A: 9,0 cm (as shown on image) - 14,8 (widest point)
B: 17,5 cm (widest point)
C: 26,0 cm (widest point)
D: 14,8 cm (widest point)
E: 13,7 cm (at bottom) - 15,5 cm (widest point above bottom)
F: 27,5 cm (widest point)
G: 42,9 cm (widest point)
H: 31,1 cm (widest point)

Quote from Niels Heusinkveld :

Although that surely looks kinda cool, I would've just gotten a cheap USB controller from Leo Bodnar ($30) and simply wire the buttons to that! This is very well done though, don't get me wrong..

I know, many people suggested that. But I did not have a gamepad laying around, however I did have a DFP doing nothing but collecting dust, so...

I'd rather recycle some hardware than to buy new stuff.

Besides, I already had the DFP while I was thinking about modding the G25. So I could look inside it and see if it's internals would fit inside the G25 housing. If I had chosen a gamepad, I'd first have to buy it before I could see whether or not I could fit it in. Another advantage of using the wheel's electronics is that it was designed to be used in a wheel: it has the ability to address many buttons through few wires (8 wires for 16 buttons - just to make sure everything fits in the tiny hole of the steering axle). A gamepad is probably designed differently. Besides, I've seen the internals of a few gamepads and they often use one large PCB stretching from the left to the right. That's a quite large PCB. I doubt I could make it fit inside the G25 as I did with the DFP's board. I *could* cut the board to remove the button areas, but on the internals I've seen the electronic components are spread all over the PCB. I'm not saying it's not possible. Maybe it would have been a lot easier than my approach, but I had several reasons to do it my way and the most important thing is the result

Quote from Tweaker :

TBH, I think you've added wayyy too many buttons. Will you really need that many? :o

No I don't... As I wrote, this used to be the prototype. The goal of the prototype was to put as many buttons on it as possible and then find out which buttons should remain and which could go. Especially the top row could do with less buttons.

But I liked the prototype so much (the looks, not necessary the amount of buttons) I changed plans and used the prototype as final product. That saves me a huge amount of work

If the protype ever becomes damaged (paint comes off for example), I'll make a "real" final one using CNC machines (the prototype was completely hand made). Then I can leave out the buttons I don't use anyway.

Quote :

It would be cool if some areas of the buttons were replaced by LEDs or something. Having a row of LEDs along the top would be really neat to have function with OutGuage.

There have been ideas along that line, but in the end I ditched them. Why should I add LED indicators for something I can already see on my monitor? Traction control light, visual rpm counter, shift indicator,... the sky is the limit, but it all is already displayed on screen. So why bother

My goal wasn't to make the G25 look very realistic, my goal was to add buttons to make it more usable to my own needs while still maintaining a professional look. I think I succeeded in that.

Quote from TagForce :

Very nice... Allow me to persuade you to do the G25 Xtreme... These buttons, +Axis operated handbrake, + LCD display

An LCD display is not an option. I'd spend way too much time on that for something I can already see on-screen. But an axis operated e-brake is something I have been thinking about. Thanks due this mod I now have extra axes from the DFP electronics (accelerate/brake) that are left ubnused for the moment.

Anyway, that's for later... Much later. I don't use the handbrake very often, so it doesn't get high priority.

Another thing in planning are better positioned pedals.

I concluded work on my G25 "Pro" mod. Last week I made several paperboard button plates to see what looked best and was most practical to use. I also got the buttons I wanted to use so I could begin on the final phase of the mod.



These are the buttons I opted for. Maybe a weird choice because those are PCB mounting buttons where chassis mounting would have been more logical. But, these buttons are short, have a nice feel to it (a similar click to the two existing buttons on the G25) and are very cheap. I couldn't find any affordable chassis mounting buttons that would be better. The buttons have about the same diameter as the two G25 buttons (9 mm). I did order crimson colored buttons, but I got wine red buttons. Obviously the manufacturer took the note "Picture may differ from actual product" very literaly. Anyway, that's not a problem. Wine red is nice too



And this is the prototype button plate made from 2 mm thick aluminium. The sides were folded to provide extra stiffness to the plate. Remaining gaps and openings were filled with polyester and after some good sanding the result was really smooth without sharp edges. A primer was applied to the plate, followed by a nice mat black finish. I chose mat black because it contrasts well with the spokes of the G25 wheel without making the heart of the G25 look too thick.

The tiny black bars coming out of the bottom are actually bolts that got painted too. That's not a problem, some acetone quickly gets rid of that. The bolts are required because I use PCB mounting buttons. In other words: there should be a PCB behind the button plate on which the buttons come. Not the most easy approach (definitely not to hide the bolt heads at the front side), but I just couldn't find better buttons. The bolts are quite a bit too long in the above picture. I forgot to shorten them before spraying, damn

Originally I intended to make a final button plate after this prototype using CNC machines and then anodising the aluminium with a nice black coating, but the prototype was already looking very good. So I decided to go further with the prototype. If the paintjob ever comes off I still might make a final button plate. For now, the prototype will do. It has a professional look to it.

