Quote from tristancliffe :

If the handbrake stays as it is, but is 'turn-offable' by pressing your handbrake button/axis, would that keep people happy for the time being?

Speaking only for myself, no. That would not make me happy. In fact, that would be worse than what we have now because people who don't use auto-handbrake would have to do extra work (turning the damn thing off) that the people who use it don't have to do, with no additional benefit.

Quote :

Is it the auto-handbrake (which to be fair WILL reduce startline carnage) or the fact it's not turn-offable except by moving the car?

Again, speaking only for myself here...it's the fact that it exists at all. This is supposed to be the sim where "you drive the car". I don't want the car controlling itself. *I* want to control the car. And I don't want someone who's using a totally unrealistic driving aid to have a huge advantage when they're doing less work and needing less skill. That is the case right now for auto-handbrake, as well as the other driving aids.

Frankly, I don't understand the reasoning behind having it at all. We expect users to be able to drive a (simulated) 600hp car that goes 200mph around a twisty, winding track, but we don't think they're smart enough to press the brake pedal to keep from coasting?

Quote :

When I'm driving, I don't want to ever HAVE to take my hands off the wheel and click a menu button with my mouse. I don't talk online except when I have to, but I really don't want to have to click 'Ready' EVERY TIME I go to the grid.

That's understandable. I'm not big on typing or pressing keys myself, but I don't think that one click after each race is a big deal. That's like once every 10 minutes, even for fairly short races. How about "Hold brake to go to grid" or something like that? You hold the brake for 2 seconds and it takes you to the grid, with you holding the brakes, and no handbrake engaged. That would satisfy me.

Here's another idea: How about having auto-handbrake a toggleable driving aid, just like auto-blip, auto-cut, and auto-clutch? So long as it's reported by an InSim packet, people like me who want to run no-aids servers could detect that it's being used and kick that person to spectate. THAT would satisfy me while still allowing everyone else who wants to use this feature to do so. Though, I still think it should really go away. Once a proper clutch and stalling are implemented it will become readily apparent how much of a benefit driving aids like auto-handbrake and auto-clutch are, and I think a lot more people are going to start complaining about the unfair advantage they provide.

Quote :

I mean, I'm in a racing server, so of course I want to go to the grid.

Yes, but realize that there are plenty of people out there who finish a race, then jump up to take a leak without going to spectate. The next race starts and they're sitting there, completely motionless on the starting grid when the lights go green. Having to click or do *something* that tells the game "I'm here and ready to go" would be a benefit to everyone. Whether that's clicking a button, moving the wheel side to side, pressing the brake/gas pedal, whatever.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

From what I can see, the only difference would be pressing on the brake pedal, or perhaps clicking a "go to grid" button. That hardly seems like it requires a lot of effort from the driver.

It requires almost no effort, you are correct IMO.

Quote from tristancliffe :

If the handbrake stays as it is, but is 'turn-offable' by pressing your handbrake button/axis, would that keep people happy for the time being? Is it the auto-handbrake (which to be fair WILL reduce startline carnage) or the fact it's not turn-offable except by moving the car?

The problem is this:
A) I can accept that the car appears on the grid with the handbrake engaged. That's not very far fetched at all. However, if that is the case, then the handbrake should not go off all by itself via some... (magic) force detection scheme, and certainly not without a fraction of a second penalty of some kind if you want to tell me that some nifty mechanism disengages it. You need an aid? You need a penalty. Not a huge one, but fractions of a second here & there for any aid. (edit: what I mean is that the car should be stuck for some amount of time with "autohandbrakemagicturnoff option enabled", since that mechanism IRL would take a small amount of time to disengage the brake)

B) If it's too much of a chore to turn the handbrake off manually (be still my bleeding heart), then it should not be engaged at all and amends need to be made to cause it to flow properly. Many types of these amends have already been mentioned. Mouse out of reach and too cumbersome? Fine, then make it that full brake indicates your readiness to race. No mouse, no keyboard, no buttons, no strained muscles or eyeballs necessary to indicate readiness to race. Not to mention, with that suggestion, your foot is already conveniently located on the brake, ready to stop the car from moving. Classy or what?

