If there is anyone who remeber the game STCC-2 by Digital Illusions (DICE) they would recall the automatic black flag if they hit anyone to hard from behind. This was sometimes anoying but it worked. You had to learn to drive properly even with the AI cause a black flag meant a drive trough penalty.
It didn't give you a black flag for just a nudge or a scratch but anything harder than that was punished. Could that be implemented in LFS?

I understand that it would take some delicate programming and I understand that it wouldn't be 100% fair at all times, but at least it would help coming to terms with the "first turn warzone". I bet it also would help against fast drivers punting slower ones out of the way. They would suddenly have to do it like in real life. Wait for the slower (blue flagged?) driver to make room or simply pass them at a good spot.

At least, I would like to see this sort of thing as a server option.

I always thought a black flag stood for disqualification... That seems a bit harsh.

But a drive thru could be suitable punishment for hitting someone form behind too hard. Would be tricky to implement though, 'cause I can think of loads of reasons of this happening when it's not your fault...

I don't think that would work. For example, if youre on a half lap lead, and hit accidentally some newbie sitting in the middle of a race line after a spin, you would still win the race after a collision. But if you're black flagged or punished with a stop and go for that accident (which isn't even your fault), your at the bottom at the checker flag.

As I said, it's not going to be 100% fair. But let's say you do hit that newbie (or anyone for that matter). In real life, you should have noticed the yellow flag, started to look way up front and ease off the gas a little just in case.
As it is now, some people drive worse than the SCGT AI and crash in turn one and instantly start hitting SHIFT+R.

I think it is something that should be considered. Make LFS a bit more realistic - i know thats the wrong word for it but i think you know what i mean.

Quote from frokki :

I don't think that would work. For example, if youre on a half lap lead, and hit accidentally some newbie sitting in the middle of a race line after a spin, you would still win the race after a collision. But if you're black flagged or punished with a stop and go for that accident (which isn't even your fault), your at the bottom at the checker flag.

I think it would be quite easy to program in an exception for hitting drivers that are causing a yellow flag...

Quote from bobvanvliet :

I think it would be quite easy to program in an exception for hitting drivers that are causing a yellow flag...

Even better! Great idea

you have to take into consideration things like blue flags and such; if the leader is comming up on someone thats a lap down or so, and they spun out and didnt look and turn out right infront of the leader causing them to crash; it should be the person that spun that got the flag, because they caused the collision; if they took the time to look, then they could have easily prevented such to happen

however; things get hairy especially when you start thinking of Aston GP/Historic/cadet and whatnot with that hill (going up it). That leaves many people in misery loosing all control.. and spinning out; if they spin out and somehow stay on the track, and someone else comes up spinning and whack them... well whos problem is it? is it the first person that spun, or the second?

so yes... lots has to be thought about before something can be programed; although i do agree, it would be very great to have something like that (not black flag though; drive through would much better suit that)

Quote from bobvanvliet :

I think it would be quite easy to program in an exception for hitting drivers that are causing a yellow flag...

That's why i didn't go to highschool.
LOL

But XCNuse is right. Again.

There is one major flaw with this concept. It isn't realistic. Big shunts do happen in racing and often it isn't through a breach of rules or sportsmanship. Penalising someone "just in case" they have acted wrongly does not sound very fair.

Ok time to raise this from the dead...but from a different point of view

We need black flags(disqual) and black & white flag(penalty, similar to Stop & Go!!

Simply, people should be black flagged on these occasions:

1) not giving way to blue flags, basically if you ignore the blue flag for too long you should be black flagged.

2) Causing an incedent when theres a yellow flag, this one is really tricky to handle. Basically if you are driving and there is a yellow flag you should back off the gas and prepare to slow down or stop (the offical rules for any driving sport). Causing an incedent during a yellow should have a penalty black & white flag.

Also Red flags should be shown when there is a huge incedent (mainly T1 incedents :P)

1, Just wouldn't work in reality. For Example when i've just joined a race say in lap 5 i'll start to try and get as many positions ahead for a better starting grid slot. So if i come up to a racer who is 0.25 slower than me but I feel I could pull away I would overtake. But on doing this it may take me a whole lap to get rid of the blue sign, which would gain me a black flag even though I am faster and I am not slowing the other driver down.

2, Its a nice idea but sometimes you just can't help it especially if the crashed driver is rejoining on the apex as you come round (hate that) but you are right you should back off the throttle and be more aware. When i've had spins/collisions and someone comes flying around the corner and hits me, there was nothing I could do quickly enough to get out of the way but I still get a whole load of abuse from the person who crashed into me even though they never tried to slow down just a little.

Sometimes I just wish people realise stuff like this happens, we are all humans and make mistakes now and again. (I hardly ever get into situations like that but during the race there is always some argument about who done what and who's fault it is etc. Luckily the devs implemented the glorious - for message blocking)

Andy.

Quote from Pabs(Sco) :

Ok time to raise this from the dead...but from a different point of view

We need black flags(disqual) and black & white flag(penalty, similar to Stop & Go!!

Simply, people should be black flagged on these occasions:

1) not giving way to blue flags, basically if you ignore the blue flag for too long you should be black flagged.

