Is the script ,(Macro or whatever) that makes you change gears fast, considered a cheat?
Because im very tempted to use it, but i dont like/want to cheat to be fast...
Some WR's were done with this, so that's why im asking it

Like Pecholobo?

Quote from niall09 :

Like Pecholobo?

Yeah..

yes like him ... didnt want to name though

if it concurs with your moral ideas, use it.
if you are a fair sportsman, don't do so.

well said neobio

Quote from niall09 :

Like Pecholobo?

I can think of a few others as well. Also from Spain go figure...

Well, it's maybe not a cheat in its true sense, but more like using it to gain an unfair advantage. Really makes the whole hotlapping thing pointless when someone comes along using it. If they are fast to begin with, it can make all the difference between 1st and 2nd place. Remember, I'm talking about hotlapping here, where every hundredths of a second counts. In racing I don't think it makes such a big difference, since other factors plays a role too.

That said, as long as someone beats my wrs fair and square, I won't use such a method trying to get it back. However, if they do use such a script, then I might do it too in order to reclaim it.

Anyway, if someone is blatantly using it all the time to gain advantage over others, they really don't deserve to be respected as a driver at all.

Quote from arco :

However, if they do use such a script, then I might do it too in order to reclaim it.

Which would make you equal - you would be on the same level with these guys.

I guess chano has now enough clues to make the right decision.

Quote :

If you have to ask if you are cheating, you most probably are.

Words of wisdom ^

I experimented with certain "techniques" , its effective and i know using it would instantly improve some of my uploaded laps.
But I dont feel compelled to use it or feel i need to use it, Although having a WR taken by someone proven to be exploiting LFS's clutch system can be frustraiting.

Biohazard pretty much sums it up though with his posts.

I've tried it to see the difference and while it won't make you an alien it does help in a racing environment, the most common situation where you get an advantage is when you get out of a corner head to head, with the script you will end with better top speed and better chances of getting the position you are fighting for and that is totally unfair.

sry biohazard but I'm fair a sportsman

That is why you have gentlemen ... is pathetic to learn that an unknown person using clutch can download 4 seconds one time ... because they are 4 seconds to win? you what you shall know better if you are so convinced that time is gained.

Besides scientifically proven that you can earn time? I would like to know exactly.

Sorry my English.

i've done a little testing on the drag strip

using a 10 ctrl rate button clutch instead to simulate the gear macro

the advantage of it is obvious, and here is the best result i got:

Auto clutch 13.21
Manual clutch 13.01

0.2 sec!!!!

attached the set as well, give it a try

Its not that time is gained as such , its the way its gained.
I dont mind if i get beat racing with someone using a mouse or keyboard,
Infact i have respect, i did use the mouse for 9 months or so and trust me i envious of every wheel driver that beat me during that period.
Back to the main issue though, Is fair use of a button clutch or somthing configured via the profiler/script/macro accetpable?
It's by no means a massive difference its tenths of a second depending on the combo and that makes all the difference at the top level
In the hotlap enviroment. Racing i can see where it can have a difference also.
Ability is also a key factor lets not underestimate this with or without BC to get the WR times it does take practise and time and skill.
Which is why it is defined by some as a cheat, as using it does not require much skill.
Its always been an on/off issue this the longer LFS retains the hotlap physics intergrity the more obvious at the limit of max achievable
Speed at any given location/car combination. Thats when those tenths or hundreths make all the difference.
I really dont want to use this next point as a scenario as everytime the devs names are mentioned in a thread recently the topic
breaks of into subdivisional arguments about what if how why when the devs should do about LFS state. ( I even cringe at having to feel i have to say that)
But ...
The devil in me says , why not just use the BC to really see if i can match my peers. But lets picture, a future example, lets say.......
After this threads outcome people decide that using the BC method is fair game, the majority of competing hotlappers all use it now and its proliferated onto the race scene just as extensivley.
Then along come scavier and change the physics.
I guess all I'm trying to say is people will do what they can, when they can, and why they can.

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.

I use a clutch/shifter setup which puts me at a disadvantage against those that use 2 pedals and paddle-shift. But it doesn't matter to me though, If I'm the fastest Clutch user on the chart, that's as good as a WR for me!

Quote from Aitorrr :

That is why you have gentlemen ... is pathetic to learn that an unknown person using clutch can download 4 seconds one time ... because they are 4 seconds to win? you what you shall know better if you are so convinced that time is gained.

Besides scientifically proven that you can earn time? I would like to know exactly.

Sorry my English.

Don't really understand what you're trying to say here, but your actions on lfsworld says it all. You don't like my views and think your methods are perfectly ok, so to humiliate me you go ahead and do what you just did? Well, congratulations! You are superior, and others and myself have no chance. I guess it's time to quit the whole hotlap business. There's no point doing it. The system is flawed. If it ever gets fair for everyone I might be back. Until then it seems like anything goes, and I sure as hell won't be part of it.

And btw... why did you choose the UFR to do what you did? Why not the XFR? Could it be because button clutch doesn't work in the XFR? Geez!

Quote from Theafro :

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.

That right there is well said.