Quote from Shotglass :

sure but how does pushing more buttons on the starting grid change anything about the starting procedure other than that you will have to release 4 buttons the moment the lights turn green instead of 2 ?

You just answered your own question : Manually keeping your car in place via handbrake or ... foot brake is closer to RL than a magic handbrake :hide:

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

You just answered your own question : Manually keeping your car in place via handbrake or ... foot brake is closer to RL than a magic handbrake :hide:

but it doesnt change the starting procedure in any way that makes a difference as to how fast the driver takes off and as such has no relevance

Lets imagine that teleporting into the grid is like entering a engine running car, placed on the grid by your mechanics.
To place a car with running engine on a sloppy ground, you need to switch into neutral and lock on your handbrake.
Now it's player's turn to enter a car. What he has to do first to start?
Yes, he has to switch off the handbrake.
I see no more questions.

When we will have car on the grid with engine turned off, then we can start to thing about leaving it on gear without handbrake applied.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

That's understandable. I'm not big on typing or pressing keys myself, but I don't think that one click after each race is a big deal. That's like once every 10 minutes, even for fairly short races. How about "Hold brake to go to grid" or something like that? You hold the brake for 2 seconds and it takes you to the grid, with you holding the brakes, and no handbrake engaged. That would satisfy me.

Only thing that comes to my mind why this might not be possible is the small movement you get with using normal brakes on up/downhills without handbrake. Something to do with driving on polygons or vertices or something. The main thing is that the car wouldn't necessarily stay on place with footbrake on 100%. even if the movement was minimal it may cause problems...

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Here's another idea: How about having auto-handbrake a toggleable driving aid, just like auto-blip, auto-cut, and auto-clutch? So long as it's reported by an InSim packet, people like me who want to run no-aids servers could detect that it's being used and kick that person to spectate. THAT would satisfy me while still allowing everyone else who wants to use this feature to do so. Though, I still think it should really go away. Once a proper clutch and stalling are implemented it will become readily apparent how much of a benefit driving aids like auto-handbrake and auto-clutch are, and I think a lot more people are going to start complaining about the unfair advantage they provide.

How would this auto-handbrake differ fro normal handbrake? Imho, the handbrake should not be toggleable becase handbrake should be possible to use while driving too . But the toggleability is a nice thing if you want to park your car to some place, for screenshots or something...

Quote from Cue-Ball :

That's understandable. I'm not big on typing or Yes, but realize that there are plenty of people out there who finish a race, then jump up to take a leak without going to spectate. The next race starts and they're sitting there, completely motionless on the starting grid when the lights go green. Having to click or do *something* that tells the game "I'm here and ready to go" would be a benefit to everyone. Whether that's clicking a button, moving the wheel side to side, pressing the brake/gas pedal, whatever.

Yeah, sounds like a perfect solution

Quote from Shotglass :

but it doesnt change the starting procedure in any way that makes a difference as to how fast the driver takes off and as such has no relevance

It has relevance with regards to how things work in the real world.

In real life you either have to heel/toe the brake and gas while releasing the clutch, or you have to release the clutch and handbrake at the right time, while pressing the gas, to get a good start. Even on totally flat start lines, drivers often have to keep their foot on the brake because the clutch can cause the car to creep forward (I've seen this in V8 Supercar and BTCC many, many times).

Currently in LFS two pedal users simply mash the gas to the floor, don't worry about rolling, then drop the car in gear when the lights go green. Three pedal users mash the gas to the floor, keep the car in first, then pop the clutch when the lights go green.

