Quote from evilpimp :

Damn Paul your posts are too long

I wonder how you'd deal with those funny old fashion things called books?

@PaulC2K Great posts, and i agree with everything you've said.

Quote from PaulC2K :

Your telling me you cant comprehend someone making ANY comparison between 2 racing drivers on racing matters??

regardless of that - i wasnt making comparisons, your taking the comment out of context and simply reading it on the basis of one post and not the whole discussion before it, so whether you know it or not, your taking my comment out of the context it was put.

I was making the point that Senna became the Senna that people remember after a couple of years when he'd worked his way up the grid. People will remember all the great things he did, the daring moves, the unbelievable achievements, and the big mistakes. People remember everything he did in the prime of his career, they dont talk about the mistakes they make because they were young and inexperienced at that level because they werent being watched so closely, their mistakes didnt really make much of an impact because they werent that important because they werent significant people at the time. Everyone is watching the front runners, the people who have a certain expectation put on them, the rest are just expected to do their best really, if they stay out of trouble then they'll remain in the shadows of the top drivers.

Lewis hasnt got that shadow to hide in, he's having to learn from his mistakes in the spotlight and thats probably his own fault because he started so impressively. Had he started with your average rookie results, people wouldnt have slammed him for making mistakes, look at Kovi and Piquet during there time in the Renault for their rookie seasons, its not a rubbish car, its at the front of the mid-pack teams for certain, but they werent that impressive and their averageness meant people accepted their mistakes, meanwhile Lewis would take harsher critisism because he'd shown he had the pace and ability in previous races.

Had he been further back down the grid in a less significant team, people would dismiss his mistakes as n00bish, but if he shows signs of having something about him, isnt scared of racing the top drivers, and then dares to slip up... he gets harshly critisised for it.
His initial performances brought higher expectation, the way he started his career when people expected him to be very much the pupil learning from his mentor (Alonso) and possibly picking up the odd result, but after leading the standings for about 75% of the season he's kinda been expected to make the decisions and whatnot with the knowledge that past champions have had.

Is it unfair to compare 2-3 people from different era's to say who's better? absolutely... but tell me why its unfair to compare the conditions in which the 2-3 entered the sport. Senna and Schumacher entered the stage quietly and they came through over time, Lewis hasnt got that, he's now expected to perform flawlessly, to make all the right decisions, and end 3rd world debt




Then they'd have made their mistakes in a Williams instead.
Everyone makes mistake, as rookies and as multiple champions, but very few are thrown in at the deep end of the pool and expected to come so impressively. Maybe there would be quite a few if they were given the chance, Lewis is extremely fortunate, but you cant pretend that past world champions entered F1 and just started pulling wins out their arse, they've all made mistakes, and they always will, Lewis is no different.

Out of interest, do you think Senna or Schumacher could have got to the last race of their first season with a 7pt lead in an ever so slightly 2nd best car on the grid? Personally i cant see it, but I will say that i think Lewis probably had 'easier' opposition to get into that situation. Schumacher wouldnt have stood a chance, not with Senna, Prost & Mansell all having plenty of years behind them and i think all had been crowned world champion by then. Senna had Lauda and also Prost in there, i think Keke was in there too. Lewis was also lucky that he didnt have Schumacher, although still had Alonso (in the same car) and Kimi who'd already shown he was a title contender.
If Senna/Schumi came in when Lewis did... thats a different story
Senna in a Williams, maybe he'd win a race or 2, but i dont see him beating Lauda, Prost & co to the drivers title. Schumi wouldnt have stood a chance either vs Senna, Prost & Mansell.

When you consider what it requires to come into F1 as a rookie and do well, its no easy task. Your talking about coming in from a lower form of racing, most likely as the champion, and then taking on the very best drivers in the world, drivers who've won titles at that level, have bags of racing experience behind them as well as F1 experience and knowledge, to come in as an absolute rookie (not a Villeneuve/Andretti experienced rookie) and challenge for ANYTHING let alone win races on merit and come so close to winning the drivers title it was almost impossible for him to lose it... its unbelievable.



