I honestly do not want to sound rude or anything, since everyone is entitled to their opinion and I can definitely see why F1 is not as interesting to some people (as it used to be?) but why do you still watch/care about F1 if all you do is complain about it?
I honestly do not want to sound rude or anything, since everyone is entitled to their opinion and I can definitely see why F1 is not as interesting to some people (as it used to be?) but why do you still watch/care about F1 if all you do is complain about it?
Thankfully they'll be banned in a couple of years time..
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Sweeping rule changes have always been part and parcel of F1 for as long as i can remember. Some big changes, i.e getting rid of skirts, were actually enforced mid-season. I've got a feeling turbos were banned mid-season too (although i'm sure some google intellectual will put me right on that one)
The difference these days is, the rule changes are made in an attempt to appease the television viewer. Whereas in the past, the changes were made primarily for safety and fairness.
Back in the late 70's early 80's, F1 was actually a minority sport as far as TV audiences were concerned. And it's only because Bernie and his ilk wanted to milk it for even penny they could, when they realised they couldn't hack it as team managers.
In general racing terms F1 has always, always been boring, but, in the past, the excitement came (partly) with the unreliability of the technology. If you remember the 89 season (i think it was 89 ?) Senna either won the race, crashed, or his car fell apart. And this lead to Prost taking the title, even though he won less races than Senna. A similar thing happened in 82 when Keke Rosberg became champion, he only won one race. Interestingly, the points at the time went 9,6,4,3,2,1. Which brings in the other thread about the points system rewarding winners, or not..
It'll be interesting to see how 2009 pans out with the new rules (although personally i'm not keen on a few of them), but if you, as a motorsports fan want to see close action and plenty of overtaking. Then i'd suggest you go watch MotoGP, WSBK, WTCC or something similar. Stop whinging, and leave us life-long diehard F1 fanatics alone so we can fall asleep infront of the telly in peace.
It is not about bringing back the glory times, it is about making F1 races more interesting.
But F1 is already interesting to proper fans. They remain hooked lap after lap every single year. There is countless action every single session.
Sadly, the idle TV watcher wants to see accidents or overtaking before even looking twice, and that isn't what makes F1 exciting (although that's not to say we don't like it when it happens!
).
That's why purists (of which I count myself) do not want artificial stuff like push to pass or variable downforce twice a lap to get in the way of what is a successful formulae. But the money-grabbers in charge realise they can get more money out of a dumbed down but popular sport than a complex niche sport. Then we'll have to find something else to watch vaguely as pure.
Sadly, the idle TV watcher wants to see accidents or overtaking before even looking twice, and that isn't what makes F1 exciting (although that's not to say we don't like it when it happens!
).That's why purists (of which I count myself) do not want artificial stuff like push to pass or variable downforce twice a lap to get in the way of what is a successful formulae. But the money-grabbers in charge realise they can get more money out of a dumbed down but popular sport than a complex niche sport. Then we'll have to find something else to watch vaguely as pure.
F1 has never had glory times tbh. It's only because of poor memories and rose tinted spectacles we tend to think things were always better in the past. You'll understand that Hyper, you're getting on a bit
And F1 has always been interesting imo, and i expect (and hope) it will continue to be so. Bernie's 77yrs old, he can't go on forever. (unless he really has sold his soul to the Devil)
NASCAR
In one sense the oval racing is the purest form of motorsport. It was the way motorsport was done at first, it was all about maximum speed and minimum of corners. 
I actually said "more interesting", meaning that the races could be better. And I should have put that glory as "glory". Anyone who has downloaded and watched few races from 80s or 90s will quickly come to realize how worse things were at times. I don't think the f1 races are that bad today but there are ways to make them better. Not by push to pass or some anti environmental gadgets (kerts or whateveritwas). There are ways to make things interesting and more exciting. Surely F1 is interesting but at the same time it is over designed and under developed. One big part of the shittynes of F1 is all that money talks, bs walks stuff. F1 is so clearly about making money that it hurts.
I actually said "more interesting", meaning that the races could be better. And I should have put that glory as "glory". Anyone who has downloaded and watched few races from 80s or 90s will quickly come to realize how worse things were at times. I don't think the f1 races are that bad today but there are ways to make them better. Not by push to pass or some anti environmental gadgets (kerts or whateveritwas). There are ways to make things interesting and more exciting. Surely F1 is interesting but at the same time it is over designed and under developed. One big part of the shittynes of F1 is all that money talks, bs walks stuff. F1 is so clearly about making money that it hurts.
