The best and really the only way to pass someone in F1 is to wait for the person in front of you to make a mistake. Get the tail out a bit or miss braking point. The likelyness of an error is now much bigger than it was before with traction control/etc. that nannied you and prevented any mistakes from the driver. Sure, driving right somene is hard in F1 but not impossible. With the lesser electronics we might see more errors from drivers at Monaco, maybe we even see a pass (1) in Monaco this year

All I can tell is that getting rid of all that fancy electronics will cause more passing opportunities because of more driving errors. Massa certainly is suffering. Also lot of drivers make mistakes during the race when in 2007 it was an "event" when someone "lost it".

Just make the cars less aero dependant with harder, less grippy tires and the driving skills of the drivers will shine through the equipment.

Quote from Hyperactive :

The best and really the only way to pass someone in F1 is to wait for the person in front of you to make a mistake. Get the tail out a bit or miss braking point. The likelyness of an error is now much bigger than it was before with traction control/etc. that nannied you and prevented any mistakes from the driver. Sure, driving right somene is hard in F1 but not impossible. With the lesser electronics we might see more errors from drivers at Monaco, maybe we even see a pass (1) in Monaco this year

All I can tell is that getting rid of all that fancy electronics will cause more passing opportunities because of more driving errors. Massa certainly is suffering. Also lot of drivers make mistakes during the race when in 2007 it was an "event" when someone "lost it".

Just make the cars less aero dependant with harder, less grippy tires and the driving skills of the drivers will shine through the equipment.

I agree that now it´s easier to overtake someone due to mistakes. But i miss the normal overtakings. If you have a slower car in front of you after exiting pits you are doomed

Anyway the plan´s for 2009 go right in the direction you point. Less downforce and more mechanical grip. And the possibility of having a variable front wing to help following another car!

An F1 technical director said, a year or two ago, that if you put all the F1 drivers in GP2 cars you still wouldn't see overtaking much. The trouble isn't so much the cars, but the fact all the drivers are really good (except Massa. And Davidson). The cars are also virtually equal.

F1 has never EVER had lots of passing for years at a time. The 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s have been devoid of passing like people seem to 'want' (apart from the odd race here and there, but they were almost certainly due to odd circumstances). Yet F1 remains the most popular motorsport in the world (apart from NASCAR perhaps, but they aren't really cars. They're more like tree-houses).

I watched some A1GP last night (Mexico City, won by Ireland/Caroll thingymebob). Lots of passing. But it was dull as ditchwater - you didn't care about the teams, the drivers are all 'F1/GP2/F3 rejects', and the only reason for 99% of the passes was that horrible Powerboost thing (which sounds like something you put in your washing machine... speaking of which, I have to empty mine).

This year F1 is more about stability and driveability, because the electronics aren't there to help counteract unstable aerodynamics etc. The drivers have much more control of attitude and yaw, and can therefore balance the understeer in much more inventive ways. You won't see that yet, because there are too many tyre wear issues, and the drivers aren't fully used to it yet. But this removing of aids will increase overtaking. Without doubt.

Such a shame that the tender was given to two companies obviously incapable of making ECUs properly.

Lots of people seem to think that 2009 will be the holy grail of F1. It won't. Don't forget there have been HUNDREDS of regulation shake-ups over the years, and the pecking order rarely changes. Ferrari and McLaren will still be best. Massa will still be incapable. Super Aguri will still go broke. Toyota will still underperform... The status quo won't change. But for the technical enthusiast (like me) it'll be BRILLIANT watching the teams try new things, and the Armchair Enthusiast will fail to see what is now so good when the races seem exactly the same but with bigger numbers on the lap time chart...

Edit: Normal overtakes? Like when? Can you really name one move when two equally fast cars overtook each other, without mistakes or reliability were part of the problem, or the car behind being a lot quicker anyway? You've always been lucky to see one per season. Why would that change just because the cars go round corners 5mph slower?

Quote from Hyperactive :

Just make the cars less aero dependant with harder, less grippy tires and the driving skills of the drivers will shine through the equipment.

Less grippy tyres? I think especially now without TC the cars in a desperate need of slicks.

http://f1.automoto365.com/news ... ewsForm&news_id=28599

Here's the 2009 proposal made last year. I couldn't find a more reliable looking link. That site looks a bit odd.

Bottom line; from proposal to actual regulation is a long way in FIA...

Silly moveable wings, and move oversteer following another car (1% reduction in rear downforce relative to front)... They're playing with fire if you ask me. Next we'll have sin-bins, push-to-pass, one-make chassis, and F1 will be as dull as A1GP/GP2 etc.

Quote from deggis :

Less grippy tyres? I think especially now without TC the cars in a desperate need of slicks.

http://f1.automoto365.com/news ... ewsForm&news_id=28599

Here's the 2009 proposal made last year. I couldn't find a more reliable looking link. That site looks a bit odd.

