DWB I do not assume everyone from other cultures is bad. In fact, I think America should be more of a republic (small 'r'). Republics mind their own business. Their governments have very limited powers, and their people are too busy practicing self-government to worry about problems in other countries. I honestly don't think we should have to deal with accommodating other cultures, if they want to live in the US (or Europe) they should accommodate to their host country and the culture and traditions of the majority. Its like having a house guest that refuses to eat what you cook him, its offensive.

My problem with multiculturalism is not based in hatred. The fact is, the minority groups who are moving into Western countries will not ever assimilate fully into the majority culture. They will never give up their incompatible traditions and values while westerners are more than happy to give up our beliefs that are incompatible with theirs (called political correctness). Diversity without assimilation to the majority culture will always cause divisiveness, anathema to the healthy function of society

Quote from flymike91 :

DWB I do not assume everyone from other cultures is bad. In fact, I think America should be more of a republic (small 'r'). Republics mind their own business. Their governments have very limited powers, and their people are too busy practicing self-government to worry about problems in other countries. I honestly don't think we should have to deal with accommodating other cultures, if they want to live in the US (or Europe) they should accommodate to their host country and the culture and traditions of the majority. Its like having a house guest that refuses to eat what you cook him, its offensive.

My problem with multiculturalism is not based in hatred. The fact is, the minority groups who are moving into Western countries will not ever assimilate fully into the majority culture. They will never give up their incompatible traditions and values while westerners are more than happy to give up our beliefs that are incompatible with theirs (called political correctness). Diversity without assimilation to the majority culture will always cause divisiveness, anathema to the healthy function of society

As others have said, the USA is a country built on multiculturalism. Our "monoculture" is essentially a group of disparate subcultures that have been squashed together through time.

The country was originally inhabited by the Native Americans, who were mostly slaughtered by the English, Dutch, and French (there's some early European multiculturalism right there), but some of them remained and intermarried. Slavery brought over millions from Africa. Then the 1800s saw a huge influx of immigrants from all over Europe, including Ireland, Sweden, Germany, Poland, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, etc. Chinese were brought over by the boatload to build our transportation infrastructure. None of these cultures were homogenous, but they melted together over here and created what today passes for the "American people." Different communities kept different traditions from their homelands, but together they created a bigger ur-culture. Waves of immigrants have never stopped coming. The recent influx from Central and South America, India, and the Middle East are really no different than previous groups. They're just new and strange to you and haven't yet become fully part of the American landscape.

Your rude houseguest metaphor is utter bullshit. America is full of regional differences, and the differences in those regions are largely predicated on which people settled there. Compare the upper midwest (Minnesota, etc) to South Carolina, or to Texas, and tell me their culture is indistinguishable. Anyway, if you have a houseguest who is a vegetarian, you don't shove a steak at him unless you're a huge ****.

I'll ask you again: which beliefs have you given up to make room for the latest immigrants? Which ones do you think I have given up?

In conclusion, you're an idiot. America is a paragon of multiculturalism and has always been so. Your "most technically advanced, safest and most free society in the world" is made up of people from all the **** over the world. Deal with it.

Anyway, I'm done with this argument, and I'm sorry to all the Norwegians here. I don't mean to confirm the stereotype of Americans always making every argument about themselves. I just find it hard to stand by and let morons run their ill-informed mouths.

I'm not going to apologize to you for defending myself. But I'm also not going to stoop to your level of personal attacks. I'm only sorry you can't keep your temper down enough to engage in a discussion on a purely rational level.

I'm out.

Quote from flymike91 :

Diversity without assimilation to the majority culture will always cause divisiveness, anathema to the healthy function of society

If you're ever up my way, visit Dearborn, MI. It's a great place, known for a huge Muslim population. They make some killer food in downtown, even if you can't read the signs or know what you're eating. I love it there specifically because it's different. I don't want everyone to be the same, that would bore the hell out of me.

Oh, and it's a very well kept place, and most of the people who live there have good jobs and definitely contribute to the society in a meaningful way.

Actually, I do wonder. Forums are raceless places, because we all hide behind avatars. I wonder who he's not-so-indirectly insulting right now, without even knowing it.

Quote from DWB :

Compare the upper midwest (Minnesota, etc) to South Carolina, or to Texas, and tell me their culture is indistinguishable

It's not. Actually very, very noticeably different when I go between Michigan and Georgia. USA's far too big to only have one culture.

My deepest condolences to the Norwegian people for this disgusting crime and my deepest respect for anyone concerned.

Ignoring our US membership who seems to believe ' It's all about us ....' the following may be interesting.

