Quote from Bob Smith :

Ah, that would be Niels. I don't have rFactor, so haven't tried his mod (although he has tried to pursuade me to buy it ), although with his help LFS will be getting the....

...greatest selection of keyrings the world has ever seen?

Quote from jtw62074 :

Nice videos and site, Hallen.

A friend of mine ran a couple of Donkervoort series for a few years (open top Lotus 7 types) and filmed several of his races and so on. It took awhile for him to figure out how to get rid of the wind noise and let the engine sound come through more. Eventually, he stuck the microphone under the dashboard on the passenger side, up towards the firewall. This is the result:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dp7g1NAMNxE

I went for a couple of rides in this car, and the video sounds very much like it does in reality, although I couldn't hear the turbo like you can in the video. (The car pictured in the video is wrong, by the way, although the driver's name is correct. Wolfgang wasn't actually driving his own car here, but my friend's. We don't know how they got this video and were surprised to find it online )

Anyway, regarding mic placement, maybe you might want to try the same thing? It sounds rather windy, although the video quality is very nice!

Nice vid too, it is unfortunate that Youtube compression munches it so bad. That is why I got my own domain so I could host better videos.
I just use a Nikon digital camera for my videos. It is light weight, simple and mostly, it is cheap.
It does do 640x480 video at 30 frames per second, so you can't complain about that. The mic is on the camera and there is no way to put an external mic on it. I am going to try and rig up a muffler on the mic to try and reduce some of the wind noise. Unfortunately, that is not going to help you hear the car much. It is pretty quiet the way it is. It is just a street car and my daily driver so straight pipes are not an option.

Bob is playing tricks with us again, eh? Bad Bob, baaad Bob!

Very short Caterham video (like a LX6), but you can hear the engine sound OK:

cat1.wmv

Race 07's version, which is reasonably close.

r07obc3.wmv

Getting back on topic, why does there have to be a rFactor vs LFS unless someone in this thread thinks that one of the developers is going to make changes because of the other game?

In my opinion, it's nice to have choices, and in the USA, where racing sims aren't popular, the racing sims are cheap. GTR2+GTLegends combined for $20 (USA), Race 07 for $20 (USA) if ordered through an online store like EBGames. On the other hand a new release of Need For Speed will fetch $35 to $40 (USA) (and yes I like these games also).

Regarding rFactor, I think they "cheated". The basic game itself is reasonably nice, but the developers were counting on a lot of mods and tracks being made or converted to run on rFactor.

i tried to compared the handling in rfactor using Porsche Cup 2005, V8 Super Car , Corvette.. (I think these are good mods)

In LFS, I use FXO GTR and FXO (Street Version)
Many of you think that LFS has great car physics. I personally find the cars way too responsive compared to the mod in rfactor. I feel like driving a Formula car in LFS touring car series. Very responsive, very easy to save from mistake. I am using RaceS set up as installed by default..

The feel in LFS is like having a car with
-- Not enough body roll
-- the rear end can survive with extreme oversteering without spinning
-- The aerodynamics have way too much effect in handling. That may gives me the feeling of forumla cars
-- the car does not have enough weight, I feel like driving a 800kg thing instead of 1200kg

What brings to my point is that rfactor modders should be able to make car close to the handling of LFS, but the mods I use in rfactor, the cars are much more sluggish than LFS.. Even in GTR2, the cars are even more sluggish. I sometimes do not like GTR2 because the cars are too sluggish. It convinced me that the cars should be more sluggish in LFS because people are making sluggish cars.

Even I have watched a lot of U tube video, it cannot convince me that the car is as responsive as LFS cars.


Then I tried the forumla cars. I have CTDP 2005 in rfactor, the forumla car in LFS just cannot feel alright, I do not know what it is...

Quote from benoityip :

Stuff

You've never driven a real race car have you? Racing cars (all of them) are responsive. Few of them (that you mentioned) suffer from much body roll. They can all slide without spinning. All cars can. The fact you rarely see real cars doing it is because they are great drivers, and when they spin (even from what looks like a slight slide) they are right on the edge, and even they can't quite hold the slide.

And you've never driven a formula car? I've only driven old, soggy, slow ones and I can say for certain that no mod in rFactor is even close to reality. The GP79 mod is, in my opinion, utter pants, and that's the best one.

When you've driven racing cars (you may need photo proof of it because we're not trusting souls here) you can come back and say you're sorry.

Quote from tristancliffe :

stuff.

Damn, that's Two Posts from Tristan I agree completely with, in One Day!

