So when Russia shoots down and kills 300 non-involved civilians its a perfectly understandable accident, but its somehow also America's fault, and Ukraine's, but definitely not Separatists. Good to know.

Also mentioning Israeli war crimes... Is Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately against civilian targets and using children as human shields and their corpses for retweets to be considered war crimes?

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Dude, what thread is this ?
If you want to create a Scottish independence thread, go for it. My point there was about spelling. See my earlier point about reading....., not addressed I notice !
And try to stay on topic please.

You were the one that brought it up you freakin' nut bag!! I merely linked a video of a comedian being deliberately like you.

Quote from dfgjkl :

do shoping with ccards?There war going...hillbilli supermarket...

Yeah you explain me.

Quote :

Yesterday, it emerged that the widow of one of the ten Britons killed had been forced to cancel her husband’s credit cards to stop their fraudulent use.
Reine Dalziel, the wife of British helicopter pilot Cameron, a 43-year-old father-of-two, was ‘stunned’ by the shameful abuse of her dead husband’s belongings. Her brother Shane Hattingh said: ‘People are abusing it in the Ukraine. They have no respect for each other, look what they’re doing. It made me angry beyond words.’

I get the impression there is less war going on then for example during the Yugoslavian conflict. I see people related to Donetsk still online, on video's I see people really busy looking through the debris (searching for valuable stuff). When they get interviewed they are only talking about themselves. Not even saying anything how they experience 'the war' .. Happy I guess, because on another Youtube video some womans started cheering when the rocket went up.

Quote from dfgjkl :

some one need to stop watch social networks

Who? The media? It's all over the news here. (And not only here, basically the whole civilized western world).

This is the only Russian related news source which is making an apology for the enormously shameful behavior; http://issuu.com/novayagazeta/docs/novgaz-pdf__2014-081n

Quote from CSF :

If you are looking for a stick to beat the yanks with, look no further than their disgraceful lack of action on Israel's war crimes in Gaza.

http://www.independentsentinel ... onsoring-nation-of-qatar/

Quote from flymike91 :

So when Russia shoots down and kills 300 non-involved civilians its a perfectly understandable accident, but its somehow also America's fault, and Ukraine's, but definitely not Separatists. Good to know.

Also mentioning Israeli war crimes... Is Hamas launching missiles indiscriminately against civilian targets and using children as human shields and their corpses for retweets to be considered war crimes?

Yea man, of course it is America's fault... Probably our fault if Putin invades Ukraine too. Ohwait.

Hi cargame, the story about the looting of the site originated from the Ukraine defense ministry originally. The quote about bank cards was actually made by a Dutch Bank pointing out that no withdrawals could be made without a pin.

I have yet to see any further actual proof backing up this story other than that.

If you have anything other than Ukraine 'Govt' sources confirming this then please post them as I'm simply unable to find any verification of this. (And, 'it's in the media', is just using Ukraine govt sources)
CNN were there on monday 21 and didn't see anything like this. Neither has any other independent group reported on this.
The original info was made by the Ukraine Govt, see below for their track record in factual information.

For those of you who don't read here's a timeline of events. Please try to pay attention. (Flymike )

17 July, Plane shot down, Almost immediately Russia was to blame. Social media posts, media, youtube video's etc. (Some interesting questions here if you want a conspiracy theory to pick holes in)
Also, Air Traffic control audio seized by Ukraine Security forces.

21 July, Russia release satellite imagery, air traffic control info. Made to World media but NO reporting of this. The entire content of the presentation was also handed over to the European authorities. The conclusions to be drawn from this are stunning, to say the least.
http://21stcenturywire.com/201 ... failed-false-flag-attack/

21 July, US State Department states no proof that Russia was involved.

22 July, CIA Analysts state no proof Russia was involved.

24 July, Ukraine Govt resigns en mass.

25 July, Ukraine Defense dept reports;
"A system mix up during a Ukrainian air defense units’ rocket launch exercise could be the cause of the Malaysia Airlines crash in southeast Ukraine, a source from one of the Ukrainian defense departments told RIA Novosti.
“On July 17 the commanding officer of 156th Anti-Aircraft Regiment was instructed to conduct a training exercise of ground troops stationed near Donetsk, which involved deploying the troops, and carrying out a routine tracking and destroying of targets with the Buk-M1 missile,” the source said.
The source added that the actual launch of the rockets was not intended.
Two Sukhoi Su-25 combat aircraft on a reconnaissance mission participated in the exercise. It is likely at some point, the routes of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 and a Su-25 jet overlapped. Despite flying at different levels, they became a single dot on the radar of the missile system. Of the two, the system automatically chose a larger target.
The reasons for the actual missile launch taking place remain unknown and are still under investigation, as practical exercises with the Buk missiles has been prohibited since 2001, when a Russian Tu-154 passenger airplane en route from Novosibirsk to Tel Aviv was shot down by the Ukrainian military."