There are reports on the net, not on the mainstream media, suggesting that others may have been arrested, if so, welcome to the NZ experience.

Norway has been taking on a certain unnamed country, withdrawing funding and even suggesting bombing to object to their crimes against humanity.

Please do your own research.

The following facts are certainly interesting, strange how someone can change their facebook page after their arrest, maybe the Norwegians are very liberal in what mass murderers can do after their arrest ?

"Analyst Bob Chapman, a frequent Progressive Radio News Hour guest, believes Friday's attack was a false flag, citing two reasons:

-- pulling out of NATO's Libya coalition entirely by August 1; and

-- withholding its $42 million contribution to Greece's bailout, calling it a waste of money, sensibly saying the Papandreou government should default.

As a result, Chapman said affected banks "are very unhappy with Norway, and I think that (and pulling out of Libya) was the basis for the attack," adding:

Breivik "at the island was probably there to kill (Labour Party) prime minister (Jens Stoltenberg) who (wasn't at Utoeya island) for some reason. The message to Norway is do what we tell you to do or we'll put a bomb in the middle of your city (as) payback from the banks...."

On July 25, another article headlined, "Anders Behring Breivik: Manufacturing a Patsy?" noting two different Facebook profiles (before and after July 22) describing him, saying:

"The first one in Norwegian was deleted minutes after (his) identity became public." A doctored English version replaced it, changing his profile to fit the crime.

His stated "interest in Winston Churchill and (anti-Nazi resistance) leader Max Manus" was deleted. In addition, his Internet postings "characterize himself not as a populist Christian conservative, but as a neo-con" pro-Israeli supporter.

Moreover, the Council of Conservative Citizens said none of his postings "are extreme or hint at a desire to commit violence." He did say he supported "Hans Rustad, a former Jewish left-winger turned neo-conservative."

The doctored Facebook profile turned a "socially liberal, pro-Israeli neo-con (into) a Christian conservative, white supremacist." Friends also contradict the new Breivik characterization, Ulav Andersson telling Russia Today, it's not at all the man he knows, saying his racial antipathies were expressed in "mundane" mild terms, adding:

He wasn't opinionated, and "never came across as some kind of religious fanatic or anything." In fact, he had no defined ideology.

As the old US "To Tell the Truth" TV show used to ask: "Will the real Anders Breivik please stand up?" In fact, he did, but the tape showing it was deleted, replaced by a doctored one, conforming to how Western powers wish to portray him. Perhaps his manifesto was then altered."
http://www.rense.com/general94/oslo2.htm

http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/ ... i-connection-to-oslo.html

more on topic, what do I have to do to land myself in a Norweigan prison? this place is nicer than my house...

http://www.time.com/time/photo ... y/0,29307,1989083,00.html

RacerX

"He wasn't opinionated, and "never came across as some kind of religious fanatic or anything." In fact, he had no defined ideology."

He felt strongly enough about something to then commit the worst human massacre in recent history. Whatever his writings were, they pale in comparison to what he's done.


flymike91

Quote :

I'm out.

On a rational level, DWB's history of events is unarguable. It's pretty clear that America as you refer to it, there never was a time when multiculturalism wasn't part of the mix. What you seem to be arguing for is something both impossible, and reasonably unimaginable. You have a nostalgia for something that never was. What would a purely 'European' America look like? Neither of us have any idea. It never happened, and probably never will happen. You grew up in a multicultural society- you don't 'know' any other way.

Fully agree, I can't explain his behaviour or why he chose to carry out those murders.
What I'm reporting is how he had previously appeared to those around him as stated by them and how his facebook page changed.
I feel his behaviour is totaly disgusting and I'm very impressed by the Norwegian reaction to his hearing.

Again I'd like to express my deepest regret at these murders.

@ racer X nz


so if I understand you correctly you think the whole massacre was staged and Anders was placed in it, with his public image altered to fit the conservative, white supremacist? All that to cover up some questionable political decisions?



I guess you believe in a Illuminati lead world order, staged moon landing and world ending in 2012 too....

Quote from RiseAgainstMe! :

more on topic, what do I have to do to land myself in a Norweigan prison? this place is nicer than my house...

http://www.time.com/time/photo ... y/0,29307,1989083,00.html

U jelly? I'm jelly.

Quote from ACCAkut :

staged moon landing and world ending in 2012 ....

Wait... that's not true/happening?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Aka trolling.

AKA, inviting people to use their brain and not follow trend of news corps and high school fashion.

What has happened to this topic?

I was reading this to get informed about the latest news on this drama. Not some cultural difference fight...

