Tweak you have outdone yourself here, Fordman asked a simple question, stated he thought, the mod aided his enjoyment, thus helping him get more out = put more in = better personal performance/enjoyment.
This is/was and still remains the question.
Not being rude or anything But all ive read from you so far is "thats wrong because , i can spin on my finger using no sound, and my language skills are so sooporz, i cant understand what your saying! , you want to insult as many people indirectly as possible or just people that dont agree with you ?
If you dont think improvements to the sound engine will aid players then
you need your head & ears tested. (so far i see 5 people at least in this thread, posted , having a richer, maybe not more accurate sound, help them (not you) feel more connected)
To me sound is just as integral as any other part of what makes a game work. sometimes the sound can make a good game better sometimes worse, Its a tricky balance, so easy to be a critic and so hard to compliment Tweak, does that sound relative to you ?
[edit] Gener_Al, I've got a poor net connection (wireless lappy in bed) and I think I was looking at a cached page until posting forced a refresh. I didn't see what you'd posted til now. What you said.
It's perfectly reasonable, from a psychological perspective, for Fordy's experience to be genuine - that the sounds that the CSR bring to his LFS experience appear to have had a direct and positive effect on his ability to grab new PBs. That is his experience, and that is that.
The question posed was whether his was an isolated case, or if anyone else had found that the CSR had had a similar effect on anyone else. The answer is clearly that others HAVE had that experience. The question was not if EVERYONE, but if ANYONE..
What isn't reasonable is for anyone to tell Fordy that his experience is bogus. It's his experience, and his PB, the way he feels and the result that he experiences. Nobody is better qualified than Fordy to state whether a PB was just a new PB, or a PB as a result of an experience-enhancing mod. You don't have to have the same experience as Fordy.. you can even have completely the opposite experience, but you're on the wrong side of reason if you assert that, because your experience differs, then Fordy is chatting bull.
Yes I agree synthesizing is the future and technology to simulate very complex sound from scratch has been here for quite some time. It's called physical modeling and it's widely used by likes of Korg and Yamaha in their professional musical instruments trying to emulate real thing. Problem is that so far it's only possible to emulate simple instruments like brass, reed instruments and stringed ones to some extent. Forget about piano, for example! Limiting factor is huge DSP processing power needed for this technique to sound anywhere near the sound of multi sampled instrument.
More, something like car engine is so complex to simulate by above mentioned technology, that's practically impossible to do it without huge external DSP processing help like Sharc DSP farms, etc. There are so many resonating cavities and moving parts in your average engine, that modelling all this would took up any CPU completely(probably 20 CPUs!), not to mention staggering complexity of a such mathematical model.
In the mean time the only reasonable and DSP cheap alternative is multisampling real engine and crossfading between samples. Yes, it's compromise ... but the results are much better at the moment with this technique.
First, I don't have the CSR mod, but watch CSI on television, so that sorta makes me an expert on this...
Does the sound Make you a better driver? Yes. Sorry Tweak
Think about it, It has to do with comfort. A lot of people are annoyed with
the sounds in LFS compared to the canned noises you get in other games.
Well if this sound is an annoyance, wouldn't it be as distracting the phone ringing or people shouting in the background when you're trying to play?
But I don't think it's the sounds in the mod that actually makes you go faster,
it's the relative comfort that the new sounds provide over the buzzy old ones
that does.
As far as sounds go with me personally... I'm fine with them as they are.
I don't think changing them would do me any good. In fact, it might slow me down at first as being something new
Kinda off topic, but still about sound.
On my old comp I had a 512 stick of memory that allowed me to play LFS and listen to online radio. I drove more cleaner and alot slower then.
Now that I'm stuck with the 256 standard memory on this new comp
(the old stick fried along with the cpu and m/board) I can't listen to the radio. I drive faster and well, not so clean. The music (sound!!!) must have
an effect on the aggression levels. LOL Either that or it cause my work commute is over 50 miles a day in rush hour (s) traffic and I forget that you're not supposed to drive as crazy in LFS as you can in real life.
Even though Turn One comes close.
But then again what do I know... I'm just another one of them Stupid Americans -
Huh Fordman? :P
You guys are throwing the whole "muted sound" and "sound isn't useful" out of proportion here. Especially you AL.... with an extra amount of inconsideration to what someone feels IS a useful tool in the game.
Furthermore AL, I am not ridiculing Boris' english, he was trying to explain a point over and over, and I had trouble understanding it... yet you think I am throwing a tomato in his face and acting all suprerior? I'm being polite and understandable to him, and I atleast got his point. So along with you and Fordman for coming up with such lame regurgitations to try and make me feel alone and vulnerable on behalf of my opinion, you guys can learn a thing or to about being polite, or at least try to consider a point I want to make.... Because I for one have not disagreed with the fact sound is important to some people, it is likely that others use it to a higher degree than I do, and I can understand that.
