meh, whatever - you interpret it one way, I do another...I'll be stepping away from ths thread now seeing as some people in here are too stubborn to talk constructively with....
meh, whatever - you interpret it one way, I do another...I'll be stepping away from ths thread now seeing as some people in here are too stubborn to talk constructively with....
OK...Hold fire everybody!!!!!
I have noticed a slight trend here; only slight, I will admit, but it seems to me that we have a difference of opinion in that everybody is stating from their own personal experiences.
Basically, on one side we have Andy, Mookie and myself, with Kev leading the 'opposition'(with help from others, of course!)
When one of us (Andy, Mookie or I) make a statement, all we hear basically is: "Pics or STFU!!!1!!"..OK, so they ask for links etc...as if what we are saying is too far-fetched to be true.
If anybody cares to look CLOSELY at our various profiles, you will notice that all three of us live in the Midlands, and I believe that the closer you get to the Capital, the greater the influence of the so-called "PC" brigade.
Whether people like to admit it or not, there IS a North/South divide in England, and regional demographics play a large part in the way we view life.
Also, one must take into account the direct local government and the way that the local populace is run...each local council runs and introduces local bye-laws to suit the local population, I am sure that Kev would not be happy with Oxfordshire County Council deciding how York should be run, in the same way that I would disagree with Yorkshire County Council controlling Oxford.
The point I am trying to make is, although I have heard "But we are all the same!" (when talking about race/creed/etc), the truth is, even we, the indigenous people are different from each other! We all have differening views on a lot of subjects, so let us just agree to differ.
I suppose now, that I will be accused of being a member of the Oxford Popular Front or something else just as absurd....
(Note to Sam..I didn't miss Kevs point at all; what I should have done was to highlight the part of his post that I was answering....that of 40-60 year olds not knowing what to do...)
I have noticed a slight trend here; only slight, I will admit, but it seems to me that we have a difference of opinion in that everybody is stating from their own personal experiences.
Basically, on one side we have Andy, Mookie and myself, with Kev leading the 'opposition'(with help from others, of course!)
When one of us (Andy, Mookie or I) make a statement, all we hear basically is: "Pics or STFU!!!1!!"..OK, so they ask for links etc...as if what we are saying is too far-fetched to be true.
If anybody cares to look CLOSELY at our various profiles, you will notice that all three of us live in the Midlands, and I believe that the closer you get to the Capital, the greater the influence of the so-called "PC" brigade.
Whether people like to admit it or not, there IS a North/South divide in England, and regional demographics play a large part in the way we view life.
Also, one must take into account the direct local government and the way that the local populace is run...each local council runs and introduces local bye-laws to suit the local population, I am sure that Kev would not be happy with Oxfordshire County Council deciding how York should be run, in the same way that I would disagree with Yorkshire County Council controlling Oxford.
The point I am trying to make is, although I have heard "But we are all the same!" (when talking about race/creed/etc), the truth is, even we, the indigenous people are different from each other! We all have differening views on a lot of subjects, so let us just agree to differ.
I suppose now, that I will be accused of being a member of the Oxford Popular Front or something else just as absurd....
(Note to Sam..I didn't miss Kevs point at all; what I should have done was to highlight the part of his post that I was answering....that of 40-60 year olds not knowing what to do...)
woah that just upped it a notch, we've gone from hating jolly foreigner to hating Southerners...
OK I know you didn't say hate, just highlighting a point. You believe in geography as a geo political force that divides people. I dont.
OK I know you didn't say hate, just highlighting a point. You believe in geography as a geo political force that divides people. I dont.
I agree with what you say.
But you've forgot me from a few pages back with 5haz
I live less than 45 minutes down the Motorway from London (Thatcham, nr Newbury), and I'm on the more extreme side of this.. same boat as Tristan. Talk about miss the whole point, Becky.
Another thing ive noticed over the last couple of weeks this kind of subject there or there abouts seems to be the hot topic on alot of forums i visit (threads not started by me honest) maybe its something to do with the current economic climate i dunno and people looking for some body to blame
tbh I think you did miss Kev's point by latching on to the "40-60" age group, which I'm in and Kev isn't far short of either - though he probably won't want to be reminded of it.
Kev's point, and it is well made, is that people in the 40-60 age range started out their lives calling black people "nignogs", they learned about racism, they understand that it's wrong, they are GLAD of the end of that era and are actively supporting the end of racism as they have known it all their formative lives.
But they don't actually KNOW how to go about it. And they do stupid things, and when they're in positions of power they enact silly by-laws. That's Kev's point, and it's the point you missed.
FTR, despite these claims that "Christmas" is being systematically removed from the British vocabulary, I haven't seen a single TV advert yet this year that refers to Christmas as anything other than Christmas. Neither do I expect that it will happen in the future. A small group of local councillors in a few places make silly attempts to legislate silly rules, but they ALL get shouted down. You don't need to back a few idiots in the BNP to protect British culture from a few other idiots.
