It is, i agree.

I see me and Jibber is pretty much at the same page. There are many definitions to "simulator", but I like this one:

"To create the effect or appearance of."

Surely, with GT5p's graphics and detailed cockpit-view, sound, real life thourougly reacreated cars and tracks along with demanding physics, it qualifies as a simulator.

So does LFS with its superb physics but lesser graphics and sound effects.
I guess Gran Turismo is more comparable to the driving experience as a whole, while LFS is more comparable to the technique and skill it takes to race a car around a track with lots of other cars without crashing.

Quote from danowat :

At what point does a game stop becoming a game, and become a sim?, surely its a tough point to quantify?

when their marketing department decides to register that as trademark and feels they would get more money advertising it as a sim

Quote from spanks :

when their marketing department decides to register that as trademark and feels they would get more money advertising it as a sim

:slap:

Why does the people behin the game keep coming up? I sense a general hate against anything commercial in here. I'm sure that the moment LFS was to be found in the shelves of a game shop, you would all quit because they "sold out"?.

Quote from danowat :

At what point does a game stop becoming a game, and become a sim?, surely its a tough point to quantify?

That's a tough point to answer, but at least for me, simulation just FEELS right and to this date only LFS feels right to me..
If GT5p physics are similiar to GT4 physics i can't see playing it more than couple of days.. Yes, you can call the physics predictable, yes, FWD cars understeer and RWD oversteer, yes the graphics are amazing, etc etc but it just don't feel right, it's simplified.. I can't seem to find those seconds, tenths, miliseconds as i do in LFS. I played GT4 for a month or two, i just couldn't figure out where am i doing wrong nor could i feel the tires as good as in LFS.. and that tyre skid sound? i see it's the same as it was in GT4..
I just couldn't satisfy myself with those "good enough" or "better than most" physics.. everything just feels dumbed down after LFS...
I would like to try it though in that full simulation mode just to know for sure, but i don't hold my breath..

"Originally Posted by From GT5 website..
Sony Computer Entertainment Europe and Polyphony Digital are pleased to announce Gran Turismo 5 Prologue™. With stunningly realistic HD graphics, online races and the most accurate physics yet seen in a racing simulator, there’s never been anything quite like it."

Bear in mind that this game will mostly be played by very young people - mostly children.
They look at the promotional jargon and believe it because they want to think they can really drive and handle a car at speed.

What do you think that that Phonypoly is gonna say? - yup the graphics are good but we dumbed it down to so that you can get around a lap or two without crashing? - how many copies would they sell if they were honest?.

Children like to feel that they are doing it for real - but give them accurate physics and they will soon complain about how slow the game feels and how hard it is to stay on the track.

They have spouted this sort of promotional bullshit since the first GT came out on Playstation - every single time, but you know there's always plenty that will believe it.

Consoles is for kids and casual gamers - thats their market, you will only find a sim on PC - at least for the time being.

Quote from Polyracer :

Consoles is for kids and casual gamers - thats their market, you will only find a sim on PC - at least for the time being.

Sorry, but thats condisending horseshite, I think Forza 2 qualifies as a sim, sure it may not have the physics clout behind it LFS does, but it uses proper tyre physics modelling, and it "feels" right.

edit : plus, it's a lot more fun, and not full of sim nazi's

Quote from Polyracer :

but give them accurate physics and they will soon complain about how slow the game feels and how hard it is to stay on the track....

...Consoles is for kids and casual gamers - thats their market, you will only find a sim on PC - at least for the time being.

But in simulation mode with a G25... the grip is realistic (no high speed cornering anymore) and it actually is quite easy to make a mistake that will send you off the track.

And i think your statement about consoles is a bit outdated nowadays. What about Forza Motorsport 2 for example? No wait, i forgot... that's another arcade game for 5 year olds.

EDIT: "Sim Nazi's", i like that! Haha!

Quote from [Viking] :

...
I guess Gran Turismo is more comparable to the driving experience as a whole, while LFS is more comparable to the technique and skill it takes to race a car around a track with lots of other cars without crashing.

You are right. To me simulation means the latter.

I used LFS as an example because earlier people were comparing it to GT5. rFactor is a pretty complex sim just there are some errors in the core and badly made mods which makes the results not so good. Driving in GT5 is fun but it doesn't make me try to beat my best lap by a fraction of a second, if you know what I mean.

Quote from Polyracer :

...
Children like to feel that they are doing it for real - but give them accurate physics and they will soon complain about how slow the game feels and how hard it is to stay on the track. ...

That is true. But the children interested in this game (age 10-12 and up?) can play on standard settings and think the noise and the speed is awesome. Adults can play on professional settings and enjoy the skill it takes to manhandle a powerful RWD car, or any car for that matter. I've let my brother (36) try it. My dad. A lot of friends etc etc. They sit down in the cockpit, shift it to first and can't seem to go anywhere. They have huge trouble. Friends that claim to be "racing game lovers" get pissed off because they spin out all the time or they understeer into other cars losing lots of time. I sit myself down and halves their lap times without effort. The same friends that introduced me to LFS because they found an article about the S2 demo on a webpage and thought it was kinda cool with the realism. They got sick and tired of the difficulty being >regular, but I stuck with it loving the challenge.

