Quote from TagForce :

[totally offtopic mode]
Making really good quality videos will only be really possible with a system that has the ability to stop the playback and process each rendered frame in a non-realtime fashion. So that even the slowest of machines capable of running LFS can render movies at a full 29.97fps 768x525 NTSC DVD with everything turned to maximum eyecandy. It will also need to be able to grab the audio from the engine (so that it can perfectly sync audio to video).

I agree with you that such a thing would be really nice. But I think that for a somewhat long program (say, a half hour or hour of TV-like coverage) it's overkill. As long as the framerate can be kept over 30fps and there isn't a lot of "lag jumping" and warping in the replay, the video should be plenty good enough. I'm 90% positive that I could record good quality video on my home machine without a problem at the resolution you suggest. A hardware based capture card works wonders.

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If such a system is created, then adding a ticker (you're american and used to watching FOX and NBC broadcasts, aren't you? ) would be just a matter of creating a flexible add-on for the capture engine.

Actually, I mostly watch SPEED. They have a ticker on most of their race coverage including Speed GT, Speed Touring Car, American Le Mans, etc. It constantly scrolls the names and numbers of the cars along with their positions. It also has an indicator for when the track is under a full course caution, and it sometimes shows the leaders for each class in ALMS.

The rendering system you describe would be nice, but I think i'll be old and grey before we see such a thing. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to just render a ticker using data from the race. Then, that could be overlaid on the video using video editing tools, similar to what a real TV station might use.

I still contend that the really hard part is the camera work. A single race lap might take shots from half a dozen track cameras, a forward facing car camera, a rearward facing car camera, etc. Then there are cameras in the pits (not much to see in LFS at the moment in that regard) as well. Getting all of these shots in LFS is VERY time consuming. Hence, most of the LFS videos we currently see are either very, very short or they're longer, but taken from very few camera positions. Following a two car battle for the lead in LFS, over the course of a single lap, would take a long time. Doing it for a whole race, then adding in extra camera views, slo-mo replays of accidents, etc. is going to be a huge undertaking. I can see it taking months of production and some seriously good video editing tools just to cover a single 25 lap race in this "TV style". I'm VERY curious to see how STCC does their videos.

Quote from Becky Rose :

768x576 here, i'll do a letterbox version for you Yanks after ! I dont get the point though, I have all the eye candy on and record to a DVD recorder, then (I have to find a good app for this still) decode the vob files to avi and edit. Full eye candy and max quality. All I have to do is find said application and get my gold cables from my parents house before the first race.

Aye... But you only have 24fps... PAL.
There's actually more than one point.
1. Realtime camerachanges are a pain to do this way.
2. Not everyone is able to record in your way.
3. Even though it looks really good, it's still a conversion from a computer output to a TV system, and then back to computer again. Quality loss is impossible to overcome. What you encode and are stuck with are the colors that are sent to the TV system. You edit those (wrong) colors with all new computer graphics and re-encode that to another system. So there's 2 cycles where you lose quality. If you can grab and edit the 100% uncompressed full-size output from LFS there's only 1 encoding cycle.

If you have GPL or NASCAR Racing 2002 or 2003, try to find GPL2AVI and fool around with that for a bit. The system is sooo much better than Fraps or TV/Out recording.

But that's totally off-topic

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Actually, I mostly watch SPEED. They have a ticker on most of their race coverage including Speed GT, Speed Touring Car, American Le Mans, etc. It constantly scrolls the names and numbers of the cars along with their positions. It also has an indicator for when the track is under a full course caution, and it sometimes shows the leaders for each class in ALMS.

Ah.. I get Nascar Busch Series on motors TV here, and those are FOX and NBC broadcasts... They have the same ticker. I find the ticker system to be so much better than the "hope we get to see the time difference for the top 10 before the end of the next 40 laps" F1 approach of providing (no) information.

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The rendering system you describe would be nice, but I think i'll be old and grey before we see such a thing. It seems to me that it would be just as easy to just render a ticker using data from the race. Then, that could be overlaid on the video using video editing tools, similar to what a real TV station might use.

Well, it's there for GPL and NR200x Season. I think it's possible to have LFS stop rendering and proceed a set interval with insim commands, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it.
I seriously believe you underestimate the amount of work involved into creating a ticker by hand. I've tried it before, and it's quite a big job to get right. It's actually easier to write a program to create that ticker for you using readily available LFS info and preset images for various portions of the ticker (course status, advertisements, driver names, etc).

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I'm VERY curious to see how STCC does their videos.

I plan to record the race up to around half a dozen times, most of the streams using default camera positions, with a few hand controlled camera's thrown in to 1 or 2 of the feeds. The races are about 30 minutes so this will take an evening.

'Directing' would be quite quick after that, the leg work starts when adding captions and replays if necessary.

I was an editor for post race coverage of a 24hr race once and that took me ages to go through all the video footage to make sure nothing was missed. I wont be doing that again, i'll be trying to show all the action but an anal attention to detail is just going to make the series implausable. You dont have to show every spill, only if it's major or exciting, you just aim to and try to show every spill and accept that you miss what you miss.