Quote from benoityip :

The feel in LFS is like having a car with
-- Not enough body roll
-- the rear end can survive with extreme oversteering without spinning
-- The aerodynamics have way too much effect in handling. That may gives me the feeling of forumla cars
-- the car does not have enough weight, I feel like driving a 800kg thing instead of 1200kg

My experience is exactly the opposite. The body roll is exactly as I'd expect it to be, and was actually one of the things that attracted me to LFS in the first instance. If you want, you can set your suspension to much more factory/"street" style, and experience lots of body roll. But this is a racing sim, and even the road cars are sports-oriented by default.

I disagree about the aerodynamics. If anything, the aero is lacking and there's too much mechanical grip in LFS to compensate for it.

The weight issue you raise seems like nonsense to me, too.. but I think once you de-tune your LFS car suspension, you'll find your weight.

too responsive cars in lfs ? thats a new one oO

anyway with most of your points you have to keep in mind that you can tune all cars in lfs to an almost ridiculous (albeit downright amazing when it comes to displaying the physics engine) degree and that applies even to the default setups
somewhere in the bowels of this forum you should be able to find a bunch of road going setups created by bob smith which make all of the road cars feel much more like your daily commuter

also have you played rfactor with the default ffb or the realfeel plugin ?
realfeel will make the cars drive a lot more like lfs and if you havent i believe youll find that a large part of rfactors sluggishness boils down to what most here would refer to as the usual floaty feel of isi sims which to a large degree is to blame on the useless ffb (like a hovercraft driving on an excel spreadsheet as toni put it once)

the thing that i really dont get in your post is the criticism about the cars weight or rather how you feel it while driving
my experience with rfactor and lfs is pretty much the polar opposite of what you describe in that lfs is the only sim (maybe rbr has a shot in that department as well) that convinces me im driving a car that has some weight to it as opposed to any isi car which never seems to roll at all and generally conveys more of a point and click adventure type of gameplay to me
"drive car through corner"


and you might want to look into 'how to use the intarblag' again and reread the chapter about images

Quote from Shotglass :

and you might want to look into 'how to use the intarblag' again and reread the chapter about images

Priceless....




The only thing that doesn't do it for me with LFS is in the middle of the corners. I don't have experience behind the wheel of a race car. But I've seen plenty of onboard footage. If you watch online footage of real racing, you hear the drivers brake, turn in, then ease around or go part throttle around the apex very often. I don't know if it's the physics, the way corners are laid out, or what in LFS, but we have none of the coasting or part throttle around corners. LFS corners are taken as brake, turn-in, full throttle, exit. There is no middle where you have to modulate the throttle mid-corner. I'm strictly thinking in the tin-top sense though as I'm not fond of the open wheelers.

Tristan or anyone else who's had track time or race car time? What are your thoughts to that having driven race cars? Does that have to do with LFS's track corners, the physics, the tires, what? A common thought is probably the 'fear factor', but I really don't think that is it. The 'fear factor' or 'seat of the pants feel' may have something to do with it, but I am thinking that is not entirely the reason.

Well, one thing is the abundance of turbo lag within the abundance of turbo cars in the tin tops. The other thing is setups that are VERY heavy on oversteer, and crazy locked differentials that match the setup which are designed for full throttle exits. I hope one day locked diffs will put stress on things and so longer races might get you into trouble. Gearing can also be tuned in LFS to put the exact right amount of torque to the wheels for a given corner, so there's lots of luxuries that you can tune for this to be possible / easier in LFS.

If we were able to compare something with power like a C6 with a stock setup inside LFS, I would bet that full throttle exits aren't nearly as easy to do (drifting notwithstanding)

I think it's mainly because LFS setups are perfect - tens of thousands of laps, in cars that never change, and never deflect. Tracks that don't vary in grip, so we know EXACTLY where to accelerate every single lap.

If you were new to LFS, worked out a good, realistic setup theoretically, and attemped 30 laps then you'd struggle to get the power on so early.

Quote from mrodgers :

Priceless....




The only thing that doesn't do it for me with LFS is in the middle of the corners. I don't have experience behind the wheel of a race car. But I've seen plenty of onboard footage. If you watch online footage of real racing, you hear the drivers brake, turn in, then ease around or go part throttle around the apex very often. I don't know if it's the physics, the way corners are laid out, or what in LFS, but we have none of the coasting or part throttle around corners. LFS corners are taken as brake, turn-in, full throttle, exit. There is no middle where you have to modulate the throttle mid-corner. I'm strictly thinking in the tin-top sense though as I'm not fond of the open wheelers.

Tristan or anyone else who's had track time or race car time? What are your thoughts to that having driven race cars? Does that have to do with LFS's track corners, the physics, the tires, what? A common thought is probably the 'fear factor', but I really don't think that is it. The 'fear factor' or 'seat of the pants feel' may have something to do with it, but I am thinking that is not entirely the reason.