They probably made you lol as much as they made me lol when you try and pretend that they're one of the so-so teams on the grid at the end of the season, and now saying that the only reason they've done so well in the 2nd half (when the car is poor) is purely down to Kubica.
If thats the case, if we can just make up stuff, then im saying Kubica was poor in the first half of the season, and his results then were purely down to the car.

But hey, his car was so bad at the end of the season it was faster than Lewis and Seb when he insisted on unlapping himself. That was all him though of course?
Maybe the car wasnt as strong as it was at the start, but you cant claim his less impressive results in the first half of the season with a very competitive car, compared to his more impressive points haul in what your suggesting was a below-par car is entirely down to 1 drivers results... which were remarkably similar to his teammates too.
Your story just doesnt add up. Im not saying he's rubbish, i can see him challenging for a title when he gets a car capable of doing that asthe 08 BMW was never that, at any stage, he just managed to get some good results off the back of other peoples poor results (and credit to him for that) but not once was he challenging for a win on merit, and i find it very hard to believe someone who cant win races on merit will be a real threat on the WDC, whether they're Kubica, Schumacher or Sato. Its like thinking you can win a WDC while being unable to win a race off the front row



Vettel wasnt faster than Lewis, he qualified ahead of him due to stupid tyre choice then random scrutineering stopping him from making a proper attempt. In the race Lewis would have won from 15th, passing most of those places on the track, while Vettel had no challenger to worry about, and if the weather hadnt changed shortly after Hamilton went onto slicks and just laps before Vettel needed to pit anyway, things would have been very different.
Still, had it been dry i dont think Vettel would have had a chance, however it wasnt dry and thats what happened.
But i strongly disagree that he was faster than Lewis, he out played him, but he wasnt faster.

Hes fault really, the team asked what tires he wanted he wanted inters and failed.
Everytime Lewis set fast times Vettel matched it, and he was out the front coasting with a huge lead.

Nearly a whole page of essay bs and you base BMW's whole season performance on the last corner, sorry but that is just pathetic.

Its funny How people Claim Massa sucks because he can only win from the front row yet he has won the most races this season, what does that say.

Plus show me a race start this season that beats Massas Hungry attempt

Quote from Mustafur :

Hes fault really, the team asked what tires he wanted he wanted inters and failed.
Everytime Lewis set fast times Vettel matched it, and he was out the front coasting with a huge lead.

Nearly a whole page of essay bs and you base BMW's whole season performance on the last corner, sorry but that is just pathetic.

Its funny How people Claim Massa sucks because he can only win from the front row yet he has won the most races this season, what does that say.

Plus show me a race start this season that beats Massas Hungry attempt

it is also similarly blatant to ignore what happened at other races through...

AND IF NOT FOR THAT SPA PENALTY, Lewis would have won 6 and Massa 5, don't forget Massa got a race win handed to him on a shiny golden plate. (and similarly one taken away from the engine going boom in Hungary, but that's his team fault, not from outside influence)

Quote from count.bazley :

I don't agree. In the first 5 races Force India never managed to qualify one of their cars ahead of both Toro Rosso's, Toro Rosso always had the highest grid position of the 4 cars in all 5 races and Force India always had the lowest.

Grid positions in first 5 races:
VET BOU FIS SUT
======================
AUS 9 17 16 22
MAL 15 18 17 20
BAH 19 15 18 20
ESP 18 16 19 20
TUR 14 18 20 19

Looking at that I'd day say Toro Rosso had a clear advantage, especially when you consider both drivers were in their first full seasons.

Qualifing and race pace is different.

In Malaysia and Spain, Force india were deffinatly faster in Australia and Turkey, not enough information.

Quote from JCTK :

it is also similarly blatant to ignore what happened at other races through...