To be honest, i completely miss-read Tristans post. But as it turns out, i made quite a tongue in cheek reply
.As a point of interest. Why do we need to make F1 more interesting ?. As you say, money is probably it's biggest problem. If F1 is becoming dull, then surely (and in theory) that means it's less enticing for large sponsors and TV companies. So if they begin to back off, then there'll be less money overall in the sport, and it can return to similar budgets of the 80's (comparatively speaking) and get back to more of a grass roots level, where creative inventiveness was the corner stone of the sport and not the deepest pockets.
I have to say, i really enjoy watching F3 (and have done for years) when it's on TV. It's almost how F1 was back in the 80's, except with even tighter controls on the technical side, i.e it has a similar atmosphere to ye-olde F1, almost a cute amateur-ish naivety to it (so to speak) . So it's very much down to drivers/setups rather than having the best and most expensive super-duper trick machinery. + you get to see the stars of the future.
I know it sounds daft, but I would really love to see the current season's F1 drivers race each other in karts - just once!
I mean, if they were ever to organise something like that, maybe as a charity event, I'd certainly pay-per-view to see it.
Plenty of thrills and spills, and no more "yeah well, he always wins 'cos he's got the best car", talk.
I mean, if they were ever to organise something like that, maybe as a charity event, I'd certainly pay-per-view to see it.
Plenty of thrills and spills, and no more "yeah well, he always wins 'cos he's got the best car", talk.
yeah i agree i really dont like the idea of push to pass or MAD(movable aero device) because it seems to lose the true meaning of racing. with those devices its more like formula one is about who presses the button more intelligently will win. not whos the best driver. its just not racing anymore.
on the technical side its great to see how much formula one has developed in the last decade or so. but to the fans its just no racing anymore.
maybe this is because Formula one is no longer a sport. its more like a business thanks to bernie.
i wouldnt mind the latter much if it was up to the driver to change the angle whenever he sees fit (as opposed to eg traction control)
as it stands now what f1 really needs is a few more drivers with character rather than smilie phonies like we have now
Don't know if any of you younger chaps remember the "Turbo Era". But, the cars were fitted with a dial so the turbo boost could be turned up or down, effectively making it a push to pass button/knob/thing..
Although in the early days it was more of a "push to get to the scene of the accident quicker" button, or a handy "engine self destruct" switch. However, just before the turbos were banned, rumours around the paddock suggested the BMW engines in the back of the Brabhams were producing about 1500bhp on full boost ! from 1.5 litres !. And they were pretty reliable (if used wisely)
So, the point is, it won't entirely set a precedent if modern F1 cars have them. Although i'd personally hate F1 to go down that route, i wouldn't rule out Bernie ditching the idea.
The moveable wing thing is a shockingly bad idea, and potentially very very dangerous. Imagine you have a slight knock at T1 breaking whatever device is used to move the wings. You're blasting down the straight with minimum wing settings, you arrive at the corner, flick the switch, think your wings are now at max downforce, try to turn in, and suddenly find yourself headbutting the wall at 300kph. We've now got 3 proper street circuits, and 2 semi-street circuits...no run off areas...no escape roads to speak of. I wouldn't be surprised if we have a return to the "good old gory days" of F1.
Although in the early days it was more of a "push to get to the scene of the accident quicker" button, or a handy "engine self destruct" switch. However, just before the turbos were banned, rumours around the paddock suggested the BMW engines in the back of the Brabhams were producing about 1500bhp on full boost ! from 1.5 litres !. And they were pretty reliable (if used wisely)
So, the point is, it won't entirely set a precedent if modern F1 cars have them. Although i'd personally hate F1 to go down that route, i wouldn't rule out Bernie ditching the idea.
The moveable wing thing is a shockingly bad idea, and potentially very very dangerous. Imagine you have a slight knock at T1 breaking whatever device is used to move the wings. You're blasting down the straight with minimum wing settings, you arrive at the corner, flick the switch, think your wings are now at max downforce, try to turn in, and suddenly find yourself headbutting the wall at 300kph. We've now got 3 proper street circuits, and 2 semi-street circuits...no run off areas...no escape roads to speak of. I wouldn't be surprised if we have a return to the "good old gory days" of F1.
Here's my list for this race (headers borrowed from duke toaster).