See my posts for links to the above.

So, could you please stop the "Russia is to Blame" post's, please. They are only showing your lack of knowledge.

Also, under forum rules, as they are defamatory to Russians, they are potential ban posts given the easily verified information provided..

If posting slang is defamatory, then posting proven lies must be even more so ! And we have Russian members of our Forum.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

The quote about bank cards was actually made by a Dutch Bank pointing out that no withdrawals could be made without a pin.

Bank cards yes, we talk about credit cards here. I have one myself, you could do serious shopping with it when you steal it from me.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

originated from the Ukraine defense ministry originally.

No.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

And we have Russian members of our Forum.

Oh yes, I care that much about them as they care about this incident. Nothing.

.

Dude, we're all humans on this forum (I hope !)

I think you'll find that our Russian forum members are as disgusted at this as the rest of us. There were kiwi's on that flight, in fact they had dual dutch citizenship. I do actually care about this. I'm not posting this to piss you off, I'm posting this because my Govt seems to not care about who actually did kill our people. None of the above information has made our media, apart from the same crap you see (I wonder why ?)

However you may personally feel about any race as a group, that is no reason not to care about individual people.

And we're all people here, we race together, (I get booted from your server due to lag,) but we are all human individuals with the same rights.

And, we owe it to the individuals who were murdered to discover the truth, because they are us.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

And we're all people here, we race together, (I get booted from your server due to lag,) but we are all human individuals with the same rights.

Yes, on the server(s) its different yes. I/we try to let political stuff out of it because it has nothing to do with racing. But here it's about opinions.

There is someone from NZ racing at this very moment by the way. It's a matter of timing, there is indeed huge lag but as long as you don't cause any harm it's sort of OK. Yesterday I had to boot complete Latin America and South Africa -again- for a few hours... Don't like it but people think everything can go together, it cannot. Same as in real life.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

Dude, we're all humans on this forum (I hope !)

I think you'll find that our Russian forum members are as disgusted at this as the rest of us. There were kiwi's on that flight, in fact they had dual dutch citizenship. I do actually care about this. I'm not posting this to piss you off, I'm posting this because my Govt seems to not care about who actually did kill our people. None of the above information has made our media, apart from the same crap you see (I wonder why ?)

However you may personally feel about any race as a group, that is no reason not to care about individual people.

And we're all people here, we race together, (I get booted from your server due to lag,) but we are all human individuals with the same rights.

And, we owe it to the individuals who were murdered to discover the truth, because they are us.

You know.... for the sake of argument, say the Ukrainian government did shoot it down. In all honestly, it very well could've been either side. The evidence presented so far doesn't make me think it could be anyone but the separatists , but still say it's fielder's choice. I doubt the plane was fired on with the shooter knowing it was a civilian airliner.
But that's just it. I don't think this was anywhere near a deliberate action. Just a very stupid one.
And that's it with you. You seem to want to find a deliberate action out of this and other global crap some sort of dark hidden agendas.
Look. The world really isn't run by shadow governments, ancient families or secret societies.
It's run by a bunch of half-wit bureaucrats too busy trying to cover their own asses and too stupid to come up with any world domination. Sure, you got a Dick Cheney that pops up once in a while . But they come and go.
Know what Cheney does nowdays? He runs around a bunch of cocktail parties and tries to grab as many people as he can by the arm and tell them how famous he was. To get him off, they ask about his daughter.....
Same for Putin, Obama, that dude that's president of that one place that does all that stuff... Yeah. All of them. They'll come and go.
But the half-wit bureaucrats too busy trying to cover their own asses remain.
In fact, I bet they have a whole department dedicated to maintaining conspiracy theories so no one finds out about them and then does a performance audit on them.

As the State Dept and CIA have both stated there is no evidence showing Russian involvement and as the Ukraine military have suggested it was their accident then as it stands at the moment, that's what it was.

Excellent live map / website about whats going on there hour by hour;

http://liveuamap.com/e/2014/29 ... 75083923339804&zoom=9

Go Ukraine, smoke those Russian terrorists

It's just a shame that before the Ukraine army attacked the region there was a Dutch/Rebal agreement to investigate to site.

Let's just hope they don't have another 'accident' and hit the aircraft wreckage with the SS21's that they're firing in the region.