I am not on any side other than my own, I am not being lead by someone, and I can compromise on my own ideals to reach a constructive and fair conclusion. Everyone is not the same, but you should give everyone the same basic rights and opportunities.
You're welcome to contribute to the thread just like anybody else, but if you're not willing (able?) to tell me what you're talking about then I can't reasonably be expected to be able to argue with you properly.
You might have a point. Although looking at the google maps mash-up of BNP members (I know you're not a BNP member, bear with me) a rather more obvious trend is easy to spot; they have greater concentrations of support wherever there's a large local ethnic population (Liverpool, Greater Manchester, West Yorkshire, Birmingham, Central London, etc.). That contradicts your assumption somewhat, suggesting that BNP supporters have a bigger problem with race than they do with equality legislation. Or if "PC" really is the problem then it's just as bad oop north.
Sam's response was pretty much on the money. What I should've also said was that the people who are put in the position of ensuring racial equality (employers, civil servants) should also be receiving better guidance from the government on how to implement these policies fairly. I still maintain that a lot of these "bad" decisions are caused by trying to over-comply with the law and often by people who are still uncomfortable with their own experience of racism, but the government need to provide more support.
...or the government and other employers can hire people based solely on their experience and education instead of race. The gov. should in no way decide how the private sector hires workers.
.. or their gender... which is, historically, what they have NOT done, because until fairly recently it was felt that...
... but the proof of the pudding showed that, without gov. intervention, people were NOT hired for skills and experience and were racially and sexually discriminated against.
Positive discrimination (or affirmative action, in the US) was never intended to be a permanent solution. It was intended to be a short-term means of addressing a tangible imbalance. Until people ARE hired and paid entirely based on their skills and experience, and as soon as employers can be trusted to NOT allow race or gender to influence their recruitment/advancement, the argument for PD/AA is stronger than the argument against it.
The fact is that you can't GAIN skills or experience unless the opportunity to do so exists. Nobody WANTS a mandatory, discriminatory hiring pool, but it is a necessary evil until equality is an inherent characteristic of both the recruitment pool and the employment hierarchy. This WILL take longer than half a workforce generation*, and you will just have to lump it until the workplace is inherently fair.
* The concept of positive discrimination/affirmative action is ~45 years old. It is far younger than that in worklevel terms.
I used to work at Bombardier transportation, on the shop floor there was 200 people spread over 5 shifts, there was 1 woman not because of discrimination but because there arent many women with the qualifications.
However there was a standard promotion process, you started out as a maintenance personel then if you proved yourself after 2/3 years you could be made a support tech if you pass the interview in the top 8 out of 30 others, but you would never get the job on the first try as its really a queing system.
Then after another couple of years and college you would be a full tech from there it would be another 2 years to go on from there to ethier a specialist tech or management.
But you can forget all that if your a 22 year old blonde girl, she worked for 8 months as maintenance personel then took the place of some one who had waited 3 years for a chance to be promoted, she got promoted first time out then was only a support tech for 10 months and had'nt even finished her college course before being promoted to a full tech (again ahead of other guys who had worked hard and proven them selves) then another 18 months and promotion to the job she really wanted which was a specialist tilt tech. All because she was female and it looked good on the company books and promotional photos.
However they had spent so long blowing sunshine up her arse and not really teaching her anything that she was pretty usless at her job.
And just as an example of what a sickening 'everybodys equal' pc hell hole that place is to work at heres a promontional photograph ive just pulled of their web site:
God its like a un meeting
God its like a un meeting
:rolleyes:
:sleep2:
:sleep2:
[sarcasm]hmm, less men than women, one man of which is asian, and a lovely-jubbly ethnic mix of women too, what's not to like?[/sarcasm] That promotional photo sums up everything wrong with employment in this country, and you can't argue against it when you hear on the news along the lines of 'government aims to employ 60% of people from disadvantaged/minority/female backgrounds'.
And we wonder why the country is in such deep shit at the moment? They're employing people based on physical appearance, not ability, and you can't argue against that because it is happening, or are you too blinkered to realise that SamH?
And we wonder why the country is in such deep shit at the moment? They're employing people based on physical appearance, not ability, and you can't argue against that because it is happening, or are you too blinkered to realise that SamH?
Maybe we should repatriate all the disabled people and the women, it's the only reasonable way to keep them out of our white male dominated government.
That's not racism nor discrimination, that old mens' only chance.
What's wrong with that picture? Seriously.
Its a totally fabricated situation, a complete lie to 'try' and show the fantastic diversity that is present at companys like bombardier to tick all the right pc boxes. I have been witness to this kind of thing first hand in that on our shift which was A shift we had around 40 guys on the shop floor, of those 40 we had one female (see above) one black guy and one asian guy called Prit (who im still good friends with).