Great Success:
Raikkonen for showing Massa who the boss is
Kubica for beating both McLarens fair and square
Webber for finishing ahead of the works Renaults
Epic Fail:
Heidfeld for finishing 4 places behind Kubica
Bourdais for not even managing a lap
? no one obvious (Massa spin looked odd)
And about the question of overtaking. IMO it certainly isn't true that F1 races have always had so little overtaking even though it's true that the complaints have always been the same. Slipstreams have gotten less effective and defensive driving maneuvers have become more aggressive.
But the problem of how to improve the situation has been solved for at least three years now: no TC and proper Venturi floors. People have suspected this for years, GP2 tried it and it worked. I think the TC ban has already made F1 much more interesting but I'm less convinced by the future aero changes.
Great Success:
Raikkonen for showing Massa who the boss is
Kubica for beating both McLarens fair and square
Webber for finishing ahead of the works Renaults
Epic Fail:
Heidfeld for finishing 4 places behind Kubica
Bourdais for not even managing a lap
? no one obvious (Massa spin looked odd)
And about the question of overtaking. IMO it certainly isn't true that F1 races have always had so little overtaking even though it's true that the complaints have always been the same. Slipstreams have gotten less effective and defensive driving maneuvers have become more aggressive.
But the problem of how to improve the situation has been solved for at least three years now: no TC and proper Venturi floors. People have suspected this for years, GP2 tried it and it worked. I think the TC ban has already made F1 much more interesting but I'm less convinced by the future aero changes.
the problem with the ban of TC is that the drivers are struggling to put the power down at the corners when following another car, which makes overtaking much more difficult.
it was quite obvious if you look at Malaysian GP when Hamilton was stuck behind Webber for quite a long time and Kimi stuck behind Rubens in Aus GP.
it was quite obvious if you look at Malaysian GP when Hamilton was stuck behind Webber for quite a long time and Kimi stuck behind Rubens in Aus GP.
Personally, I think it is just a matter of being behind someone, period. It's always evident that when you have a car in front of you, your laptimes are hurt... you cannot focus on being faster on your own line/method, etc.
Being unable to pass is just common. I personally like it because the drivers get a little anxious to pass the longer they are held up, and some daring moves are made.
Being unable to pass is just common. I personally like it because the drivers get a little anxious to pass the longer they are held up, and some daring moves are made.
To be fair Heidfeld got very unlucky at turn one when Trulli forced him very very wide making him loose several places. Kubica on the other hand had a good start and had the track all to himself for the entire race. Don´t get me wrong, Kubica was better in this race but I think calling one´s performance brilliant and other´s a failure is a bit harsh.
F1 also had these kind of 'overtake' buttons for years prior to the FIA imposed revlimit of last year, the only difference to A1GP being that its use wasn't restricted by the governing body of the sport.
I am kind of hoping Glock will do good this year. So far, it is pretty bad looking 
A shame, he has potential.
A shame, he has potential.Ah, that was it. I tried to think of the reason Heidfeld was so far back but couldn't remember. His performance of course wasn't completely bad but I was already struggling to come up with three drivers that messed up. And I'm still not sure why wasn't able to recover better from the first corner.
What about Rosberg smashing into Glock and making a completety epicly failed weekend(for Both drivers).
F1 has never had a `push to pass` button... They use/d different fuel mixtures.
How does that work then? The cars become understeer biased due to aerodynamic issues, giving the rear tyres more spare capacity to handle torque, so they can actually use more throttle, earlier in the corner, to help balance the understeer and get a better exit.
The struggle was because it's all still a bit new, and they aren't great at holding their nerve yet when pushing. It's got nothing to do with traction whilst following another car.
I don't know how people come up with such rubbish. Next they'll say following another car makes it hard to drink because Hamilton didn't drink anything... Frubbish (as in Fugly).
Really ? wow, i either didn't know that, or i simply don't remember knowing. (probably a mix of both :shy
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The problem with overtaking starts in the corner that leads onto the straight that has a heavy braking zone at the end of it. i.e the aero doesn't allow the car behind to get close enough in the corner (because of understeer), which means it's always playing catch-up down the straight (and as far as i'm aware, there's less of a slipstream affect coming from the lead car these days) Which results in the 'coming from nowhere' banzai moves into the braking zone.
certainly the overall grip will be lower than in clean air right?
Yes. But compensated with an earlier apex and earlier throttle. Elapsed time will be greater (reduced overall grip), but compared to the car they're following they'll be better off.
It's completely obvious to anyone with sense that removing driving aids HELPS overtaking.
It's completely obvious to anyone with sense that removing driving aids HELPS overtaking.
[F1 2008]Malaysian Grand Prix Discussion *spoilers*
(239 posts, started )
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