AND IF NOT FOR THAT SPA PENALTY, Lewis would have won 6 and Massa 5, don't forget Massa got a race win handed to him on a shiny golden plate. (and similarly one taken away from the engine going boom in Hungary, but that's his team fault, not from outside influence)

How many times to you want me to bag out Massa before you realise im not Anti-Hamilton?

Quote from Mustafur :

Never blow out bs percentage win ratio agiasnt a driver who has had half hes career in a mid field team.

Im not saying Massa is better, hes had more oportunities then lewis to rap this up, he lost 20 points easily from things that could of been easily avoided.and well over 20 that were just ridiculous mistakes(namely the first 2 GPs).

Quote me were i say wining the world championship means your the best driver, it means you had the best overall package(Car and Driver but not Driver only).

What i am saying is the Ferrari was better then the Mclaren hence making hamiltons job more difficult then Massas but in saying that i say hes not head and shoulders above the rest, infact i say there are some that are just as good if not better.
Imo the best Driver on the grid is Vettel.

And the Fuji crash is still nothing(not saying it wasn't a noob mistake though so dont take out of context) and will not even be in the same league as the montreal incident, which yes was this season so it can be included here.

Quote from JCTK :

or what if Massa didn't spun out in Malaysia all by himself...
or whatever happened at Australia (was it an engine failure that eventually put him out~? but he was down at the back anyway after being the only car that spun on the first corner thanks to the first ever start with no TC).
he might be unlucky in the end, but don't forget he also had an extremely crappy start to the season.

Hamilton is only in his 2nd year on F1 too, he still got plenty to learn and plenty to improve on, where as how many years it took Massa (and a few others but I can't be bothered naming them) to reach the level of performance he's at now~?

Too be fair only half his career was even given a chance.

And the funny thing is since then he has excelled(Not Ultra wow but he has been good to say the least, definetly not a Fisi or Barichello).

Massa is the kind of driver that is a very late peaker(very much like Mika), once he hits the sweetspot he will challenge the best there is.

How do you get a cork back in a champagne bottle??





Ask a ferrari team member!

Quote from andybarsblade :

how Do You Get A Cork Back In A Champagne Bottle??





Ask A Ferrari Team Member!

Ha-ha-ha!

Quote from andybarsblade :

How do you get a cork back in a champagne bottle??





Ask a ferrari team member!

Ferrari won the team championship title. You FAIL. :biggrinfl


The Massas might know though!

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

Hamilton's father admits F1 quit thoughts

Maybe he should go to NASCAR, where there's no trace of racism.

/sarcasm

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

Hamilton's father admits F1 quit thoughts

What a useless article and a useless statement by Hamilton Sr. It's like that in every high profile sport. "Fans" will always be like that and use the sport to act out patriotism or national chauvinism. It's not always pretty and some countries (or supporters of certain teams) are worse than others, but to start whining and talk about quitting when you earn millions, is laughable.

Quote from Linsen :

to start whining and talk about quitting when you earn millions, is laughable.

It's not only laughable, it shows a complete lack of understanding, because the reason people don't like Hamilton is because of statements like that. If you complain and talk about quitting when you earn millions, in a time when people are losing their homes and struggling to earn enough to feed their families, you are never going to be popular. Hamilton and his father just need to shutup and do their job next season, if Hamilton stops making stupid comments in the media then people will like him again.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

It's not only laughable, it shows a complete lack of understanding, because the reason people don't like Hamilton is because of statements like that. If you complain and talk about quitting when you earn millions, in a time when people are losing their homes and struggling to earn enough to feed their families, you are never going to be popular. Hamilton and his father just need to shutup and do their job next season, if Hamilton stops making stupid comments in the media then people will like him again.

That's crap and you know it!