Could we please behave like grownups and start posting things that really matter?

Quote from Vinnylegends :

What has happened to this topic?

I was reading this to get informed about the latest news on this drama. Not some cultural difference fight...

Could we please behave like grownups and start posting things that really matter?

It's called a discussion, or maybe it's the argument clinic - if you want news go to a news website and not a forum. Much better than endless and meaningless "RIP" etc from people on youbook, facetube and twatter...

Quote from flymike91 :

DWB I do not assume everyone from other cultures is bad. In fact, I think America should be more of a republic (small 'r'). Republics mind their own business. Their governments have very limited powers, and their people are too busy practicing self-government to worry about problems in other countries. I honestly don't think we should have to deal with accommodating other cultures, if they want to live in the US (or Europe) they should accommodate to their host country and the culture and traditions of the majority. Its like having a house guest that refuses to eat what you cook him, its offensive.

My problem with multiculturalism is not based in hatred. The fact is, the minority groups who are moving into Western countries will not ever assimilate fully into the majority culture. They will never give up their incompatible traditions and values while westerners are more than happy to give up our beliefs that are incompatible with theirs (called political correctness). Diversity without assimilation to the majority culture will always cause divisiveness, anathema to the healthy function of society

I don't get the pessimism.

I live in Hong Kong, a perfectly multicultural place, here we live in western houses, celebrate chinese holidays, eat all kinds of food, we listen to bands from taiwan, japan and the west.

Sure not everyone follows the same stuff but why does it matter? What is the significance of a "majority culture" as culture is a constantly evolving and temporal thing? And What's bad with subcultures?

You view of culture is something owned by its creator and exclusive to them, however that is never true. Like Punk was a British thing, but if you go Beijing, Berlin, and Tokyo, you will find different alternation of the same root, carrying both the core value and local relevance, and that is the beauty of multiculturalism.

The only problem is with people being bothered by how they neighbor live their life, to a point of paranoia.....that is the problem, not culture itself.

This is the global age, think of the world as one big village and other culture as neighbors, if the idea of your neighbor being Muslim or Indian scares you, then you should really get to know them as a person, not just some stereotype.

And in this day and age, knowing a person across great distance has never been easier, you have the internet, use it. And I mean actual persons.

I have friends world wide, and to me they are not much different, everyone is looking at the bigger picture from their own window, some bigger, some smaller, but the common thing is we all value what each other brings...our point of view, our history, our influences.

Nothing is really incompatible, since deviation is the nature of normality.

I think the issue here, to get back to Brejvik (or whatever) is that muslims and other immigrants, kinda live a better life then Norwegians, they get a place to stay, a job, benefits, child benefits etc.. that's sounds great to me, but is it hurting the country and it's native citizens.. i don't know.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

I think the issue here, to get back to Brejvik (or whatever) is that muslims and other immigrants, kinda live a better life then Norwegians, they get a place to stay, a job, benefits, child benefits etc.. that's sounds great to me, but is it hurting the country and it's native citizens.. i don't know.

You aren't allowed to say that in the current society, it's uncool to care more for your own people than others who are door stopping.

Quote from flymike91 :

I'm not going to apologize to you for defending myself. But I'm also not going to stoop to your level of personal attacks. I'm only sorry you can't keep your temper down enough to engage in a discussion on a purely rational level.

I'm out.

Actually i think Ben wasn't engaging personal attack, he's just trying to brust that little bubble you live in, and get your feet back down on earth, since you stubbornly refuse to do it in rational level. Also i have a feeling that he just said out what rest of us are thinking when reading your posts.

Quote from -NightFly- :

Actually i think Ben wasn't engaging personal attack, he's just trying to brust that little bubble you live in, and get your feet back down on earth, since you stubbornly refuse to do it in rational level. Also i have a feeling is that he just said out what rest of us are thinking when reading your posts.

The Truth.

It is a very simplified conclusion to link the state of the current society with the existence of multiple cultures.

There's no logical link suggesting that people become more insecure and distanced is a result of multiculturalism, you can blame that on the invention of internet, media with agenda, overpopulation and pretty much everything else....not even himself suggested any sort of solid link, I would love to hear about that.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

As others have said, the USA is a country built on multiculturalism. Our "monoculture" is essentially a group of disparate subcultures that have been squashed together through time.

Really???
I thought that to be USA citizen you have pass exam on constitution and English... you opress poor immigrants with your dominant law and language...

France lately forbade burkas. What would you say if a woman killed herself for being punished for wearing burka?

