Quote from chunkyracer :

As long as a lot of that market is a "bunch of frustated shumacher's wanna be", I don´t really think that LFS will be an alternative, because of the lack in "real" content. For a lot of people, the most important thing they want of a sim, is to pretend they´re driving the "x" car, around the"y" track and getting their ego's up, thinking they can drive faster than "z" driver. For them, even if they try it, LFS will not be good enough.

Who says that there isn't anything in the books now to be able to get real content into LFS? You have to get one foot in front of the other before you can run, personally I wouldn't, and don't want 'real' content until I am happy with the underlying groundwork, the physics. The 'real' part of it is only eyecandy...

I agree Sam, that for me also goes back to a conflict of interest in managing the servers and removing the unqualified drivers. They are starting this from the ground up to generate revenue, not to help a community or build on a community, if they did they would have seen that charging an arm and a leg just won't cut it. Their primary concern is the figures in the bank at the end of the day and banning people for anything other than blatent wrecking would ruin their figures. One could argue that upholding the rules diligently will spread the message they mean business which to me is what they are relying on to be able to generate the numbers, but they are going to have to have one hell of a marketing campaign in the terms of prizes for events and the like to be able to get any decent numbers in IMO.

Again this is all speculation, I would rather stick to LFS than waste $300 the first year to play something, when I could generate the same level of professionalism here in LFS, with one cracken' community that is, what, 7 years old now? LFS dev team has never been about to fleece us or to take anything more than what is required, they have coddled us until we stood up on our feet by ourselves and watched us walk =) He has let most everything grow organically, letting everything happen in due course. Not shove a set of rules at people from the getgo, say here you MUST follow this or you can't play with ANY of the content online. And ohh by the way instead of paying $50 in a one time fee, you must now pay 6x that to be able to play for one year.

I also agree that LFS has been left on it's own and the sim racing community as a whole doesn't really know of what LFS is capable of, other than it has little to no real content and is still Alpha, so they don't see a finished product they can put their money on. I wonder if we could see how many times RF/GTR/ect. ect. crash on people... bah thats getting off topic even more. 33 pages and rolling =) I see LFS as my 'professional' sim, some of the stuff just isn't created yet

There seems the danger that it could actually fall into a very awkward niche that doesn't actually appeal to anybody. The sim market is already small, segregated and loyal, and unless this new sim somehow manages to tick all of your boxes, I'd wager that the heavy pricing, absent demo and restrictive nature of online play would present enough of a disincentive for the average simmer.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

There seems the danger that it could actually fall into a very awkward niche that doesn't actually appeal to anybody. The sim market is already small, segregated and loyal, and unless this new sim somehow manages to tick all of your boxes, I'd wager that the heavy pricing, absent demo and restrictive nature of online play would present enough of a disincentive for the average simmer.

I would agree with that, absolutely. On top of that, as well - as someone has pointed out recently - the economic climate is another box to tick. You can't fill your car with a tankful of iRacing. At $4/gallon, the trip to work and back has suddenly become a major expense. That needs to be funded before iR can be.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

There seems the danger that it could actually fall into a very awkward niche that doesn't actually appeal to anybody. The sim market is already small, segregated and loyal, and unless this new sim somehow manages to tick all of your boxes, I'd wager that the heavy pricing, absent demo and restrictive nature of online play would present enough of a disincentive for the average simmer.

I also can't see it appealing to real racers for the same reasons, especially the last one... I'd wage a bet that a race driver won't go through all the hassle of getting the right licence to drive the car he drives, and then there is no place to practice for the next race as iRacing is on another venue...

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

...
I agree Sam, that for me also goes back to a conflict of interest in managing the servers and removing the unqualified drivers...

Of course this is speculation as well, but presumably wreckers and unqualified drivers will have very low iratings and be sent to "wrecker-only" servers rather than being booted from the sim. If you want to pay $13/month to wreck people, you can do it with like-minded individuals.

Quote from SamH :

At $4/gallon, the trip to work and back has suddenly become a major expense. That needs to be funded before iR can be.

Geeez that is cheap Petrol - send it down here Sam

Quote from Dru :

Geeez that is cheap Petrol - send it down here Sam

hehe yeah, it'd be cheap to us, but the yanks aren't used to prices like this. We could have it that cheap if we weren't taxed to hell and back.

Quote from SamH :

hehe yeah, it'd be cheap to us, but the yanks aren't used to prices like this. We could have it that cheap if we weren't taxed to hell and back.

Hehe yeah, well it's not too far off now actually. About 20cents per liter cheaper in the states, which is a bit, but alot less than people make out and like you said that extra little bit is from the government taking like 50 cents of every liter or something.

Quote from chunkyracer :

...because of the lack in "real" content... the most important thing they want of a sim, is to... drive "x" car, around "y" track... even if they try it, LFS will not be good enough.

I don't think it is about ego as much as it is just being able to identify w/ EACH OTHER and associate our accomplishments with something real and something that has more "universal" appeal. Nearly everyone in the USA knows something about Laguna Seca!