The reason it is done in the real world is to stabilize the rear of the car and to maintain speed through a corner (coming from a guy with a few hundred track day laps, so FWIW). You want to keep the tires as close to the edge as possible and if you don't apply power through a corner, you will slow down. But, stabilizing the rear via weight transfer is one of the bigger reasons for doing it. If you ever do a track day with an instructor, they will harp on you to keep your foot on the gas. It helps to keep you pointed in the right direction.
I think inside LFS, or any Sim, people do basically what Tristian says. They can practice so much on completely predictable surfaces, that they can get it perfect. Also, because of the setup options we have, it makes it possible to aggressively trail brake into corners where it just wouldn't work as well in the real world.
There are corners in LFS where throttle maintenance is needed. Turn 5 on KY National is a good example. If you are in the LX6 for example, you can't just mash the gas once you turn in. You let some speed bleed off while maintaining a bit of throttle, and then your roll the throttle back in again at the right time.
But, mostly it is just the ammount of practice and the aliens. I have to coast a bit on some corners and use maintenance throttle. I can't just trail brake, and then floor it like some can.

Good posts from all of you about that. Tristan I think hits it pretty good. I hadn't thought about track "stability" I'll call it. IRL, the run tomorrow won't be the same as the run today. But LFS is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, next week, next month, all up to the next possible tweak in a patch.

Yeah, there are indeed a few corners that take throttle management, but the very large majority are brake, turn, mash corners, even for a slow guy like me.

Quote from mrodgers :

but the very large majority are brake, turn, mash corners, even for a slow guy like me.

Then if that technique works for you all the time, then you're probably not getting on the throttle as early as it's possible

Quote from bbman :

I have a theory: Couldn't it be that by turning the front wheels, you get quite some slip angles? With the grip drop-off beyond the limit, exaggerated by the solid, non-flexing tyres couldn't that be the cause for the horrendous understeer until the rear snaps loose, or am I completely lost?

I just know I tried to simulate one or two cars from rFactor-mods as close as possible (with the help of ValueMod), set them up exactly the same and there was no understeer whatsoever, not even at speed...

Still curious what you guys think of my theory...

Quote from benoityip :

i tried to compared the handling in rfactor using Porsche Cup 2005, V8 Super Car , Corvette.. (I think these are good mods)

In LFS, I use FXO GTR and FXO (Street Version)

So you tried comparing handling physics of a couple of 5-600hp rear wheel drive cars with a 450hp all wheel drive car and a 200hp front wheel drive?

Hmmmmm, makes a lot of sense............. NOT. Try your comparisons with at least similar sorts of cars to sound at least a little credible.

@Damo74: It's not the first time he's doing that either...
http://forum.rscnet.org/showthread.php?p=3581087

Quote from benoityip @ RSC :

Please look at these two videos. I find it hard to find a GT cars in a street circuit, here is the Civic EK9 in Macau and LFS south city XR GTR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dibQ8d1hEuI and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kn1NcxICwVg

and please look at 1:19 of the Civic EK9 Video, the civic is losing control coze of oversteering, this should be happening in LFS, but LFS will allow you to continute to oversteer instead of losing control, both cars are FWD cars except the Civic has weaker power. I would like you guys to compare the handling in these two videos

@benoityip: No offence, you try to be critical and compare things, but every time you do it reinforces the assumption that you have no idea what you are talking about.

I've been making a .. crazy version of the corvette, stiffer, 650hp and up to 36 degrees of steering lock.

The main thing rFactor doesn't do is proper tire force combining. LFS also doesn't do this very well, but 'differently wrongish' most likely. Thats probably where the main differences come from.

When I use tires in rFactor that behave fairly realistically under combined circumstances, its very driftable and believable. But then in a straight line, longitudinal grip is a little odd and the car is a bit floaty..

I hope to do a video later as this is the first time I did some proper ''drifting'', with fair repeatability.. Drifting as in oversteer in, out and inbetween corners instead of the powersliding i used to do..

Niels, I think that you'll have to update your avatar quite a few times before 2008

Think Niels is a physical guy to pull that off

It's not like Niels is the selling force of rFactor over here (which would be sad in a way), but I'm not ashamed to have purchased rFactor when it came out.

Though Niels would have helluva harder time to make a truthful 'I made Spanky re-install rFactor' avatar any time soon.

hahaha, there is only so much I can do

Quote from mrodgers :

LFS corners are taken as brake, turn-in, full throttle, exit. There is no middle where you have to modulate the throttle mid-corner.

Going straight from trail braking to as much throttle as you can is the fastest way to drive. A lot of real life drivers don't trail brake though because they're worried about getting it wrong and have very little pressured car time where they can just try things out. Generally the faster racers IRL do drive much more like your describing, which isn't the only way to drive in LFS either. Of course IRL very few drivers are as near to the limits of the car due to lack of track time, variable conditions and the fact that driving a car is more physically and mentally demanding IRL.

Not to mention expensive if you mess it up...