you're going to do whilst at 90 degrees to the road, then slowly and lazily make some corrections which always seem to work.

True. Last weekend at my karting race, my coach was telling me about how I would hop over one particular curb, get airborne by about an inch and a half, and then have the wheels pointed for countersteer before I even hit the ground. As soon as my front wheels touched the ground I would unwind, and that tiny little fraction of a flick would stop a massive slide from ever happening during that corner. It won me the race.

Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to do that in sims, because you can't feel the split-second jiggles and bumps that tell your butt what's coming up. You gotta do it all through your hands and your eyes, and that takes just a fraction longer, and in a real tight car that might as well be death.

This thread really makes me want to get iRacing. I was watching some of that guy Greger Huttu's replays. That dude's unreal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... qOrDc&feature=related

Point proved me thinks...

Quote from PMD9409 :

Just some background info... people complained about the FM being hard to control like 3 seasons ago, and the devs made it incredibly easier to drive. And now it seems so fast and easy that snap oversteer happens more.

It was difficult to drive, that doesn't mean it was better. I really hated that wishy-washy steering, my old setups are dialed into massive entry oversteer to compensave for that weird rubberband pull towards outside after initial turn-in.

Quote from PMD9409 :

I don't know about you guys, but I have seemed to have learned some bad habits from LFS due to it's flat surfaces and a bit too forgiving physics. When I get away from those habits is when I seem to perform best in iRacing.

Agreed. The surfaces are a major factor to be honest. There's aspects I really like better about LFS, but I can't really make it my mainstay right now because of the sterilized experience it generates for me.

That combined with the outer-space setup options and ranges make it really less realistic than the model truthfully would allow it to be. That's a bit annoying; knowing that if you do things in a realistic fashion that you're punished... Sure it simulates theoretical possibilities well, but that just doesn't relate the image it projects well over top of real life which is a bit odd for a racing sim (to me...)

On the other hand, iRacing, despite it's flaws so far is much more intuitive to drive for me because it behaves exactly as I would expect. Dave will disagree but that his right, even he's wrong...

Quote :

Am I crazy, or is this normal?

Mutually exclusive questions from my understanding....

Quote from MadCat360 :

...that tiny little fraction of a flick would stop a massive slide from ever happening during that corner. It won me the race....Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to do that in sims, because you can't feel the split-second jiggles and bumps that tell your butt what's coming up....

Exactly.

Watching Dave's video; the real life portion looks almost odd because the driver is reacting before you see what he's reacting to on the video. In the iRacing clips it is mostly the opposite.

I would imagine that in a sim you can get to know the car/track well enough that you could probably approach that kind of thing with a degree of accuracy, but it'll never be the same obviously. It probably balances out the fact that you'll do crazy shit that you'd likely never have the balls to try in real life simply because it doesn't seem anywhere near as insane in a sim.

Quote :

This thread really makes me want to get iRacing. I was watching some of that guy Greger Huttu's replays. That dude's unreal.

You won't regret it. First thing to do is just do a month and see how you feel about it. (so to speak :razz

I'm going to sit on the fence with this one Dave

On one hand the Mazda does seem wrong to me as well... far too over-sensitive to steering input and behaves like shit on curbs (along with a few of the other iRacing cars) , so i do think there definitely are some flaws with the iRacing physics.

On the other hand i remember you having exactly the same problem with the F2000(or was it the FTarget?) in nKPRo, that none of the drivers that had driven it for a while had. Another high end sims Single Seater.

That makes me think you've spent too much time with LFS' over forgiving cars that let you get away with murder, thinking that is correct.

Which sims have it right, and which have it wrong is a debate that no one will ever agree on, but I'm of the opinion that iRacing and nKPro have it more right than LFS, but still not right enough for my liking


Whatever... your a top driver and you will adapt, as all good drivers do

Quote from Crommi :

It was difficult to drive, that doesn't mean it was better. I really hated that wishy-washy steering, my old setups are dialed into massive entry oversteer to compensave for that weird rubberband pull towards outside after initial turn-in.

Never really said it was better.

People are going to push all the cars to the limit to where it is literally unrealistic, that was the point I was trying to make.

@Pearcy: You showed a video of 2 of the best in the sim, so of course there lines would be the optimal line (and the same). I never seem to run the same line as everyone else, but once again that might only be me.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

You won't regret it. First thing to do is just do a month and see how you feel about it. (so to speak :razz

@MadCat360

I'd actually advise you to do 3 months rather than one to begin with. You will get a much better picture of how you feel about it once the "New toy syndrome" wears off.

You wouldn't be the first person to go "Wow, this is the greatest thing ever" and spend a load of cash on content...only to realise a month or two down the line that it's not actually all it's cracked up to be, and sadly lacking in many areas currently.

I always hated people who said "it's not for everyone" But that statement is actually very true indeed.