I have tried to bring at least 10 guys from other racing games over to LFS (I am a damn good salesman too) but after they look at the cars and tracks - they aren't interested - because they can't IDENTIFY with it... it is just too "unrealistic".

Isn't that a kick in the butt? The most real sim I've ever played, but because of the "pretend brand cars" and generic tracks - they don't even care... only 2 out of 10 even tried the demo (and one guy got another guy to try it - so 3 guys) and none of them bought a license.

Quote from ajp71 :

...The real tracks and cars really are there because most people dream of driving round Laguna Seca in a GP2 car rather than driving round Aston in an FO8

I completely agree & I wish to do the same...
- I just want to do it with LFS quality "realism" driving "real" cars!
- - I also want to do it for under $40 like most other racing games!

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

Hehe yeah, well it's not too far off now actually. About 20cents per liter cheaper in the states, which is a bit, but alot less than people make out and like you said that extra little bit is from the government taking like 50 cents of every liter or something.

How much are you paying now? The last time I filled the car up the cheapest garage I could find locally was £1.17/litre, which equates to $10/gallon. When I was in the States in the Summer you were paying about $2.80-3.30/gallon and our fuel price was already over £1/litre by then. Seeing as the tax on our fuel hasn't risen this time (for a change) that would mean if the rise in oil prices are the same (you'd expect them to be constant in the Western world) then your price must have magically tripled in 6 months to be anywhere near ours?

EDIT - according to this site US averages are still under $4/gallon, it may be a bit more than you're used to but you're still only paying a bit more than a third of what we have to

Quote :

I completely agree & I wish to do the same...
- I just want to do it with LFS quality "realism" driving "real" cars!
- - I also want to do it for under $40 like most other racing games!

I sort of think that by the time the physics and mechanical modeling has reached the point where Scawen's really happy with it, we'll begin to see more real world cars. There haven't been any additional fantasy cars introduced since the BF1- which says to me that the earlier cars were probably more about experimentation with the physics engine than preoccupation with getting content into LFS. Not sure on the devs actual take on this but that's my hunch.

edit: I don't have a problem with fantasy cars/tracks either. But I do reckon that as expectations increase in regards to the potentials of future sims, the defining challenge (both scientifically and artistically) will most certainly centre around greater and greater replication of real world locations and machines.

Well currently I just paid 1.25 a liter to fuel it up today 41 pounds later I had a full tank... that was only to fill 3/4 of a 45 liter tank =)

When I was in the states last in the beginning of May it was 3.60 which wasn't bad for me because I made pounds so I could do the exchange rate so it was something like 50p a liter.

For someone in the states who doesn't make pounds it costs just under 1.00 per liter compared to our 1.10. The exchange rate cannot be used because there is no exchange of currency happening. They are paying dollars while we are paying pounds while they are making dollars and we are making pounds.

This is separate from the fact that the average worker in the US makes 1/3- 1/2 again more than the British worker, and pays less in taxes, so % wise people lose less of their income in fuel if they had cars with the same gas millage, but they don't so they pay more per mile than someone from the UK =) But it's their own fault... My Brother has a Dodge Ram with the 5.7liter Hemi. He puts in about $200 in fuel a week, insane. I told him he needs to get a car, but he won't listen.

They earn more than we do before you take the exchange rate into account ($46000 vs. $35300 GDP per capita in 2007). By the time you take that into account we're paying more than 3 times as much. I know in the US though there is more of a diversity of income and I also realise that a lot of poor people reckon they should be able to afford to drive around in cars with huge old V8s but in the end of the day there are plenty of people over here who struggle to afford to run cars which drink less than a third of what people drive over there.

Quote from ajp71 :

They earn more than we do before you take the exchange rate into account ($46000 vs. $35300 GDP per capita in 2007). By the time you take that into account we're paying more than 3 times as much. I know in the US though there is more of a diversity of income and I also realise that a lot of poor people reckon they should be able to afford to drive around in cars with huge old V8s but in the end of the day there are plenty of people over here who struggle to afford to run cars which drink less than a third of what people drive over there.

I agree, there are other factors making the price of fuel expensive here, but fuel itself isn't that much more expensive than the USA. This country has shit wages, high tax, and no housing.... why am I living here again? Have 30 acres waiting for me in the states...bloody women... When buying anything other than food 1/2 of our money is gone in tax by the time you add in NI, NHS, VAT... thats not including council tax...

Quote from Christopher Raemisch :

I agree, there are other factors making the price of fuel expensive here, but fuel itself isn't that much more expensive than the USA. This country has shit wages, high tax, and no housing.... why am I living here again? Have 30 acres waiting for me in the states...bloody women... When buying anything other than food 1/2 of our money is gone in tax by the time you add in NI, NHS, VAT... thats not including council tax...

Sorry I'm still lost with your argument, fuel is nearly three times the cost here whether you use the exchange rate or peoples' earnings, how can you possibly argue it's not that much more?