Now, are you trying to tell me that both of those situations are equal? I hardly think so. Now, think for a moment about how much MORE difficult getting a good start is going to be for three pedal users once we have stalling and proper longitudinal tire behavior. People using three pedals will have to release the brake, hit the gas, and release the clutch - all of which has to be done just right because too little gas or too quick of a clutch release will stall the car, but too much gas will break loose the tires. While, as before, the people using auto clutch and auto-handbrake will just click down into first gear and pull away cleanly, because the auto-clutch and auto-handbrake will take care of everything like magic.

This will have to be addressed eventually. We might as well discuss it and start thinking about solutions now. Of all the other serious race sims on the market, do ANY of them have an auto-handbrake? I've never seen one. Yet, somehow, they manage to have online races just fine. So why is it such a problem for LFS?

Quote from Shotglass :

but it doesnt change the starting procedure in any way that makes a difference as to how fast the driver takes off and as such has no relevance

Indeed, no difference to take off speed (or is there?), but relevance is not based on that in my world It is in yours, and I respect that - so we just plain don't agree, and probably will not on this matter

Quote from yaper :

Now it's player's turn to enter a car. What he has to do first to start?
Yes, he has to switch off the handbrake.
I see no more questions.

Exactly.

However, pressing buttons pains most people to great lengths apparantly. Imagine the thought of using the starter, hopefully in the incompatible patch - the horror is overwhelming me just thinking about it

Gear should come down automatically in all flight sims too, I'm sure most pilots would rather not have to put it down manually. I'm sure something could be rigged to the altimeter to put it down manually IRL...

Quote from Shotglass :

sure but how does pushing more buttons on the starting grid change anything about the starting procedure other than that you will have to release 4 buttons the moment the lights turn green instead of 2 ?

I think as we will have more realistic drive-train/engine simulation in the future, we should be a able to stall/bog down the engine if you try to release the clutch with handbrake on. When that is simulated, the freedom provided in this procedure will be that - we will have a choice to use the handbrake to hold ourselves in position, or we disengage the handbrake and use the footbrake, both procedure will have their own advantage/disadvantage.

Quote from yaper :

When we will have car on the grid with engine turned off, then we can start to thing about leaving it on gear without handbrake applied.

That sounds like a fine idea to me. Even better, the starting of the engine could signal the game that you are present and ready to race. If you haven't started your car by the time the red lights come on, you are spectated. No holding of the brake, no clicking a dialog box. You just start your car as you normally would and prepare to go. If you start your car without clutching and roll on the start line, then I guess you have to learn how to operate a motor vehicle.

Quote from geeman1 :

That's right. Since LFS is still a game, it needs to be equally 'fun' to everybody with all kinds of different hardware and needs. Which has been pretty succesfull and has made this the popular and userfriendly sim that LFS is.

no.

LFS don't have to appeal to arcade gamers,so that's not EVERYBODY.

If LFS is popular among simmers, that's enough.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Only thing that comes to my mind why this might not be possible is the small movement you get with using normal brakes on up/downhills without handbrake. Something to do with driving on polygons or vertices or something. The main thing is that the car wouldn't necessarily stay on place with footbrake on 100%. even if the movement was minimal it may cause problems...

I don't think that will be an issue, no matter what the final resolution. Scawen said that you have to move a certain distance before you get a penalty. I'm fairly certain that moving an inch or two would not be enough to get penalized.

Quote from Shotglass :

simulations are about physics not about hurting playability

I am very sure that releasing the virtual handbrake by lifting the virtual handbrake lever must be a thing of very basic physics?

Quote from VT-1 :

Cue-Ball

More the problem is the teleporting to the grid, if there was a pop up, to let peple know the race was starting, and to press to get to grid, or if there are formation laps, then i can see not needing the Auto Hand Brake.

I don't exactly understand, you get a count down for every race restart, so that's not enough to notify someone a race is starting?

Quote from JJ72 :

I don't exactly understand, you get a count down for every race restart, so that's not enough to notify someone a race is starting?

I guess you just missed half of the thread. The problems caused by just removing auto-handbrake have been said couple of times in this thread already.