And again, I am only trying to explain that the CSR mod (which Fordman was so excited about that he had to come on here and post that it got him a magical PB) should do NOTHING to help you drive faster, as it doesn't tell you anything about the car and what it is doing... at least not accurately (it is mostly effects). And to go in a bit more detail, you guys are saying that without sound and/or hearing the car properly, you would not be able to drive fast, and that I just sound absurd. Well then how the HELL did Fordman drive PB's with a mod that has the worst sound feedback ever heard in LFS? In a sense he is driving blind with sounds that are ever so poorly emulated to that of what the car is doing. It is only quality of the sounds that are better, not the accuracy, and added effects that make you feel like you are driving a car. As I've said, CSR has all the miscellaneous effects used in the mod to only make things seem more real (like backfire, brake chirps, whines, whistles, etc....). All of those are extras, and nothing beneficial to knowing what the car is doing, as all you really need is throttle pitch and tire squeal (maybe wind noise too), those of which are the basic sounds that LFS currently plays. And if you are so dependant on sound, that is the kind of auditory information that you'd need.
Fordman thinks the mod can float his boat and make him faster, fine he can believe that all he wants. As to some of you too. I still think it is strange to think it helps when it doesn't even represent what the car is doing correctly, so I don't see how it can make you better. And my point being about having no sound and still being fast, it is possible, how could you act like I am being ignorant and make me appear to be a disgruntled one, or the 'elitist' that thinks sound is of the least importance? It is only a direct comparison in saying that if I were to use CSR or LFS sounds, either of those would still allow me to be a fast driver.... and that essentially means any sound could be played and you could still drive quickly. I mute LFS and play music through Winamp every now and then, it gets me goin, and I can still drive fast. How is it bad to say that you can drive fast, even without sound? You act like the sound is required for almost 100% of the game to even function, it is silly. If I act like the game can still work wonders for a world record time without sound, then that is personal experience, and is a FACT. This isn't just word of mouth like you cater your mind to think AL.
But still, you guys have yet to see that I am saying sound does indeed help at times where you'd truly need it (ie shifting, bottoming out, differential, etc). But I guess I am in my own world, and am likely to "tune" those sounds out, because most of my driving is with focus of the eyes and through the hands and feet. The sound is so subliminal because the ears are always open to sound, and like Sam said, it is more of a psychological aspect of driving when you have sound. If you are entirely focused on the sound of the car, then maybe it works for you, or maybe it doesn't. I find that a much higher effort involved in the focus of driving should be with the senses other than the sound.
This isn't to say that LFS should keep it's current sound engine quality. I prefer the way LFS does its sounds currently, however the quality is important to me, and if it sounded cooler.... sure I'd like that, but I doubt 100% that it would make me faster if there was added whines and whistles. That is why I've been so spun up in this thread, because Fordman's initial thoughts on what makes a difference is from a sound mod that has all the extra bells and whistles that only makes itself look worse because it is horrible in comparison to the feedback LFS gives you. Now if LFS has it's current engine but with throatier sounds and effects, that's fine with me. But again, will it make me faster? I highly doubt that. And I'd like to hear from any other drivers that can get world records... or else I am just talking to a blank wall here with drivers that struggle for fast times due to not having a backfire noise :zombie: I've never turned down the need for having a better sound engine, why should I be appearing to do so now? I am not.
I definitely dislike having to type along in this big "controversial" topic if our ears are checked, (lol AL), because not only is this largely based on how people drive, but also still leaves that question that Fordman asked. Which I've been answering from the very beginning if you put all my posts together. I've said what I've had to say about whether or not it helps. Boris believes it adds to the enjoyment and that can help with the driving experience, I can believe that. But others, along with me, believe that having something that recreates the sounds to that of something like the CSR mod, and then to say you can be faster, I just don't see how that is possible. I just keep repeating myself on this. But to answer Fordman even more, no I don't think world records would be even faster, but if the added sounds help people with the immersion and enjoyment of any particular car, than I suppose those who struggle to be a fast driver, would all be at a faster pace. Sounds crazy, but I guess that with a video game, especially a simulation, if the basic/essential sounds are really top quality stuff, AND you have all the extra effects, I guess it makes a difference for those that really want to feel "involved" with the driving. Each to their own though
My reasoning for acting like Fordman's experience is "bogus" is only because people can improve their PBs no matter what happens. If my LFS sounds better and I get a PB, will I blame the sounds for giving me the success? No. If I am playing music and no car sounds are heard while driving, and get a PB, is the music my answer to success? No. If I have a dog barking in my ear, forcing me to stay focused on driving allowing me to get a PB, should I train my dog to keep barking so I can drive better? No. If I am wearing green socks instead of white socks, and I get a PB, should I call those my lucky green PB socks? No, and definitely no . Keeping it to a single item as the source of getting a PB is the funny part about this. He is roughly 3 seconds off the world record with the XFR @ SOT, and IF he can get within at least a second of the world record, I'd consider the sounds as helping him and refer him as a reliable source. But this is all just self-improvement of a PB, we all learn to be faster, why is CSR the "miracle"?