Quote from AndRand :

Really???
I thought that to be USA citizen you have pass exam on constitution and English... you opress poor immigrants with your dominant law and language...

France lately forbade burkas. What would you say if a woman killed herself for being punished for wearing burka?

The tests are pretty minimal. My buddy and his family lived here for a few years (from Mexico), and his mom was able to pass the tests when she got the chance. And it's tough for me to have a conversation with her in English. I speak better Spanish than she does English, so we get along in my questionable Spanish.

Quote :

Speaking Test
Your ability to speak English will be determined by a USCIS Officer during your eligibility interview on Form N-400, Application for Naturalization.

Reading Test
You must read one out of three sentences correctly to demonstrate an ability to read in English.

Writing Test
You must write one out of three sentences correctly to demonstrate an ability to write in English.

Civics Test
There are 100 civics questions on the naturalization test. During your naturalization interview, you will be asked up to 10 questions from the list of 100 questions. You must answer correctly at least six (6) of the 10 questions to pass the civics test.

You have two opportunities to take the English and civics tests per application. If you fail any portion of the test during your first interview, you will be retested on the portion of the test that you failed within 90 days.

Quote from AndRand :

Really???
I thought that to be USA citizen you have pass exam on constitution and English... you opress poor immigrants with your dominant law and language...

Yes, the citizenship test requires knowledge of the constitution and the English language. It doesn't require you to give up your beliefs or customs. I'm not sure what relevance it has.

Quote :

France lately forbade burkas. What would you say if a woman killed herself for being punished for wearing burka?

I don't agree with forbidding people from wearing traditional dress. I understand the tension between the host culture's idea of women's rights and the immigrant culture's idea of modest dress as a religious practice. However, I don't think you can enforce women's rights on people; you can only suggest it as a better alternative.

However, you can and should prosecute those who abuse women for failing to dress properly or whatever other reason. Regardless of their cultural beliefs, they're choosing to live in a country and must accept that they live under its laws.

Quote from BlueFlame :

You aren't allowed to say that in the current society, it's uncool to care more for your own people than others who are door stopping.

Oh you're allowed. You just look like a drooling idiot, because it's not true.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Yes, the citizenship test requires knowledge of the constitution and the English language. It doesn't require you to give up your beliefs or customs. I'm not sure what relevance it has.

That some want to live under their law. Which is part of their custom and belief.

Quote :

I don't agree with forbidding people from wearing traditional dress. I understand the tension between the host culture's idea of women's rights and the immigrant culture's idea of modest dress as a religious practice. However, I don't think you can enforce women's rights on people; you can only suggest it as a better alternative.

Wearing burka is against several laws - from security (you cant hide your face in public, many types of services, demonstrations) to road traffic. Although there was an exception in UK law for Pakis allowing them to wear a turban on motorcycle (originating from WW2 as privilege for Gurkhs) - well... today was a blast in Kandahar with bomb hidden in turban :/

Would you make such exception also for under-age poly-marriages? Also in their law, custom and belief.

We had interesting case in Poland: a woman was convinced that she can not be accused of corruption although she described in magazines it as a custom in her business. She got accusations (not persecution) presented and she killed herself when being seized. We have big martyrology here about that, I treat it as suicidal attack.

Quote from AndRand :

That some want to live under their law. Which is part of their custom and belief.

In the US and most other countries, law is related to geography. Immigrants should understand this.

Quote :

Wearing burka is against several laws - from security (you cant hide your face in public, many types of services, demonstrations) to road traffic. Although there was an exception in UK law for Pakis allowing them to wear a turban on motorcycle (originating from WW2 as privilege for Gurkhs) - well... today was a blast in Kandahar with bomb hidden in turban :/

Bombs can be hidden in all kinds of places (even body cavities). You're never going to stop all bombs, and legislating away certain types of clothing seems to be a particularly stupid way to try to stop it. As for hiding one's face in public... I can't really comment on that as I don't know the full context of the law. Over here people wear surgical masks all the time due to air quality or disease issues and no one bats an eye.

Quote :

Would you make such exception also for under-age poly-marriages? Also in their law, custom and belief.

The existing law in this country is quite clear re: age of consent, number of spouses, etc, as is the existing law in France and so on. The burka law is a NEW law specifically designed to target an immigrant population. It's not really the same thing at all.

Quote :

We had interesting case in Poland: a woman was convinced that she can not be accused of corruption although she described in magazines it as a custom in her business. She got accusations (not persecution) presented and she killed herself when being seized. We have big martyrology here about that, I treat it as suicidal attack.

Sounds like that woman was just stupid.