Quote from JJ72 :

I don't exactly understand, you get a count down for every race restart, so that's not enough to notify someone a race is starting?

Not if the person has stepped away from their machine for whatever reason. Quite often people step away after they finish to get a drink, use the bathroom, whatever. Very seldom do they spectate before walking away, so if the race starts before they get back they sit on the start line when the race goes green.

edit: I may have misunderstood what you were asking. I'm not sure.

Actually, there wouldn't have to be any confirmation ready thing before the race starts. If you weren't there to stop your car, you would roll the 4 odd meters and get sent spectate automatically.

Quote from Blackout :

Actually, there wouldn't have to be any confirmation ready thing before the race starts. If you weren't there to stop your car, you would roll the 4 odd meters and get sent spectate automatically.

lol! Quite true! I didn't think of that.

Is the roll distance really 4 meters? Wow. That's a huge allowance. I've seen real life racers penalized for rolling less than a foot!

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Is the roll distance really 4 meters? Wow. That's a huge allowance. I've seen real life racers penalized for rolling less than a foot!

You get penalized for less, but on the 4 meter mark you get spectated.

Quote from geeman1 :

You get penalized for less, but on the 4 meter mark you get spectated.

Ah, okay. I hadn't paid much attention to exactly what the penalties were for rolling.

Out of curiosity, what's the distance between cars on the grid? 5 meters or so? Anyone know?

That can be measured in SHIFT+U and pressing D. In Blackwood, from nose to nose about 16m.

Although, it seems that to get spectated, you need to move with real speed, rolling doesn't seem to be enough with the current test patch, obviously.

edit. Oh wait, rolling is enough. I was and idiot and tested in single player previously.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Only thing that comes to my mind why this might not be possible is the small movement you get with using normal brakes on up/downhills without handbrake. Something to do with driving on polygons or vertices or something. The main thing is that the car wouldn't necessarily stay on place with footbrake on 100%. even if the movement was minimal it may cause problems...

If this ever was going to be an issue then it would right now anyway. The handbrake is just brake applied to the rear wheels, whereas with the brake pedal obviously it's all 4 wheels. My point is that it's the same physics engine that handles the current situation with the handbrake; and it doesn't happen now - so this is a non issue.

Quote from JJ72 :

I don't exactly understand, you get a count down for every race restart, so that's not enough to notify someone a race is starting?

The problem with just starting, without letting people have some kind of input is this:

Race restarts,
Player is in bathroom,
Car teleports to grid position 4, Balckwood
Car rolls down hill hitting car in position 2

You can sub player in bathroom, with anything, player not paying attention, player on phone, player ???

If you need to hit a OK button before being teleported to the start position, this will not happen. The race will start, but you will not be in position 4, you will be spectating, or starting from the pits.

Come to think of it, this is exactly how RFactor, GTL, GTR all do it. When the race starts, you get sent to the pits, then have to hit race to teleport the the start grid. The only thing i hate about those games is it gives player like 20 seconds to hit "race", which does not seem long, but when you are sitting on the line waiting for the race to start, feels like forever.

Quote from VT-1 :

The problem with just starting, without letting people have some kind of input is this:

Race restarts,
Player is in bathroom,
Car teleports to grid position 4, Balckwood
Car rolls down hill hitting car in position 2

By the time the car would reach the other car you would be forced to spectate.

Quote from Blackout :

By the time the car would reach the other car you would be forced to spectate.

True

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

If this ever was going to be an issue then it would right now anyway. The handbrake is just brake applied to the rear wheels, whereas with the brake pedal obviously it's all 4 wheels. My point is that it's the same physics engine that handles the current situation with the handbrake; and it doesn't happen now - so this is a non issue.

Actually there is more different than that. I remember that few years ago at RSC there was some debate about that the cars sliding down the hills with full brakes applied. I think even Scawen replied i that thread and explained... something. The point is that the handbrake isn't just a physical brake with rear wheels only in LFS when the cars stops. Iirc