2) Causing an incedent when theres a yellow flag, this one is really tricky to handle. Basically if you are driving and there is a yellow flag you should back off the gas and prepare to slow down or stop (the offical rules for any driving sport). Causing an incedent during a yellow should have a penalty black & white flag.

Also Red flags should be shown when there is a huge incedent (mainly T1 incedents :P)

Have to say this again, blue flag does not mean stop and let them by. There are too many instances where you may see a blue flag and not need to let anyone by. In LFS, the blue flag only means someone ahead of you in position is close behind. Not that someone behind you is faster and should be let by. In longer league racing with pitting, this could cause alot of unneccessary black flags. If my strategy in 9th place is to pit on lap 15 and the leader's strategy who is now close behind is to pit on lap 20, then I'll recieve a blue flag, even though I could be running the same times as him and he is not catching me. I spent about 5 laps giving the guy ahead of me the blue flag in my last league race. I wasn't faster than him, I couldn't catch him. He just spun or something and pitted allowing me to come around and catch up to his tail. I certainly didn't want him to stop his race temporarily to let me by, I wasn't faster than him. I tried to catch up to him to put him a lap down to me, but couldn't.

I do like the black flag idea when ignoring the yellow or causing something during a yellow. But this may be tough because if someone close ahead spins and is sideways, you may not be able to avoid him, therefore code would probably give you a black flag for causing an incident during a yellow. As for the red flag, I'd rather see a true full course yellow flag (for league racing, server option) for big crashes. Makes for more interesting racing in leagues where the field can get gathered back up for a lap and allow the crashed cars to come to pit without loosing 3 laps on their way around.

I once had a blue flag for over 6 laps! I joined a server, and a race was underway. I joined, and after a silly spin, I was about 100 yards in front of the leaders. But my times were the same to within a tenth of the leader, so he never caught me, and I never pulled away.

How would a black flag in that situation been fair?

The computer will even show a blue flag to a FZ50 driving in front of a GTi. As long as the computer doesn't know how to show correct blue flags there is no sense in penalting the player for the server's dumbness.

Vain

Since it is impossible for your software and PC to make a decision on who really caused an incident, an automatic black flag in this case would not be useful. Cutting a corner perhaps, but not a collision.

How about, instead of an "automatic" black or black/white flag, there is an option to vote. I know it could be abused, but imagine this. Someone is causing a big holdup and ignoring blue flags for the leaders, the leader starts a vote for a black/white flag, and those who encounter the same trouble (maybe the vote should last longer than normal votes due to the time taken for multiple people to encounter the problem driver) also vote. And if the vote number is reached (maybe less proportionally than normal votes) then the driver is handed a drive-through or a stop-go (drive-through first offence [as with speeding, etc.] and a stop-go second offence).

I know it would be hard to write in to the game, but I've fallen victim several times to "brake checking", where I would be following someone for a few laps, and suddenly, they slam on their brakes full lock and I smack in the back of them, propeling them ahead and causing me to spin. Most of the time it has happened in key places, like the chicane in BL or the 90-degree turn 3 at SO town. I suppose when damage modeling gets a little better, and doing something like this actually hurt the car in front more, people will stop doing it, but it really sucks when you know you are faster and some idiot cant handle coming in 2nd instead of 1st.

Brendan

hows that a black flag lol

for one, if you hit someone from the rear thats all your fault, person in front can do whatever they want pretty much .. they can brake as hard as they want, and if you hit them it will always be your fault cause you were chasing to close

um.. whats the point of this thread again? or are you just ranting off about how you get to close and rear someone?.. or is there more stuff thats hidden that i cant seem to find :S

Well, someone slamming on the brakes 100% before the BL chicane or the mentioned SO turn isn't normal. Brake testing is fine and all, but it should be on a point where you would need to brake normally, only then you do it a bit earlier.

In theory, I am all for some sort of Black-flag-system to DQ aggressive/unfair drivers, but it would be very difficult to decide when the program issues such a flag.

This has been discussed here quite extensively, I suggest you use the search.

XCNuse WTF are you saying?

Brake testing is no better than ramming a car off the track, it is completely unacceptable behaviour in both real life and in LFS. Of course the car in front can brake as early for the corner as they like, but not in the middle of a straight.

Yep ppl who do that need to be shot. Had a couple of times someone lock brake in the middle of the bl1 back straight. Hardly an acceptable maneuvre.

@XCNuse:
It's the trailing driver's fault, true but not when the driver ahead makes a deliberate move, when it's not necessary, to make contact that will surely give advantage to him/her.

Quote from ajp71 :

XCNuse WTF are you saying?

lol i guess i didnt really understand what he meant by saying 'brake check'

I was driving in the windshadow of someone in front of me at the BL1 straight and of course, I closed up... But when I was just enough close to pass him either side, he suddenly hopped on the brakes so that I bumped into him, pushing him forward so that he almost didn't lose any speed, whereas I was not only slowed down because I tried to brake to avoid this, but also from bumping into him... illepall

This racer was a hotlapper anyways, but such people REALLY should get a punishment of any sort...

Quote from XCNuse :

lol i guess i didnt really understand what he meant by saying 'brake check'

NP sorry if I sounded harsh