I'm sure no one would want it completely destroyed before it can be investigated, would they ?

Particularly the cockpit area .............

Whats so important about the cockpit area? Black boxes already are in the UK.

---
I changed my opinion quite drastically after seeing this 1 hour 20 minute long documentary. There is a civil war going on and its bigger then I estimated;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE18iPQ1Euk

If somebody is going to watch it, it contains extreme graphical content. Without censoring. And if I say extreme, then really extreme.

.

You are aware that the video is on Ukraine troops and militia's actions and attacks on civilians aren't you ?
And the West completely supports the govt actions in restoring 'order'. War does tend to be graphic. Well worth watching to see what's really going on rather than just believing the western media.

There's also a very good BBC Russia report that's now been orwellised but is still available on the web, said the wrong things tho.........

And I would really like to see the cockpit area inspected in situ. A German airforce expert has raised some questions about the photographic evidence he's seen and I think it could be informative to have the physical evidence examined.

And yes, the black boxes are in London.

And the Ukrainians still aren't releasing to Airtraffic audio, and neither have the Russians yet.

And the US is yet to release any information, despite having a satellite overhead, and the rest of their spy apparatus in the area.

Quote from dfgjkl :

If u realy want to who is to blame in all what hapen in ukraina blame ukraine government in first!

Yep, its completly their fault of forcing Russia to annexetion of Crimea...

Quote :

in past 10 years at least ukrainian citizens has no choiсe in who vote for next presiden - oligarch or criminal.

At least we have a choice, a criminal or a an oligarh, yours is both and no other option [/SARCASM]

Quote :

I doubt that there were normal people in "maidan".

And when the riots broke out and a massive hassle and people began to die.What did ukrainian ''gouverment''?Send ukrainian solders to kill own ppl, ukrainian citizens and call it ''punishing mission''.In what they guilty that they deserve to be killed?To avoid being killed by own army they went into the militia or ''opolchenie'' ...

Why does your post repeats Kiselev words exactly? Sorry but thats a straight bullshit...

Your stating these facts based on the information from only one side. The opposing side is telling the opposite, truth is somewhere in between, if it is there at all.

Quote from cargame.nl :

I changed my opinion quite drastically after seeing this 1 hour 20 minute long documentary. There is a civil war going on and its bigger then I estimated;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NE18iPQ1Euk

Shame that people from random countries have to die before rest of the world wakes up and realises what is going on. Ukraine has been a mess soon for almost a year, Crimea has been annexatied for almost 6 months. I'm disappointed of western countries. If action doesn't take place at their turf, they simply don't give a shit. Yes, there are sanctions against Russia undergoing, but that's all. Most of them are boosted by the MH17 stuff anyway.

Good luck in this thread anyway. I'd keep it just for links, discussion won't make it better. Ignorant will stay ignorant, no matter how much you give them facts.

Quote from TypeRacing :

I'm disappointed of western countries. If action doesn't take place at their turf, they simply don't give a shit.

So what is your opinion about Syria then? Funny thing it is the same old Russia again which is against any action. And Russia is not western.

It's a shame people don't understand that there's never compensation or netting between wrongdoings. It always spirals into chaos.

Thanks all for links and info, it's a good thread overall.

My take on this is simplifying, and this is always a dangerous thing to do but this is how I rationalize the events.

1. Small countries are always under the gravitational pulls of the large powers. This gravity means political and economic influence, interference, manipulation, etc. I'm not debating on why is this happening, it's as natural as gravity.

2. Ukraine as a state, was and is under strong Russian influence. Their leaders have obviously always been "validated" by Russia. Russia paid, and still pays for its presence (and for their Crimean bases) with gas, but did not care too much what crap those leaders were doing in their own country because corruption is something natural in Russia too.

3. Ukraine has a diverse ethnic structure but lacks the wisdom of a mature country, corruption is endemic and ethnic intolerance is at high levels all over the country. Blaming Russia for all that is a cheap shot.

4. Maidan came as a reaction of the western side of the country, build on the frustration that they cannot escape the Russian sphere of influence. Of course there was western (US) interference and support in all this, there always is, see point one.

5. Russia took Maidan events as an aggression of the US on it's sphere of influence(EU is a military dwarf, it does not count), and being kind of a last stand for them (see the strategic positioning of Crimeea) reacted aggressively to it. Imagine Russia trying such a move in Central America, how would US react..). I think this was their plan B in case there are signs of losing Ukraine, brake it and create a smaller buffer. It is a rather recurring strategy of theirs: Kaliningrad, Transtistria, etc.
But again, these are defensive moves. I believe the Russian leaders have this growing frustration that they feed half of the world with raw materials and energy, are at the same time a huge consumer market for Western products, but politically and militarily, Russia is shrinking at at fast pace. This is a lose-lose situation, that they are very aware of. So they are unlikely to let go.