I think in actualy most of the action would be covered in the first 4-5 race recordings, after that you're looking for specific shots and probably using fast forward just to get to certain bits.

My main concern is that my old video editing software is out of date so i've bought Adobe Premier, but I havn't learned how to use it yet! There just isn't time, so I may have to do race 1 a different way to the rest.

If anyone knows a good app to recode DVD's into AVI's i'd be grateful to learn more, the shareware ones i've tried so far dont seem marvellous.

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Not everyone is able to record in your way.

Not everyone is editing STCC races. Specifically I am, and I actually bought the DVD Recorder specifically for the purpose last month.

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3. Even though it looks really good, it's still a conversion from a computer output to a TV system, and then back to computer again.

It's a one way conversion in terms of the analogue signal, and being as i'm using the PAL signal I don't have to use what in the trade is referred too as "Never Twice Same Colour".

Quote :

If you have GPL or NASCAR Racing 2002 or 2003, try to find GPL2AVI and fool around with that for a bit. The system is sooo much better than Fraps or TV/Out recording.

I'm not sure GPL2AVI is going to help me record STCC races though is it? I'm confused at to what you are getting at here, you seem to have a passion opinion about something, but the point is missing me.

I might also use Fraps, at the end of the day my PC can record with Fraps at 800x600 at 30fps with all the eye candy turned on, allowing me to make high quality NTSC and PAL versions for the final output. I wasn't impressed with the quality of Fraps audio when I first tried it but i've since found this to be a driver problem with my onboard sound card - and it would meen I could put my DVD Recorder into the living room.

Quote from TagForce :

Well, it's there for GPL and NR200x Season. I think it's possible to have LFS stop rendering and proceed a set interval with insim commands, so it shouldn't be too hard to make it.

Neither of those games have a real-time sound generation system. I'm not a programmer, but from everything I've read that is the one big thing that prevents LFS from having the things that other sims often do (rewind in replays, for instance). There seems to be no easy way to get the sound out if it's not running in real time.

I believe Scawen said in the U19 test patch thread that rewindable replays are coming quite soon, i'm not sure about pausing each frame, and I still dont get why I need to do it.

If your talking more generally for LFS users to make movies with then this isn't the thread for it. Here is the LFS Companion thread, a mod made for use with the STCC which has a video output stream that i'm making, and commentators are adding too.

Becky - Are you saying that you plan to record each race from your PC to your DVD recorder, from multiple different angles? Am I hearing that right? That means that you'll have to play back the race, in real time, at least half a dozen times, using at least half a dozen DVDs. Then you'll have to rip those DVDs to AVI so that you can edit them.

I would definitely recommend trying Fraps before you go through that much work. Though, recording a half hour program via fraps is gonna give some HUGE files. If you can get your hands on a hardware MPEG2 capture card, that would be your best bet. Too bad you're in PAL-land or I'd loan you one of my NTSC cards.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I believe Scawen said in the U19 test patch thread that rewindable replays are coming quite soon, i'm not sure about pausing each frame, and I still dont get why I need to do it.

I'm under the impression that replays will be able to "jump back" like a tivo, not actually rewind or play in reverse. I don't think you do need to be able to record each discreet frame. It will give you a cleaner source to work with, but I think it's overkill for something like this.

Sorry to drag things OT.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I'm not sure how the sound profiles for each car would know which sample to play if I did that.

A format like XRT_backfire (x).ext has been successfully applied elsewhere i believe.

The thought behind this suggestion was basically to let people not only customize, but also remove stuff they don't want without creating empty placeholders.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I could make this an option, but I think I need to hear a reasoned argument to counter my thoughts on it first.

Argument would be that the performance loss of streaming from harddisk would probably never be noticed, while as your program is currently designed it uses over 40mb of RAM where 90% or so results in a performance gain nobody will probably ever need.

While arguing that using memory if it's there is kind of a good point, arguing to not use memory when you don't need to is even better.

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Argument would be that the performance loss of streaming from harddisk would probably never be noticed

That depends so much on the system though. My PC sure, but I know for a fact that over 99% of LFS users don't have a RAID array. What if the HDD's are in power save mode because LFS has been playing 15 minutes?

I think if I did this it would have to be an option, memory is a huge wasted resource most of the time and virtual memory is there otherwise, which does exactly what you're asking if the RAM isn't there.

I'm not convinced yet.

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Becky - Are you saying that you plan to record each race from your PC to your DVD recorder, from multiple different angles?

Yes, it's one option - Fraps now i've sorted the quality issue is another - although i've only got the demo atm, Fraps uses about 10mb a second at 800x600 at 30fps, that's 18gb for half hour I think, so i've room to edit a race. I've got about 300gb of space.

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That means that you'll have to play back the race, in real time, at least half a dozen times

If i'm going to understand the race well enough to produce a good highlights program I need to watch it a few times anyway. Plus the post race scrutiny in STCC is extremely strict and that needs me to watch the race too.

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using at least half a dozen DVDs. Then you'll have to rip those DVDs to AVI so that you can edit them.