I kind of give up. I will enjoy both games anyways and people can be as prejudging as they want. Standard/Pro settings really make an immense difference.

edit:

Quote from HUN :

Driving in GT5 is fun but it doesn't make me try to beat my best lap by a fraction of a second, if you know what I mean.

Agreed. It is not as motivating to improve over and over again. It's more about the joy of driving and mastering the driving itself. And of course overtaking others and winning laps. But yes, I agree that LFS is more motivational to improve yourself.

Couldn't agree more with you [Viking].

Well to be honest, maybe I am speaking unfairly here - but I am speaking from experience, in as much as I have always been disappointed with racing games on Consoles.

thats exactly why I switched to PC.

Quote from jibber :

What controller are you using?

I'm using a DFP. Don't get me wrong it's a good game, but in my opinion nothing more. I Was quite pleased with the ff ,but the physics just aren't that good I feel. It's closer than ever to a 'simulation' that it has been before, but it isn't quite there yet. I'm afraid I would much rather play lfs.

And how many degrees? I remember trying GT4 with the DFP... it was only halfway acceptable with 900 degrees. On 200 degrees it was rubbish...

Nonetheless, of course it will never be as good as LFS. Totally agree with that.

I wasnt aware you could change it? Just plugging it in now though its round about 400 degrees I would think. I've tried it with a mates G25 as well but it still doesn't feel that realistic.

GT fans, don't get me wrong, it's a good game!!! The best driving game on a console for a long while. I guess i just have high expectations after being with LFS for a few years.

The DFP can be changed with a button combination on the wheel... something like two of the R-Buttons and one of the paddle shifters together.... don't remember exactly. It's either on 200 degrees or on 900 (on a console).

I use the G25, and i have to agree, it doesn't feel 100% realistic. But good enough for my taste. Still, compared to LFS (which is a benchmark for me aswell) it feels like quite "simple physics" of course.

Quote from jibber :

The DFP can be changed with a button combination on the wheel... something like two of the R-Buttons and one of the paddle shifters together

I will look that up mate, would be interesting to see what it's like with 900 degrees rotation.

Quote from jaws99 :

I will look that up mate, would be interesting to see what it's like with 900 degrees rotation.

You can switch between 200 and 900 degree mode by pressing SELECT+R3+Right Paddle and you adjust FF Strenght by pressing SELECT+R3+Left Paddle.

Quote from _--NZ--_[HUN] :

You can switch between 200 and 900 degree mode by pressing SELECT+R3+Right Paddle and you adjust FF Strenght by pressing SELECT+R3+Left Paddle.

Cheers mate

but how does it compare to other pc sims besides lfs ?

Let him enjoy the GT5 'demo' if he wants to. There is more to life than LFS. My son (Wills, obviously) 6, really likes GT4.

Quote from michaelnyden :

I think if everyone wants to effectively see GT5 graphics and car/track selection with LFS physics engine we need to start a donation fund (I will certainly chip in) and get things going for the S3 (with dx10, even better physics, ai, sound, real cars & tracks everyone keeps whining about) any other hardcore guys down? this is of course would be with the devs approval since the only way they can even hope to get a budget like polyphony is have a donation fund since the license fees are certainly not enough to develop and license cars & tracks...imagine what the devs could with a quarter of polyphony's budget? oh yeah

donation?

you want guys to make a good deal! Hope not 'cos I will have to buy PS3

@ UK'ers - If you wonder, to get GT5:P and and a 40GB PS3 is £275 from here using voucher "experience08" for 5% off

I just played Gran Turismo 5: Prolouge yesterday with my mate on his PS3. I hired it from the shop because i wanted to see what its really like. I cant say much because i was using a controller rather then a wheel, but the game is really stupid.
I was expecting all of you to get ripped and have GT5P prove you wrong but woah it was really crap.
The only thing that is better then LFS to do with physics is the feeling of the weight of the car. LFS the cars feel like 10kg, maybe only i can feel it and im sounding stupid saying it, but thats how i feel LFS is. GT5 it was abit harder to push the cars into the turns because of the weight.

The graphics arent too special. They are amazing and all but they are too "smooth" The grass is too green, the sky is too blue, just not what i expected. But ive noticed with PS3 games, some parts of the game look 100% like real life (F1 championship youl notice the Mclaren looks amazing under grandstand shaddows, or the Ferrari shines the best and has the best lighting effect on sunset, GT5 the tunnels are amazing aswell as the car shadows etc) But everything else id say LFS looks better in its own way.

Conclusion, im not saying im some pro sim racer or rl racer, but i know what a car is and what it's not. I understand well how cars can vary and i know how cars react depending on the engine mounting, shape, drive etc. aswell as knowing how to drive for each car. I know it seems like im boasting BIGTIME but its just to prove my point that..

LFS has cars, GT5 doesnt. I guess you can see the irony in that

GT5p = 6/10
LFS s2 Alpha = 8/10

I hope this post helps.

Quote from aoun :

The only thing that is better then LFS to do with physics is the feeling of the weight of the car.

I think you'll find that's GT overdoing weight-transfer to the point of looking downright silly. Every video I've seen of GT has cars pitching and diving like they have no dampers at all.