The problem isn't the foreign fans, its the UK 'fans'.
The guy has made big sacrifices to get his kid the best chance and, by a combination of hard work, dedication, immense skill and some luck, they have come through, they have delivered amazing results, and half of the country seems to hate them for it.
So why shouldn't they consider quitting? Why is it laughable? Is it suddenly a law of the natural universe that earning millions means you MUST enjoy your job and that you MUST NOT consider quitting?
The problem is that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't...
If they refuse to be open with the press, they get criticised by folks like you for toeing the line with the Maclaren PR machine, if on the other hand, they are open and honest, you slam them as well - seems like no surprise at all to me that they have considered quitting. I really hope they don't though even if its just to prove a point to all the haters.

Quote from col :

The problem isn't the foreign fans, its the UK 'fans'.
The guy has made big sacrifices to get his kid the best chance and, by a combination of hard work, dedication, immense skill and some luck, they have come through, they have delivered amazing results, and half of the country seems to hate them for it.
So why shouldn't they consider quitting? Why is it laughable? Is it suddenly a law of the natural universe that earning millions means you MUST enjoy your job and that you MUST NOT consider quitting?
The problem is that they're damned if they do and damned if they don't...
If they refuse to be open with the press, they get criticised by folks like you for toeing the line with the Maclaren PR machine, if on the other hand, they are open and honest, you slam them as well - seems like no surprise at all to me that they have considered quitting. I really hope they don't though even if its just to prove a point to all the haters.

I agree, good post imho.

I don't think they (he) will quit because he obviously enjoys the job so much, but it's not surprising to read that they're not having a particularly nice time when the media seems to be full of massively ott criticism, and unreasonable rants by people who think they've stabbed their pet rabbits in the eye or something.
UK fans really are rubbish. They seem to think they're owed something by whoever actually is able to win at their sport and also happens to be British. The reaction to a sign of weakness is like a pack of know-it-all dogs.
It's a sign of the times maybe when people take such pleasure in shooting a compatriot down (with words). Some even want to see them fail just so they can smugly say I told you so.

If you don't like him show support for a driver you do like, don't just be one of the drones that thinks it's clever to be the one chatting negative crap all the time. Nobody gives a damn.

Quote from Mustafur :

Hes fault really, the team asked what tires he wanted he wanted inters and failed.
Everytime Lewis set fast times Vettel matched it, and he was out the front coasting with a huge lead.

Nearly a whole page of essay bs and you base BMW's whole season performance on the last corner, sorry but that is just pathetic.

Its funny How people Claim Massa sucks because he can only win from the front row yet he has won the most races this season, what does that say.

Plus show me a race start this season that beats Massas Hungry attempt

So your just going to ignore what i wrote and dismiss it as BS so you dont have to respond to the valid points in there? Noice!
I wish i was ignorant enough to do that.

Its funny though, you claim i base it on 1 corner, yet i was talking about the whole season, while your insistant on talking about the last couple of races... im amazing how 2-faced you can be about something.

Your saying that Lewis wasnt able to match Vettels speed in Monza? hmm, maybe the fact that he had to pass FOURTEEN cars in order to acheive a win, which he would have got, while Vettel sat and drove an uninterupted, unchallenged race.

Also, if your talking about fastest race lap, Vettel didnt get it, Kimi did, so in that case the Ferrari was faster.
So basically, in terms of race pace over ~90min, Hamilton was faster than him, and in terms of fastest lap in the race, Kimi was faster than him... as was: Bourdais, Webber, Massa, Lewis, Heidfeld, JENSON BLOODY BUTTON, Glock, Alonso, Rosberg, Nakajima, Kubica and Kovi.
But hey, he beat Sutil

I know those are all based on laps done right at the end when Vettel didnt need to push (although he was, if you watched the interviews he refused to slow down till the last lap).
But even if midway through the race he held a fastest lap, the fact that Lewis would have won if it wasnt for the timing of the weather changing, forcing him to make an unscheduled stop, so you cant come from 15th to 1st without the leaders making a mistake or being faster than them for a significant proportion of the race.
Im not disputing the fact that what Vettel acheived was way above what is expected from him, thats obvious, however you (anyone) cant say he was the fastest driver that race as he just wasnt.