Bottom line; from proposal to actual regulation is a long way in FIA...

I heard Pedro de la Rosa explaining that new rules. He said that 50% less downforce is too much and that the final loss will be more like a 30%.

Tristan is right about the level of the drivers. Overtaking in F1 is and will be hard, but let´s hope that 2009 will make it a little bit easier.

"- The driver may adjust the front wing flaps from the cockpit twice a lap by an angle of a maximum 6 degrees."

Oh, for goodness sake!

Quote from mrbogeyman :

I have been in Kuala Lumpur for the past 8 weeks and I am going to the Grand Prix! Yay! My first one!

8 weeks! I visited KL for two days which was as much as I could take.
I did go & see the A1GP race at Sepang, beware the heat & take a big bottle of water with you.

What did you think of the place?

Quote from tristancliffe :

F1 has never EVER had lots of passing for years at a time. The 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and 00s have been devoid of passing like people seem to 'want' (apart from the odd race here and there, but they were almost certainly due to odd circumstances).

Do you mean in your opinion F1 never had more passing than it now has?

It will be interesting to see how the designers sculpt the shape of the car without all the winglets to direct the airflow.

Quote from dungbeetle :

"- The driver may adjust the front wing flaps from the cockpit twice a lap by an angle of a maximum 6 degrees."

Oh, for goodness sake!

Next thing we know they will be introducing adjustable upforce so that they can leap frog cars, rather than overtake

Quote from deggis :

Do you mean in your opinion F1 never had more passing than it now has?

Pretty much, yes. Always exceptions of course, but not that many.

You might point to Piquet vs Mansell, or Arnoux vs Villeneuve, but they were exceptions.

As soon as you put the best drivers in the best cars, and allows the quickest to start at the front then you pretty make overtaking rare. If a driver is out of position (poor qualifying or whatever), or the track's grip varies (wet) then you get a lot more passing.

There isn't a sensible way of putting fast people near the back (reversed grids wouldn't work, inverting the top x places is artificial etc), so the only way to make passing more frequent is to increase the liklihood of mistakes and decrease their impact a bit - slick tyres (more forgiving), less downforce (less problems following cars), harder tyres (lower braking capacity), and no driver aids will only go some way to improving the racing.

the reason for the few overtakes in malaysia is the track.
I wonder how many of you have tried having a go at that track in your simulators?
Last time I did (EA sports F12003, I think), the track was the current one - a NIGHTMARE of closing-radius corners, where the braking zones are in bends, meaning you either brake softly, or you eat grass.
That makes inside-line underbraking damn near impossible in many bends, especially in the bend leading to the backstraight - that one is problably the WORST braking point I have ever seen - slightly uphill (you cant see much of where you'r going), turning substantially right, and braking.
Just about the only places to really overtake are :
T1, but since it is followed but a pretty hard left, if you dont complete the overtake IN t1, you are on the outside for t2, and get re-overtaken.
T4, a 2nd gear right hander, but it is (relativly close) followed by a 6th gear left hander, so once again, you'r on the outside - all depends on how well you can exit T4
T9 - another 2nd gear left hander, but this one is immediatly followed by (You guessed it) a right hander, meaning that ONCE AGAIN you are on the outside of a long turn, and are royally fecked.

the possible best 2 places to overtake - the bends leading to the backstraight and the main straight are -> a closing radius corner, making underbraking a nightmare and very risky.
A long constant radius corner, meaning that if you try to exit faster and do it nose-to-gearbox, youll get massive understeer on the exit and go eat grass, cow-style.

I hate that track. For godness sakes, a hard braking turn should be followed by a short straight so the cars have a chance to tuck in behind each other, and complete the overtake manouver! See the classics: Monza, Spa, Interlagos...

Quote from tristancliffe :

Next we'll have push-to-pass,etc.

Isn't this already planned for 2009? Only disguised as a system that recovers brake energy and said energy can then be used for a maximum of 5seconds per lap by pushing a button. Something like that, would have to dig the net to find the exact wording/specs.



edit : http://www.motorauthority.com/ ... generation-in-f1-by-2009/
The KERS is basically an efficient CVT gearbox joined to a flywheel that rotates when the cars undergo braking. The stored energy can then be used to boost acceleration for overtaking and cornering, and will work like the power-boost button seen in the A1GP.

http://www.motorauthority.com/ ... c-energy-recovery-system/
Under the new rules, which go into effect in 2009, the driver can only use the boost provided by the KERS system for a predetermined amount of time and at an established rate, much like the ‘Push to Pass’ technology in Champ Car World Series racing.

A few more changes like that and Fairly Intelligent Apes can be turned into Fairly Idiotic Apes imho

Quote :

The KERS system is basically a CVT connected to a flywheel that engages on deceleration, recuperating some of the energy that would otherwise be converted to heat in the brakes. This spins the flywheel up, which continues spinning until called upon to boost acceleration.

I rofled

Gotta say, A1GP is anything but dull.