Give it a try, don't jump in feet first with a years subs, but give it more than a month to really see how you really feel before you start spending on content.

this is what I am going to do tomorrow, the 3 month subscription. TBH with hours I work...its doubtful I can spend much time on it...and it seems like you need hours on it to progress....but we'll see.

Quote from The Moose :

@MadCat360

I'd actually advise you to do 3 months rather than one to begin with. You will get a much better picture of how you feel about it once the "New toy syndrome" wears off.

You wouldn't be the first person to go "Wow, this is the greatest thing ever" and spend a load of cash on content...only to realise a month or two down the line that it's not actually all it's cracked up to be, and sadly lacking in many areas currently.

I always hated people who said "it's not for everyone" But that statement is actually very true indeed.

Give it a try, don't jump in feet first with a years subs, but give it more than a month to really see how you really feel before you start spending on content.

That's good stuff, thanks for that. As soon as my Fanatec gets here and I've settled in with it I'll pick up a "trial" sub. Plus I'm looking at doing Skip Barber next year, so the added track time the sim will allow me will be worth it, even if it's not 100% accurate.

Quote from MadCat360 :

That's good stuff, thanks for that. As soon as my Fanatec gets here and I've settled in with it I'll pick up a "trial" sub. Plus I'm looking at doing Skip Barber next year, so the added track time the sim will allow me will be worth it, even if it's not 100% accurate.

You'll love the Skippy in iRacing i suspect...apart from the arcade shifting technique (sadly the same for all the cars in iRacing.. they haven't even attempted to do transmission modelling.. and coming from LFS and netKar that's a massive turnoff for me) As far as I'm concerned, the Skippy is the best car in the sim... The physics are excellent, the thing is a dream to drive.

I'll surely miss it once my subs run out in August. That car and the tracks are really top quality. Unfortunately one car and the tracks isn't enough to tempt me back for a while.

Best of luck with the real thing. I will be interested to hear your comments on the accuracy of the iRacing version.

How can you even consider leaving right as the lotus and corvette come aghhhh

mine runs out august 29th as well, and money is tight... Plus my wheel is giving me some problems.

Quote from spanks :

How can you even consider leaving right as the lotus and corvette come aghhhh

Very easily. It wasn't a hard decision to quit at all. iRacing aint all that tbh. I'm over the "new toy" phase. Reality has set in.

No transmission modelling takes away 1/3 of the driving experience for a start. It really is bugging me beyond belief that it's not even on iRacings radar. Wheres the fun in driving a classic F1 car while keeping your foot to the floor and flatshifting. No skill in downshifts whatsoever. Simulation? my arse.

I jumped in the FF1600 in nKPro yesterday for the first time in months. To start with i couldn't change gear at all...just couldn't time it right, completely messed up my downshifts and span a lot. iRacing had got me into bad habits.
After an hour or so it was all coming back..i had to actually drive the car! It was a thoroughly satisfying experience, which made me realise finally that i wont miss iRacing much at all. I prefer my sims to actually attempt to simulate the cars

No point having those cars and wonderful tracks if you hardly ever get to use them either.

I'll be back when the core simulation is being improved, rather than them just milking the content cash cow. Oh... and when there are servers that we can actually enjoy using our content on.

There's a rapidly growing thread in the England section of the forums with more people..long time and short time customers, that are voting with their wallets and not re-subbing either. It's a real shame and i will miss it initially, but there's just not enough substance to iRacing.

I'll have forgotten all about it once I'm back racing hard in leagues and having fun with friends again in netKar and rFactor HistorX. I truly wont feel like I'm loosing out. (apart from a slight twinge about the lovely tracks, which if we're honest,are the only truly outstanding feature of the sim )

Quote from The Moose :

No transmission modelling takes away 1/3 of the driving experience for a start. It really is bugging me beyond belief that it's not even on iRacings radar.

It's definitely on their radar, but it'll probably take at least one more season before any major changes. Tim Wheatley said this yesterday: "Transmission and drivetrain will be worked on considerably, to the point where you can damage them or lose time/speed by doing things in an incorrect manner. Those items have not been implemented yet, however."

Quote from The Moose :

You'll love the Skippy in iRacing i suspect...apart from the arcade shifting technique (sadly the same for all the cars in iRacing.. they haven't even attempted to do transmission modelling.. and coming from LFS and netKar that's a massive turnoff for me) As far as I'm concerned, the Skippy is the best car in the sim... The physics are excellent, the thing is a dream to drive.

I'll surely miss it once my subs run out in August. That car and the tracks are really top quality. Unfortunately one car and the tracks isn't enough to tempt me back for a while.

Best of luck with the real thing. I will be interested to hear your comments on the accuracy of the iRacing version.

What is wrong with iRacing's transmissions? Does it not have a clutch or something?

I don't know if I'll be doing the MX5s or the F2000s at Skip Barber. Still deciding. The F2000s are kinda in the wrong direction for me, I want to race sports cars, but its got a bigger prize (350k versus 70k for the MX5s).