"Its funny How people Claim Massa sucks because he can only win from the front row yet he has won the most races this season, what does that say."
It says he's started on the front row of a race quite a lot of times, and if he had the balls & ability to overtake people midway through a race and come through the field he'd have wrapped the title up without the FIA's help giving him free points, ignoring blatent rules broken he's entirely responsible for, while punishing him for the same issue which was the teams fault when he was already well out of contention to pick up some points.

Im not saying he sucks, but he isnt a worthy champion IMO. The fact that Kimi had to drop back ~20sec in China to let him get undeserved points so hes only 7 points away instead of 9, which should have been 10 if the FIA didnt make BS rulings to gift points. I havent seen enough from Massa to say he's a potential F1 champion, maybe the pain of missing out this year will drive his determination... who knows.

Quote from Linsen :

What a useless article and a useless statement by Hamilton Sr. It's like that in every high profile sport. "Fans" will always be like that and use the sport to act out patriotism or national chauvinism. It's not always pretty and some countries (or supporters of certain teams) are worse than others, but to start whining and talk about quitting when you earn millions, is laughable.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

It's not only laughable, it shows a complete lack of understanding, because the reason people don't like Hamilton is because of statements like that. If you complain and talk about quitting when you earn millions, in a time when people are losing their homes and struggling to earn enough to feed their families, you are never going to be popular. Hamilton and his father just need to shutup and do their job next season, if Hamilton stops making stupid comments in the media then people will like him again.

Just take a step back a moment, both of you, and think about what your saying. Your suggesting that because he's paid millions upon millions for doing his job, and doing it bloody well too, that he should accept racist remarks and insults, as if the money he earns should make it tough luck.

Im guessing both of you earn something, can you both give me a ballpark figure so i know what level of insults its acceptable to throw at you and your family based on your income

Hammy deserved it, afterall Massa shouldn't have even been awarded that extra point the FIA gave him after the Bourdais incident, FACT.

Quote from PaulC2K :

Just take a step back a moment, both of you, and think about what your saying. Your suggesting that because he's paid millions upon millions for doing his job, and doing it bloody well too, that he should accept racist remarks and insults, as if the money he earns should make it tough luck.

Im guessing both of you earn something, can you both give me a ballpark figure so i know what level of insults its acceptable to throw at you and your family based on your income

+1

Millionaire or pauper neither deserved to be abused on the color of there skin,Arrogance on the other hand is colorless and shouldn't be tolerated...

Just caught the race on repeat...

HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITE.

Never would I have imaged it coming so close. I mean, are you fracking kidding me? Last race, last lap, last corner(?), by one point!??!?!!??!! What is this some sort of movie? Some sort of sick television drama serial? You couldn't script a work of fiction as crazy as this season has been. DAMN!

Welp, congrats Hamilton. Ugh... gutted for Massa. I'm gonna go console my Lego Massa...

DAMN!

Alonso stays at Renault.

Piquet, too.

Quote from Mattesa :

Just caught the race on repeat...

HOLY SHIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIITE.

Never would I have imaged it coming so close. I mean, are you fracking kidding me? Last race, last lap, last corner(?), by one point!??!?!!??!! What is this some sort of movie? Some sort of sick television drama serial? You couldn't script a work of fiction as crazy as this season has been. DAMN!

Welp, congrats Hamilton. Ugh... gutted for Massa. I'm gonna go console my Lego Massa...

DAMN!

Coming next week..... Mattesa discovers who will be the next President of the USA...

Quote from zeugnimod :

Alonso stays at Renault.

Piquet, too.

From article: "This gives the ING Renault F1 Team one of the most exciting driver pairings with the perfect blend of youth and experience,"


I'm not sure, perfect blend of crashing and winning maybe?

Mclaren must have had the car set up to run just for 4th/5th position because Hamilton would of most likely of finished on the podium. Also, do any of you reckon they turned his engine down a little to make mechanical failures less likely?