Professional race teams do use every trick in the book. They will find an advantage such as the issue discussed here and exploit it. Until it is made a ruling that you can NOT use it, they will use it and even after some will try to use it at the risk of getting caught.

The speed hack is such a rule in LFS. It is concidered a cheat, which is equal to being illegal in a professional racing series rulebook. But it's been proven that some people ignored the fact and took the risk of using it. They were caught, thus penalized for breaking the rules just as the professional teams are penalized for breaking the rules of their series.

This button clutch issue, or shifting issue, or whatever it is, I don't even know, is nothing worse than the high nose setup exploits of patches gone by. Everyone barked about the high nose setup exploit, yet those same were inclined to use it as well. It was there available to all. There was nothing in the rulebook stating that it was illegal to use the high nose setup so everyone used it. This issue discussed here is nothing different that that issue way back when.

Quote from Theafro :

Let's face it, Real-life race teams will spend thousands on chasing tiny gains like that so i guess it's fair game, If chasing tiny little margins turns you on, so be it.

I agree with what you're saying, though some people can't use button clutch.
Most G25 users can't, because they only have 2 buttons on the steering wheel, which most use for looking left/right. I can't use macro because for some reason after about 5 or so shifts the clutch starts to stick.
Some people can't do it so I believe it's an unfair advantage.

BTW bio your posts are so sexy

Arco, you'd be giving them what they want, Zanini (also spanish) was doing it too on a very fast corner which you need to change down to 5th very quickly in the FO8 as most people know you either use manual pedal clutch or have to lift off this guy did it in a split second, thats why i think the BF1 has the fairest playing field you gain very little/no advantage using this script.

@Chano - Your good as it is ive watched some of your hotlaps, this script wont get you to where you presumably want to be so why use it? Instead of using this just home in on other skills that eventually will pay off.

I think that the FZ5 should have autoclutch by default. Alot of expensive cars have auto-clutch manual transmissions in real life.

Quote from [DUcK] :

I agree with what you're saying, though some people can't use button clutch.
Most G25 users can't, because they only have 2 buttons on the steering wheel, which most use for looking left/right.

Just because you choose not to use a button clutch and use it to look instead, doesn't mean that you can't use a button for the button clutch. Not an unfair advantage in my eyes. You still have the option, you are only choosing not to use it.

In general on the topic: Unsportsmanlike, yes. Unfair, no. Until the devs come and state that it is a cheat and shouldn't be used, it isn't against any "rulebook". It can still be in the "rulebook" of a particular league you are running in even if the devs haven't stated it in general LFS usage.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Arco, you'd be giving them what they want,

Too late, already deleted my hotlaps.
I'm not the fastest, or most natural talented driver, not by a long shot. Hell, I'm just an old guy trying to keep up with alien teenagers. Some of the wr's I've set, I've worked really really hard on. Sometimes hours, sometimes days. I learn combos very slowly, and totally forget how to drive them after a couple of days if driving another one in between. My reaction is very bad, so I'm either too late or too early into corners. So yes, I'm a bit offended when someone do like 3 laps using unfair methods, and beat my wr. And on top of that, they use my setup (which they got from Phlos wr set collection) without permission. If they beat me fair and square, then I have no problem with it.

This is unbelievable, the breaking of WR's, i would like to see it with auto clutch if they can do the same, just to see the difference.
I saw the FeGreen-FXO WR (pecholobo) and wow, that clutch is fast, my first toughts of it (2 months ago) were that he was fast using the button.... but now this, a macro or whatever, that is being discussed if it's a cheat. For some isn't a cheat, but for others yes, that's what im asking, if the community/fast racers/wr's holders/respectable teams see it like a cheat, because i don't want to mark my name as a "cheater" or "unsportsmanlike" racer, (maybe because im at my best moment of being fast :razz.. So that's why im asking...
If the spanish people come here to say it isn't a cheat... ok for them... it's unfair for others yes, but the only one that i see that has beaten them fair and square is Ray (Bawbag)... and that's good because he's an alien.
And im not going to use it then

PS: I know now why pecholobo never completed the MHR, or got any other WR's apart from road cars

EDIT: arco you were like my benchmark for the rb4 laps

Quote from arco :

Too late, already deleted my hotlaps.
I'm not the fastest, or most natural talented driver, not by a long shot. Hell, I'm just an old guy trying to keep up with alien teenagers. Some of the wr's I've set, I've worked really really hard on. Sometimes hours, sometimes days. I learn combos very slowly, and totally forget how to drive them after a couple of days if driving another one in between. My reaction is very bad, so I'm either too late or too early into corners. So yes, I'm a bit offended when someone do like 3 laps using unfair methods, and beat my wr. And on top of that, they use my setup (which they got from Phlos wr set collection) without permission. If they beat me fair and square, then I have no problem with it.

Sounds very similar to my driving, forgettin tracks, turn in too early etc.
Should have kept your hotlaps though, now you have nothing to show for the time you spent hotlapping Ah well...

IMO it is an unfair advantage and the "its there you can use it, nothing stopping you" argument is pure bull anyone can get their hands on a speed hack, "well you can use it so its not an unfair advantage" If nothing is done LFS will turn into an arcade game, you should either have to use auto clutch or assign the clutch to an axis and get rid of all the sad, pathetic people that do this...