My point is (and reason for thinking Fordman's experience just sounds odd to me), is that PBs are so easily obtainable, why should the sound be the deciding factor in getting a PB? It can be a number of things, and not just the sound. We've all been there when we get a PB, you have a good drive, but it isn't just sound that gets you the PB (AL this doesn't mean "no sound" :tilt. That's the best way I can describe this, I wish I had thought of it earlier. :doh:
This is it from me. AL, I'll see you online or something, as always.
You're pretty much right, but you can't really compare multi-sampled instruments to car engines since, for example, a piano sample bank will contain samples of every single key, probably even multiple times over for different strength and techniques, whereas a sampled car engine currently contains about 10 samples, where of course all sounds the engine produces are mixed together. Sort of like a piano bank with 10 prerecorded chords suitable for progressing from one to the next.
The quality and useability of sampled instrument banks comes from sampling an enormous amount of source, "standard" multi-sampled car engine banks is nowhere near this sort of thing.
Note: i'm not saying LFS' internal sound engine sounds more like real engines.
And there was me thinking it was a fluke, using the CSR sounds for the FZR immediately made me faster, not by a huge amount, but certainly much easier to break my PB's using CSR.
TBH, I personally think CSR is the best thing since sliced bread for LFS, if I can get rid of the "soundtrack" feeling, i.e. it feels like an added soundtrack rather than noise coming from the car, then it would be killer.
No, I have no idea why this was brought up. There might be a drivetrain noise that is dependend on overall speed, but the normal engine sounds are generated by RPM + amount of pedal pressure, not speed.
@Fordman: Yes, the sounds definitely make a positive difference. For me, atleast.
But I think it depends on what kind of times you are already driving, what car and what track. If you're already close to WR speeds, then it can make you slower, because some of the feedback gets indeed masked by CSR.
But atleast for the LX4 (tbh, the only car I really tried with CSR), I beat my FE4 PB by one second on the first try. Now, first, my PB wasn't all that impressive to begin with, so that "huge" jump isn't that dramatic.
Second, the LX4 is probably the #1 car with the most annoying sound ever. Eliminating that sound helped my concentration TONS. It was much much easier getting into the car and flow.
And third, the sounds may be inaccurate, but they make the car actually sound powerful. As a direct result, I had more respect and wasn't inclined to give full throttle all the time, which not only helped alot on mid and exit of the corner, but also on preserving my tyres. With the pure LFS sounds, giving 25, 50 or 75% throttle sounded almost the same. Sure, you hear more "load", but the engine sounds mindboggingly weak at anything else than full throttle. Because of that, I instinctively pressed the throttle down more, in the fear of "losing time".
In conclusion: Yes, the sounds generated by CSR can help you drive faster. Will you magically beat WRs with it? Probably no. Will it give you more information than LFS? Definitely not. Can it help you by a psychological effect? Hell yes.
That's a good point, LFS engines are a bit weak sounding when not having the pedal to the metal and this can make it seem like 'not much is happening' even though you're going beyond the limits of the car.
well, i tried GTR, GTR2, GT LEGENDS, RFACTOR, etc.. and i play a lot LFS.
I also tried CSR last night.
Well, no offense on nice guy who made CSR, but, i dt like it. But i know it is because of lack of information you get from OutGauge.
For example, the load/unload samples are linked with throttle wich is not good for feedback.
Plus, i didnt manage to tune thing so i can hear the tire squeel again.
Getting back to the subject, i'm slower with CSR, because the feedback information from engine torque is not good, and i cant hear the tire squeel anymore.
Now, i'm pretty sure, that if we could get the engine load en OutGauge info, CSR could be great
I bet 'fancy sound effects' will make a slower driver faster, as they'll get into it, they'll be trying to make the car make nice sounds, and generally concentrate on the engine a bit quicker.
But I reckon (and I haven't tried it yet, that's a job for next week) that the sampled, OOS sounds will make a fast driver slower. Now, I'm not as fast as Tweak, but I know that to be fast you do need the sounds, either from the diff, the gears, the engine load PRECISELY, and LFS allows this. The samples are, just like crappy handling samples in ISI, not as good from a driving point of view as synthed.
