The online racing simulator
Rfactor vs LFS
(1872 posts, started )
Quote from Shotglass :the problem is the 'large enough' bit
when is a table large enough for the interpolation to work out

with a very large table you will approach the finesse of a forumla based system but eventually constant lookups interpolations and memory usage will grow larger than if you had used a forumla based approach in the first place
at that point you wont gain any cpu cycles to use for other parts of the sim and youll be stuck with an inherently flawed mathod that works just as good

of course if the code is well written it should be a no brainer to change the lookup method into a forumla based method (the weaving it into the current codebase not the actual working out the forumla and coding it bit)

also simulating different kinds of tyres/turbos/engines becomes a bitch with lookup tables ... think changing a few thousand matrix elements vs a few constants in a forumla

Doing a really mean engine model like Euro did is not really possible in real time. I wrote a couple of engine simulations like he described, one of which is a two stroke model for the next Virtual RC Racing. While that one can run in just a couple of seconds, my latest four stroke model takes about five minutes to generate a complete torque curve at only one throttle setting. It does something like ten to sixteen engine revolutions per rpm point, and I was using maybe twelve to fifteen points. So it essentially took five minutes for the engine to spin around 120-200 times or so. Pretty far off from real time obviously.

The old engine audio samples I did a couple years ago is actually a very simple engine simulation running in real time though. All eight cylinders are modelled, but it's too simplistic to generate anything useful other than audio.

In short, look up tables are just fine provided you can preprocess all that stuff during development if it's something that can take a long time, like engine simulation. The answer you get for "how much torque is there right now" is the same either way. You just have to make sure there are enough data points. Filling thousands of cells wouldn't be done manually, but rather by the simulation. There's just not a simple little formula that will model an engine remotely accurately, so a much more involved approach is needed and with today's CPU power, look up tables are a must.
Oh no. The waiting game begins. It's a cruel world.


But seriously this is great news. I'm sure many sim forum people are more than eager to get a taste of your physics engine Todd. I especially like that it will be a new form of motorsport that has not been done before as a sim.

Can you give us any more details? How big is the team? Are you the sole physics coder? What kind of involvement do real Kart engineers have in development? Will there be demos before release?
Hey Todd, is it finished already?

No?

...

...

What about now?

...

Awesome
Quote from J.B. :Oh no. The waiting game begins. It's a cruel world.


But seriously this is great news. I'm sure many sim forum people are more than eager to get a taste of your physics engine Todd. I especially like that it will be a new form of motorsport that has not been done before as a sim.

Can you give us any more details? How big is the team? Are you the sole physics coder? What kind of involvement do real Kart engineers have in development? Will there be demos before release?

The dev team consists of three of us. They were originally using Ogre for the physics engine, but I talked them into trying mine instead and now they're hooked So yes, I'm the sole physics guy. Zach is a kart racer himself and quite knowledgable in the dynamics end of things after years of setting up and racing his own kart, so together we ought to have it running quite like the real thing. They've arranged for me to take a spin or two in Jim Cassi's 28HP Rotax kart as well so I can know for sure how the real thing really runs. Also, the 2 stroke engine simulation I wrote for Virtual RC Racing 4 will be included as well so you can tinker with the engine a bit too by trying different exhaust pipes, fuel mixtures, etc.. It's very important in real karting so we want to include that. Actually, they originally wrote me with some questions on engines when I proposed they use the engine sim. Then figured, "hey, you want the physics engine too?" Off we went...

They have the interest of a tire manufacturer and at least one kart manufacturer, whose engineers have agreed to give us data. I'm not sure exactly what we can get from that (hopefully tire data at least), but it should improve things. Right now it's a hoot to drive. Better to drive than anything else in the karting market by a long shot according to those who've run it. But that goes without saying

As far as demos are concerned, I honestly have no idea when that will happen. I'm pretty sure we'll have a demo of some sort eventually. Can't imagine not having one. Got to get people hooked somehow
:thumbsup3 Hope this turns out successful

At least I'm sure you know what to do, as you've probably seen it all in the simracing world. Whenever you are in doubt, look at how LFS did it, do it better and be successful. Whenever you think about the priority of things, look at how nKP did it, and do your best not to repeat that. Easy formula, easy win. Please tell me if someone needs some more smilies to not be offended by what I just said.
The engine modeling sounds interesting Will we be able to change the jetting on the move with karts that can do this?