Quote from ajp71 :

Sorry I'm still lost with your argument, fuel is nearly three times the cost here whether you use the exchange rate or peoples' earnings, how can you possibly argue it's not that much more?

Hehe, it happens alot, I have this was of not explaining things very well it seems =)

I don't know how to explain it well really other than the cost per unit, barring anyones exchange rates ect. is just under 1.00 for one liter of fuel in the states to 1.10 here.

There are many other factors that make the % of annual income spent on fuel much greater in this country than the USA, but when looking at the monetary cost per unit they are roughly the same.

Factor in all these other things like total annual income, tax ect. the USA in general has much more expendable income to be able to 'afford' paying for extra fuel where people in the UK have considerably less expendable income and less flexibility in being able to pay for the rising fuel costs.

I think part of my miscommunication was when it would cost more to pay for fuel in the states, that is wrong. People pay more, but thats because they use that much more fuel than people in the UK.

An economist would know better, but thats how I look at it.

I don't know about UK but I prefer to pay higher taxes for the added security it brings. Free, (well almost) health care, for instance, is something I consider more valuable than 10k€ more wage in year, cars/petrol prices halved or twice as big apartment.

Sure, if given the choise, I'd pay no taxes if I was in perfect health why bother, I don't need it! But when the nausea sets in I'd not hesitate to pay some "thirds" in taxes for free health care, possibly getting my life back. Unfortunately that's not the way it goes but at least it is the better of the worsts for me.

Yay, tax talk, finally new proper chance for decent nukular text based flamewar!

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Quote from Electrik Kar :

I sort of think that by the time the physics and mechanical modeling has reached the point where Scawen's really happy with it, we'll begin to see more real world cars. ...

If you haven't noticed we have already got two real cars... (/)

I'd prefer to have a decent free health service, pay less taxes, and to pay for it all, I'd like for us to get our asses out of every other country's business in the middle east.

LOL =)

Well I came from the States where it's privatized. Virtually every company will have their own health scheme and you only pay a tiny fraction for doctor visits ect. My brother pays $16 in premiums and something like $20 per doctor visit, with optical, dental, which is a bit more on top of the $16 but nothing like my 180pounds a month I pay for here, which isn't very good IMO and the UK is going privatized.

True if you don't have a job you don't have healthcare, but it's not hard to find a job if you need healthcare, I believe McDonalds has healthcare too. If you don't have a job and are in need of medical attention you should have gotten a job and contributed to society.

Saying that if there is a legitmate reason why you cannot work, or other legitimate reasons there are government plans in place to help.

It may be different in Finland, from what I heard many UK'ers head there for dental treatment and other ailments because they can get better care there, but for the UK it's not working very well and I am unimpressed.

:edit: this is my only post on this, not going to respond, getting too close to politics and religion, and I don't like talking about those...

Quote :

If you haven't noticed we have already got two real cars... (/)

On my count, 4. My point was, there have been no new fantasy cars for ages.

Quote from Electrik Kar :

On my count, 4. My point was, there have been no new fantasy cars for ages.

Hopefully we won't get another 'fake' car again =)

What's wrong with fake cars? As long as they're good to drive. Give me a fake car that drives like a dream over a crap real car any day...

Quote from ajp71 :

If you happen to need to learn Laguna Seca or Summit Point (Lime Rock will be redundant within 6 months or release) then yes iRacing might be helpful to learn those tracks, still not going to beat a quick (free) track walk though. I doubt iRacing will shift a single copy to someone who genuinely thinks that learning tracks is the primary reason for their purchase. The real tracks and cars really are there because most people dream of driving round Laguna Seca in a GP2 car rather than driving round Aston in an FO8

Did you read the news item on the iRacing site today?

http://www.iracing.com/news.htm

Seems the SAMAX team contacted iRacing with the specific need to learn the tracks.

"The iRacing.com simulation and internet racing service is currently in beta testing, but SAMAX team owner Peter Baron, who had previously raced online with iRacing co-founder John Henry, inquired about the possibility of his drivers using the test version of the simulation in their preparation for the Mazda Raceway event."

Quote from Electrik Kar :

On my count, 4. My point was, there have been no new fantasy cars for ages.

I meant as individual addons, as part of patches.

As for new content, I couldn't care less if it was real of fictional, I just hope there is something in the pipeline, preferably a track :/

Quote from dontsimon :

Did you read the news item on the iRacing site today?

http://www.iracing.com/news.htm

Seems the SAMAX team contacted iRacing with the specific need to learn the tracks.

"The iRacing.com simulation and internet racing service is currently in beta testing, but SAMAX team owner Peter Baron, who had previously raced online with iRacing co-founder John Henry, inquired about the possibility of his drivers using the test version of the simulation in their preparation for the Mazda Raceway event."

Yes because normal customers get splashed all over the front page of a website before the software has been released and there's an admission that team owner/iRacing guy had met before hand. I sincerely doubt there will be a queue of normal real world paying customers who pay the full price with no publicity or special service just to learn the one or two tracks that may be relevant to them.