I am almost willing to bet real money that CSR will make me slower, except perhaps in the FXO which is the only car I really really suck on.
i just wanna give my .2cents. sound does make a difference, CSR sounds good, i wont deny that, but LFS sounds are much better imho and i couldnt race using csr, i tried it once or twice on sp but it doesnt suit me.
CSR is the main topic of this conversation, as started by Mr Fordman. That is why we mention.
The basic question is: Does the 'enhanced' CSR sounds enable a driver to be quicker than the 'standard' LFS sounds allow?"
Being able to drive on mute or low volume isn't the question. Personally I can't drive at all without sounds of sorts, but the question is whether the quality or depth of the sounds makes a difference.
I simply think it comes down to concentration, because fordman was loving the experience and totally tuned in, he was concentrating more... and you're bound to do better at something if your concentration is focused and more dedicated.
Simple really... if you find the new sounds slightly annoying and you can't gel with them to feel what the car is doing then you'll be concentrating less on what you're doing and therefor likely to be slower or make mistakes. Which kinda backs up what Tristan was saying.
As for the engine dynamics, since the new sounds play over the top of the originals, you can still hear them and thus means you shouldn't lose the edge the synth sounds provide.
I'm gonna try CSR tonight, i'll probably end up just using a few of the effects rather than the actual engine sounds but i'll see how I get on.
I just tried it out. i was racing on the Redline Server with the FOX this morning. After I read this thread I just tried the CSR (and the FOX sounds from LFS database). And actually I was going faster. But I think it has to do with the fact that I can't hear the tyres as much as with the original sounds, thus leading to push harder.
I notice a few folks stating that they hated the FZR and never drove it. Then using the sound mod, they loved it and started getting PB's (paraphrased). That isn't the case of the sound causing pb's, it is a case of not driving the FZR vs. driving the FZR. Sure, the sounds contribute to the pb's indirectly because you are enjoying the FZR now, thus driving more, thus improving pb's. But it is just that. You are driving more. If you drive the FZR for an hour then determine you hate it because of the LFS sound and never drive it again, then months later try the sound mod with the FZR, love it and run it all weekend for hours and hours, sure, you will be blasting pb's all weekend long. It is a function of driving it more rather than sound.
Which is the area that LFS completely lacks at this stage. And looks like sound area is not going to drastically change before S3. So CSR is here to patch up that.
And why you're using so harsh language, "inaccurate", "poor" terms towards CSR? I'm sure you know that CSR is just OutGauge mod which has lots of restrictions (like the lag) and I think it's amazing even this much is possible with it.
Indeed, you can use only the sounds you want to use. And even with the engine sounds you can make LFS car sound volume much louder, so you shouldn't actually loose critical amount of feedback.
If you are not blind there is a setting called "skid volume" in LFS audio options.
I'm actaully finding I'm better round the sharp corners with CSR. With the meatier sounds, slowing down correctly now feels more like something I have to do, rather than just something I should do! From a feedback perspective, I think it's giving a better impression of the power of the engine.
Also, if CSR sounds went simply by the speed of the car, logically you wouldn't hear anything on the starting line (which you do, when you rev the car), and changing from 1st through to 5th gear would generate a smooth and simple ascent in pitch all the way, which is of course not what happens.
edit: Maybe Tweak you meant something else here (sorry but I'm not real technical when it comes to cars)
Again the point is , does the sound aid/help , and if people are now driving FZR because the sound gives the player more enjoyment, then point proven,but you agreed with this in first half of your statement then discard it at the end where i have quoted.
Some people never the see the wood for the tress, seeing only what they want to see, and knowing only only what they heard.
Tweak , dont take what i say to heart, im just a bit touchy when it comes to sound/hearing and the value of it.
I haven't tried the CSR mod, and I don't really intend to based on some of what I have read.
Other games have more immediately impressive sounds, but the thing about LFS is that as a pure stream of information that you can use (if you want), the LFS sounds are perfect. I would obviously hate it, but hypothetically a whistle which is 100% a constant correct indication of your rpm, would be more "useful" (to me) than a "real sample" engine model which is even remotely inaccurate. Even if it is more impressive and real sounding initially.
If the illusion of a more real sound (at whatever cost) gets you more immersed into the experience, then sure, I expect you'd find yourself more able to concentrate and focus a bit harder. So your times might drop. But that's the only reason for it, and in terms of simple information given to you by the engine note, there's no reason any other sounds would make it easier to drive accurately than LFS sounds make it.
But all ive read from you so far is "thats wrong because , i can spin on my finger using no sound, and my language skills are so sooporz, i cant understand what your saying! , you want to insult as many people indirectly as possible or just people that dont agree with you ?
illepall
From a feedback perspective, I think it's giving a better impression of the power of the engine. 