Hopefully you'll enjoy your run in a Rotax, will we see a Rotax in game or is there licensing complications?
Quote from jtw62074 :The dev team consists of three of us. They were originally using Ogre for the physics engine, but I talked them into trying mine instead and now they're hooked So yes, I'm the sole physics guy. Zach is a kart racer himself and quite knowledgable in the dynamics end of things after years of setting up and racing his own kart, so together we ought to have it running quite like the real thing. They've arranged for me to take a spin or two in Jim Cassi's 28HP Rotax kart as well so I can know for sure how the real thing really runs. Also, the 2 stroke engine simulation I wrote for Virtual RC Racing 4 will be included as well so you can tinker with the engine a bit too by trying different exhaust pipes, fuel mixtures, etc.. It's very important in real karting so we want to include that. Actually, they originally wrote me with some questions on engines when I proposed they use the engine sim. Then figured, "hey, you want the physics engine too?" Off we went...

They have the interest of a tire manufacturer and at least one kart manufacturer, whose engineers have agreed to give us data. I'm not sure exactly what we can get from that (hopefully tire data at least), but it should improve things. Right now it's a hoot to drive. Better to drive than anything else in the karting market by a long shot according to those who've run it. But that goes without saying

As far as demos are concerned, I honestly have no idea when that will happen. I'm pretty sure we'll have a demo of some sort eventually. Can't imagine not having one. Got to get people hooked somehow

Sounds excellent, can't think of anything to complain about. :up: I wish you luck and don't let yourself get put down by the the people who sooner or later are going to start flaming you everywhere for not working fast enough.
Thanks for the kind words and encouragement, guys. Means a lot to me

Quote from keiran :The engine modeling sounds interesting Will we be able to change the jetting on the move with karts that can do this?

Hopefully you'll enjoy your run in a Rotax, will we see a Rotax in game or is there licensing complications?

The engine model takes a couple seconds to produce a full torque curve and so on at one mixture setting, so I'm not sure we'll have it adjustable on the fly. Real karters do this though so it's important to have, I feel. Perhaps I can find a way to pull it off. Would be cool to have

I hope we can get Rotax karts into the sim. There is at least one kart manufacturer interested in working with us, but I don't know who that is. Hopefully we can get a lot of manufacturers on board so we have plenty of brands included. I don't think it will be too difficult. This isn't a big dollar series like Nascar or F1 and the like. With VRC we had no trouble getting people involved for free. Literally everybody we asked got on board with no requests for money. I imagine the karting world would be similar.
For any still interested in purely kart stuff. Here's Matt Wall, karting Champion in Australia, Japan, and damn near it in the Austrian series, taking a spin at the show.

http://www.karting1.co.uk/news/

That's on a huge 3D projector setup that covers a wall in front of him. I wish I could try that myself, hehe...
Hey, that looks great, but I think the steer look would've driven me crazy :twirl:
Quote from AndroidXP :Hey, that look great, but I think the steer look would've driven me crazy :twirl:

hehe, yes it's optional of course, but that's how I like to play LFS and I'm the other programmer on KartSim :P
LFS VS RF .. I love them both.....
Oh noes...not again
boo at you for digging up a year-old-topic that will now heat up again...

*sigh*
Oh yes...zombie threads!
like that Slipknot song goes....HERE WE GO AGAIN MOTHER******!!!!!!! :rolleyes:
didn't the devs say they don't like comparing their simulator againced others?
Quote from Scawen :Yes, you can compare S2 Alpha with anything you like

Check and mate. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to compare LFS S2 to Redline Rumble, and I have to say that LFS is somewhat better!
Yes, the devs said that, but it's still going to happen among us simple end users. I am very much in love with LFS and plan to be for a long time. But why should that fact stop me from enjoying another sim? After all, it's my only chance to get my "real cars and track" fix when I feel the need for it.

I agree with delray25 that the V8 Supercar mod is one of the best things that has happened to rFactor. The only thing that could make that mod better is if it was released for LFS. I also enjoy DTM 2007, RaceX (Race - The WTCC Game conversion) and SportsCar Challenge.

So... I will continue to enjoy both sims and will not be a part of any pissing contest about which one is the better sim. They both stand on their own two feet
Quote from Zachary Zoomy :didn't the devs say they don't like comparing their simulator againced others?

just because they dont like to play "my daddy can beat the crap out of your mommy" themself and prefer to let their product speak for itself doesnt mean we cant
Quote from St4Lk3R :boo at you for digging up a year-old-topic that will now heat up again...

*sigh*

Isn't it funny how when someone digs up an old thread, they get beat up for it, yet if they started a new thread on the same topic, they would get beat up for that too (Do a search NOOB!)?

Aaaahh, forum nazis, i love you guys.............

Rfactor vs LFS
(1872 posts, started )
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