6. Ukraine's East is ethnically Russian. Ukraine has to respect and deal with that correctly. The slogans of the Maidan were not that much for freedom and reconciliation, they often targeted directly the Russian citizens of Ukraine. A country that is in control of its territory by using its army against its citizens does not deserve that territory, and foreign intervention is necessary from wherever, and whatever the hidden agenda. National sovereignty should never justify international inaction in the face of atrocities.

7. I see no bright future for Ukraine in it's present shape and government format. Having its borders rather artificially set within the USSR, it is very heterogeneous. The only way to save itself is federalization. Otherwise it will brake. Russia needs the eastern buffer, one way or another.

8. Also, the Russians from East Ukraine deserve a normal life, just as normal as the westerners.

Meanwhile in Gaza...

Quote from Bmxtwins :

Meanwhile in Gaza...

Meanwhile in Iraq

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7f_1406610219

WARNING: This video contents extreme graphical content!

PS. You will not understand a shit, but take your time and spend those 30 mins to watch how brainless can people (people? not sure) be.

This is a CNN report on the crash site, they actually got there on Wed 30 July and filmed this.
I'm not a fan of CNN but good on them for doing this. And actually reporting what they saw.
The Russians have said the same, but most of you refuse to believe their reporting.

Watch it carefully, I won't be surprised if some of this evidence is never heard of again.
This is why I want independent experts to examine the cockpit area.
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07 ... isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council claimed Wednesday that "terrorists" -- the term it uses to describe rebels -- have set up firing positions and laid mines on the access road to the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

Dutch investigators in Ukraine did not mention mines but announced Wednesday that unsafe conditions kept their contingent from visiting the crash site for the fourth straight day.

CNN could not independently confirm the veracity of the statement by the Ukrainian officials, though CNN's team traveled to and from the debris field safely Wednesday.

The dangers in the area make the work of international experts "impossible," the Ukrainian defense council said.

And this is a copy of the BBC Russia report, at least until it's deleted yet again....
http://www.merinews.com/articl ... t-so-video/15899615.shtml

You can't see a fighter jet on 10 kilometer (33000 feet) height 'hiding behind a Boeing 777' .. If you can you have alien eyes. Who are telling these stories? Some local woman which cannot even parallel park a car properly. And they are analyzing the sky? Come on.

So that's just a report I was telling you about earlier from the BBC that keeps getting deleted. Didn't comment about it's accuracy. And given the weather at the time it's highly unlikely.

The one I asked you to watch was the CNN one, that is rather interesting.
The Russian media had spotted this earlier, so had the German Airforce expert. It would be interesting to actually get this checked forensically by an expert.

http://www.anderweltonline.com ... oad/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf
This is a different shot of the same area. This only occurs around the cockpit area.

And before some hero points out that the SU 25 cannot attain these altitudes I suggest a little bit more research on their part. If you do this you will discover that in 2010 the Ukraine issued a contract for an upgrade to an improved SU 25 M1 spec, with seriously uprated engines (R-195) and avionics.

I am aware that at least 4 single seaters and 2 2 seaters were upgraded and delivered in 2012. These, if no weapon pods are carried are just capable of this altitude.
As supported by Russian radar information released to the EU which stated the aircraft were at a similar altitude. This is impossible with a standard SU 25.
Upon entering Ukrainian airspace, MH17 was instructed by Ukrainian air traffic control to fly at 33,000ft. The M1 spec isn't capable of 35,000ft.

Be great if the Ukraine released the air traffic control audio, which their security forces seized immediately, as that could have cast some information on the facts.

The only previous sources I had for this were Russian so I wasn't going to raise it, but as the story is now supported by CNN as well, with good video, I think it's worth pointing out.

Quote from Racer X NZ :

http://www.anderweltonline.com ... oad/PDF/Cockpit-MH017.pdf
This is a different shot of the same area. This only occurs around the cockpit area.

So to produce that pattern with its (enormous) cannon the Su-25 (or 39, whatever) had to fire at the plane in a 90° angle, coming from the side? Quite a task at 900+km/h.

If the Su-25 used a missile to shoot the jet down, it had to be a autonomous infrared guided one (as the Frogfoot (the versions Ukraine has) is an assault plane without a radar). But the engines looked relatively fine, at least not as if they had been hit directly.

A splinter warhead of a radar guided AA missile with proximity detonation on the other hand....