I think, in a way, F1 is self defeating.

It's supposed to represent the pinnacle of motor racing technology and innovation.

The manufacturers constantly struggle to come up with new and better technologies to make their cars go faster.

The problem is, they're too good at it, and so the 'Formula' is there specifically to restrict what they're allowed to do. Maybe for safety reasons (cars are too fast for the tracks) or maybe to make sure no one gets too far ahead and trounces everyone else (boring racing) - who knows, maybe a bit of both.

For example, manufacturers could easily make their cars much lighter and could provide them with much more downforce, both enabling them to go much faster - but they're not allowed to.

So then it becomes a question of what they can do within the rules, as the rules gradually become more and more restrictive.

This leaves manufacturers with a very small window in which to work, which naturally results in cars that are all very similar in performance.

So, is it any wonder that there's not much overtaking going on, save for mechanical failure or driver error?

It's even in LFS, as Engine Brake Reduction.

Lol at the clutch comment. I have someone who does that sort of thing at work all the time

Quote from dungbeetle :

So, is it any wonder that there's not much overtaking going on, save for mechanical failure or driver error?

Or uneven driver skill. Or a mixed up qualifying grid.

I think it's in the nature of circuit racing that we won't get lots of passing. Perhaps we could devise a spec that would give us racing activity similar to Tour de France or something.

Heck LFS is the same way. Passing happens when someone crashes, or a faster guy is stuck behind someone slower. Once it all gets sorted out and the race establishes a sort of equilibrium, it's just hotlapping to the end.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Pretty much, yes. Always exceptions of course, but not that many.

If I had time, I would watch every single race since 1950, make statistics about the amount of passes per race/season/era and prove you wrong. Now F1 is in a point where even a faster car can't pass easily a slower car infront... if there's always 100 m of poisonous air between the cars, the faster one never gets to a point where it could try to overtake. If it wouldn't be like this, eventually and naturally there would more passing. Which was the case 10/20... years ago.

Quote :

You might point to Piquet vs Mansell, or Arnoux vs Villeneuve, but they were exceptions.

I wasn't going to.

Quote from tristancliffe :

You might point to Piquet vs Mansell, or Arnoux vs Villeneuve, but they were exceptions.

what about those glorious times in the 90s when lapped backmarkers overtook world champions to lap themself back?

Quote from dungbeetle :

So, is it any wonder that there's not much overtaking going on, save for mechanical failure or driver error?

Quote from Mattesa :

Or uneven driver skill....

Yeah.

In a way, I guess that's what they're trying to achieve. Keep the technological development in check, so it's mostly down to driver skill.

But that's what I meant when I said I thought Formula 1 was self defeating.

What's the point of having all this technological innovation and design, if they're gonna strangle it with the rules anyway?

Do you want a manufacturer's technology race, so we can see who can produce the quickest car, or do you want drivers in equal machinery, so we can see who's the best driver?

Make your minds up, FIA!

Quote from deggis :

If I had time, I would watch every single race since 1950, make statistics about the amount of passes per race/season/era and prove you wrong. Now F1 is in a point where even a faster car can't pass easily a slower car infront... if there's always 100 m of poisonous air between the cars, the faster one never gets to a point where it could try to overtake. If it wouldn't be like this, eventually and naturally there would more passing. Which was the case 10/20... years ago.


I wasn't going to.

Do you not remember in the 80s and 90s how everyone said "it's virtually impossible to pass" and "there's no passing in F1 these days, not like 5/10/15/20/25 years ago [delete as applicable]".

There have ALWAYS been complaining that it was better/more exciting/whatever 10/20 years ago. That won't change. In 10/20 years ago we'll long for those exciting days of Lewis versus Kimi, even though at the time it wasn't filled with much actual overtaking.

Quote from dungbeetle :

In a way, I guess that's what they're trying to achieve. Keep the technological development in check, so it's mostly down to driver skill.

...
Do you want a manufacturer's technology race, so we can see who can produce the quickest car, or do you want drivers in equal machinery, so we can see who's the best driver?

But I think that's self defeating as well.

Consider that after qualifying we'll know who the fastest guy is. Then 10 laps into the race after the requisite T1 carnage, and after all the faster guys have passed all the slower ones, we've established qualifying order again, and we'll have a 50 lap hotlapping session to the checkers.

Seeing Hamilton struggling with Webber with Trulli hanging on was quite fun. If Lewis had passed Webber right away, then sure we could +1 that pass into the stats book, but then what? Webber wouldn't be challenging Hamilton again after that.

Quote from dungbeetle :

Do you want a manufacturer's technology race, so we can see who can produce the quickest car, or do you want drivers in equal machinery, so we can see who's the best driver?

Both. This is F1, where car development and driver skill are compared at the same time. Hence having a constructors championship, and hence why customer cars are a bad idea these days (because most customers would buy all the time, rather than buying until they can make their own like, say, Williams did).