The company was in the process of making a news letter and they took 4 people from various positions in the company who all had to stand together and have their photo taken. From the shop floor they took one person ..... Prit (did they just pick him because he was the first to hand do you think or because of his race?) then from other positions the took a black woman a chinese man (the only chinese man in the whole building) and white woman. At the time Prit was non the wiser but when the news letters came out everone used to rip on him for being a pc show horse.
I and nobody else will look at those pictures and think: Wow what a fantasticly diverse work place. People will ethier not notice at all or like me they will see through the bs and know that if your a hard working proven skilled employee if your a white male you will have a hard enough time trying to compete with the other hard working skilled white males for promotion but may aswell not bother trying to compete with ethnic minoritys or females in the same position as they will be given a free ride to the top because of what they are not because of their skills/experience.
I'm out. I'm not gonna volunteer to suffer fools.
I've had to work damned hard to get where I am today. To do it i've had to shine brighter than everybody else. I've never played any race, gender or any other card. I've just worked damned hard to be the best person for promotion.
Maybe you should stop looking at career advancement as a right of passage and start looking at how good you are at what you do, and how much effort you put in.
When you are discriminated against you have to shine the brightest to be chosen. If you think that being a white man in a white male dominated industry that you've less chances for promotion - then damned well work harder.
I've had to work myself to the point of ill health to get ahead, why should you be any different?
When the 65th hour of work without sleep comes, when you've worked so hard that you goto the fridge and realise you have to take some time out because you've run out of food and you feel guilty about it because you want the project completed, when you have to make a 3am drive home to feed the cats because they've not been tended to for a few days - all so that you can be the one thats at the front of the queue when promotion comes, then you have a right to say you are discriminated against if the ethnic group A is checked.
I'm the only female senior staff at my company, i'm the only senior staff without a share package, but i'll be damned if i'll be last in the queue when the rewards are divied out.
I dont expect prefferential treatment, I dont demand it, and I dont get it. I just make sure that when push comes to shove i'm the one that is always there making the difference.
That is what entitles you to promotion, not waiting in a queue.
People who wait in a queue are expecting what is 'rightfully theirs'. The only thing that is rightfully yours is what you have earned and what you've taken.
The only reward for long service is a carriage clock on the day you retire.
Please look at the example above, there was a set promotional procedure in place before this female started to work there and it is still in place after she has left, I had to go through it as did everybody else, apart from 1 female ..... if you dont see that as preferential treatment because of her gender then you must be insane. Unless she was so good at her job far far better than anyone who has gone before or since (so good that the management who have never even spoke to her or know anything about her work chose to promote her) that she was a special case.... I can tell you from knowing her very well that she was very intelligent but no more than guys who had bee promoted aswell.
Oh and this has nothing to do with my personal employment anymore as i no longer work there. And well done Becky on jumping to the conclusion that I dont work hard or am not good at my job.
How about having a motorbike accident and being in a wheel chair then going back to work in a dangerous enviroment when you cant walk properly?
Or having a operation on your stomach and being signed off work for 8 weeks but returning after 2.
Or breaking your wrist and having a op being signed of for 4 weeks then returning to work a week later?
Or having the left side of your face paralyzed so you can blink or talk or eat/drink but not even taking a day off work?
Is that good enough?
We clearly work in very different situations i do not sit in a air conditioned office tapping on a keyboard, if you did what i do for 65 hours you would
A, Be fired as its law that you cannot work in a safety critical enviroment for more than 12 hours without a break.
B, Collapse and die from exhaustion
How about the time i volunteered to work outside at a depot in manchester boxing day evening even though it was -4 even though i worked 18 hours (including travel time) i could only claim 8?
Everyone has problems Becky.
You two both need to find new jobs. I really wouldn't want a job as shitty as the ones you do.
I love my current job even though i dont get paid overtime.... not really a problem until i have to travel aboard. I've had to go to places like Rome for a week to fix some metro Roma trains no extra pay (atleast i got to see the colosseumand the vatican museum before i left
)I believe you have missunderstood what I was saying. I in no way commented on the girl, I dont know her and the only story I have regarding her is a biased one - therefore defending her would be foolish, and dismissing your story isnt going to work either as you believe in it, it would be like saying your religion is wrong - I wasnt commenting on it.
I was instead commenting on the fact that you dont get promoted. You cited in your story that there where people who deserved promotion more because they had been in the queue for promotion longer.
I was pointing out that the only reward for long service is a carriage clock, and those who waitin a queue dont get anywhere.
As for my job, I love it, best job I ever had. OK sure i'll take the laptop round when I visit my parents and get some work done before Sunday lunch and what have you, I work hard, but only because I choose too. The last week I didnt work hard (because I needed an easy week), on the whole I clock in many extra hours and try to consistently over deliver because I want to improve my situation, that's the point I was making.
I cast no judgement on your ability to do your job. I'm simply stating that if you want to get ahead the way to do it is not to wait for promotion, but to go out and sieze promotion, and descrimination be damned - if you shine bright enough you'll be chosen anyway.
BNP membership data leaked - whoops!
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