They are a few pense each from work because we buy in huge bulk, and it would only take 2 or maybe 3 disks per race. Recoding back to AVI isn't really a problem on my system as it's very fast - I just go an have dinner and maybe a short soak in the bath, or watch a telly program (for once!).

Quote from Becky Rose :

Not everyone is editing STCC races. Specifically I am, and I actually bought the DVD Recorder specifically for the purpose last month.


It's a one way conversion in terms of the analogue signal, and being as i'm using the PAL signal I don't have to use what in the trade is referred too as "Never Twice Same Colour".

But everyone is a potential LFS video editor. And your way may be good enough for your purposes, a better system is always welcomed once it's created.

The NTSC versus PAL debate is still ongoing. PAL has better colors (although less 'vivid'), but NTSC has a better refresh rate for better high-speed actions (like camera switching).
And yes, it's true that you have only one conversion of the actual signal. But what I was saying was that you're converting a perfect image to a less perfect system, then editing that less perfect system, and re-encode that to an even worse system (xvid, or some other codec, or possibly back to DVD).

Not saying your idea is not the way to go for now, just saying that there are better solutions possible if someone would be willing to undertake such a project.

Quote from Becky Rose :

That depends so much on the system though. My PC sure, but I know for a fact that over 99% of LFS users don't have a RAID array. What if the HDD's are in power save mode because LFS has been playing 15 minutes?

I'd like to see you drive for 15 minutes without hearing a peep from the pit guy. I can hardly go three turns without him spouting off something!

Quote from Becky Rose :

What if the HDD's are in power save mode because LFS has been playing 15 minutes?

Just poke the HDD holding the files every now and then, if this is the main problem.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I think if I did this it would have to be an option, memory is a huge wasted resource most of the time and virtual memory is there otherwise, which does exactly what you're asking if the RAM isn't there.

I'd say it really doesn't, Windows can't figure out which things should preferrably be kept in RAM and which things could work just as good in virtual memory, having all your radio sounds in memory might create a situation where an SQL query on my PC ends up being handled in virtual memory, something i'd really notice.

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I'd like to see you drive for 15 minutes without hearing a peep from the pit guy. I can hardly go three turns without him spouting off something!

So i'd be keeping the hard disk from entering power save mode, thus increasing wear and tear. I'd get sued again! lol ...

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And your way may be good enough for your purposes, a better system is always welcomed once it's created

I'm sorry to say this wont be coming from me, i'm quite busy enough! And it's not really my area of expertise. I have one compression routine of my own but it's quite slow, i'm not sure I have the necessary skillset to work with video codecs.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Neither of those games have a real-time sound generation system. I'm not a programmer, but from everything I've read that is the one big thing that prevents LFS from having the things that other sims often do (rewind in replays, for instance). There seems to be no easy way to get the sound out if it's not running in real time.

Final off topic post on this, I promise.

No, the problem is that there is no per-frame car state saved in the replay. In fact, LFS is capable of playing sounds at any speed you watch the replay. All the other games stop the sound because their sample timings will be off at anything other than 100% speed. In theory, it is possible for LFS to generate the sound there would be from the current point in time until the next "frame" in the replay. It would need to know exactly how long the time between each rendered frame was, though, and take into account any changes to the sound between 2 frames.

It can't rewind because the output is actually calculated by the physics engine, and there's not enough info saved in the replay to be able to "step back the variables". Scawen is working on implementing some sort of car state packets in the replay file, like key-frames in a video. Frames in which all the necessary info is recorded, so the engine can pick up from that point.

it wont let me click "Launch LFS"


What gives?

Quote from Kris-Is-Awesome :

it wont let me click "Launch LFS"


What gives?

That feature is still on the to-do list. The graphic is just there as a placeholder, like some of the other buttons on the top menu.

v0.3 will be out later today and it is quite a big update, i'm just trying to stomp a bug at the moment and then it's ready. After this update I will be doing my STCC stuff so other features will be a while. You can see what is new by looking on the first post where i've highlighted stuff on the to do list.

woo, cant wait to give 0.3 a try!

I have had this but I cant think right now what causes it, but v0.3 will be out very soon (just looking for a host as Banshee is still down) and in v0.3 you can specify the insim port for LFS Companion

UPDATE

• Saving & auto Loading of the configuration
  
• Bi-Directional volume adjustment in the UI
  
• Recode .wav's to mp3 at a lower frequency
  
• Change volume control to work with smaller increments (5%)
  
• Improve auto detection of currently viewed player
  
• Allow players to specify driver that radio messages are given for
  
• Allow customisation of the outguage relay frequency
  
• Auto detect the relay frequency requested by relayed insim applications rather than force companions frequency rate upon them
  
• Cull laps to go message before race start

3.74mb LFS Companion v0.3 Alpha
Hosted by The OC Clan / Webtek

Many thanks to Quint for hosting the file .

rapidshare! ok, most peopl cant use it, but for one month i can, so do it!

EDIT - Damn, beaten!

EDIT - looks good, although hearing someone SAY "Beep" whenever i press save could get a tad... annoying!

added it to my script (to start this, momoleds, spotter, LFS in that order) and i got the "Cannot load Fart 1" error