There's a lot of holes in the button plate. There's room for 16 buttons. This is probably overkill, but better too much than not enough. Since this was intended to be only a prototype I wanted to max out the number of buttons to see what was practical and still looking good. Some will probably think it's too dense with all the buttons, I actually liked it. I didn't feel any need to bring down the number of buttons. By using two colors for the buttons I could make groups to make it appear less dense.



Here you can see how the button plate will be mounted to the G25 wheel. The plastic Logitech logo piece grips through the 6 holes in the G25 wheel into the 6 holes of the button plate. No way it can move once it's mounted. The folded sides are only 15 mm high so they don't obstruct the paddles.

If you wondered what the cut-out parts in the previous picture were for: the 2 G25 buttons sit in these openings.

That doesn't look to bad, don't you think? I'm glad I stepped away from my first thoughts to drill holes in the G25 wheel for the buttons. With my current approach I didn't toch the nice stainless steel spokes.

While I had already made several paperboard models, this was the first time I could actually operate the buttons and feel whether or not they were good to use. The four red buttons above the middle are very easy to reach with your thumbs. You can still operate the paddles while pressing them. This was one of the goals of the mod: to have more (now six instead of two) buttons you can operate without moving hands.

While I still had the wheel apart I took the time to place small rubber strips on the backside of the paddles where they go into the steering axle. This simple mod fixes the bouncing when you let go the paddle rapidly and prevents the movement of the other paddle if you operate one. For the other buttons one has to move his hand, but the buttons have enough spacing to find them blindly. I'm really surprised with how good the overall feeling is.

Then it was time to connect everthing and put the wheel back together. Connecting the wires wasn't exactly a pleasant job because there are a lot of wires and they all seem to lead to their own life. Everytime you thought you had the wheel good on the steering axle it turned out there was a wire in wrong position blocking the mounting. But eventually I got the whole thing back together

So ladies and gentlemen... May I present to you: the G25 "Pro"...

Quote from Sawyer :

So what exactly is used for the 900 hardlocks? Cuz my locks sound like they gonna brake anytime soon. When the autocalibration on start kicks in it goes first right which sounds like hitting rubber then it goes all the way left and sound like hitting plastic stuff which isnt really tight. Just hope it wont wreck on me on its own.

At the end of the steering axle are a cam and a gear. The gear moves a toothed rack on the bottom of the G25. At both ends of the toothed racks are flat areas. If you rotate the wheel towards the left or right 900° lock the flat areas on the toothed rack come close to the steering axle until the cam hits the flat area and the wheel cannot turn any further.

Maybe you think the 900° lock is a bit flimsy because the toothed rack has some play on it. That may make it feel and sound like the lock isn't really solid - but it is. It may be plastic, but it's thick plastic. I'm quite sure you can break it if you want to, but other parts in the wheel will probably break before that.

Quote from Panda :

just finished the first prototype of my G25 280mm to MOMO 350mm conversion.

Looking nice already. I hope you finish the mod soon so we can see close ups of the coupling device. I'm wondering how you fixed the MOMO to the G25.

Quote :

i will say that this does give a very very different feel to the G25, i think its alot smoother, less roughness even when using 200% force in game. the weight of the MOMO 350mm is nearly the same as the 280mm, if not lighter (god damn was i suprised that the G25 wheel was so heavy). so i dont think its causing any extra stress. alloy > steel.

This surprises me. I expected the MOMO to be quite a bit heavier. Of course it's meant for racing so it should be light, but the G25 is just a toy. The MOMO should be a lot sturdier.

Quote from Iron :

What about the more steering lock of the DFP over Momo? I know it means more precision, but do you really need that?

No you don't need it, but you don't even need a wheel to play Live For Speed. It's more about realism and of course the extra accuracy is welcome.

Quote :

I mean F1 drivers use only 200 degrees lock or so (during race, i know they have more lock, for steering into the garage for example). But I guess in the slower cars you could do with more lock.

Open wheel racers have 270° lock-to-lock, GTR cars 540° and street cars 720°. So if you're a die hard F1 fan, you set the DFP to 270° (you don't have to use the full 900° the wheel offers - you can limit it at whatever value you wish). In this case you won't notice much difference from a regular 200-240° wheel. However, if you prefer street cars and set the wheel to 720° you'll experience a whole new thing.

Quote :

Do Momo users lose a lot because of the less sensitivity? Is it a problem?

It's not a problem. We all managed to race and set fast laps during the days there was no talk of 900° wheels. You don't set the wheel to a larger angle for the extra accuracy, you do it to match the car's situation to make it more realistic.

Quote :

How much advantage is the DFP's wider lock - taking into account that you can't turn the wheel really fast as i heard, so countersteering is harder.

Countersteering is obviously a bit more difficult when using large steering angles. But so it is in real life with a street car (again the realism). A negative point is indeed that the DFP turns a bit heavy making countersteering harder than it should be. But once you are used to the wheel you won't have much problems with that... Look at all the drift movies of people using a DFP. Did they have problems with it? Apparantly not.

If you would like a wheel that also offers up to 900° steering but turns a lot faster, take a look at the Logitech G25. Note that this wheel costs quite a bit more than the DFP or MOMO.

[Edit] Personally, I would never go back to a 200° wheel like the MOMO Force - not even the red one. The G25 I now have is a major improvement in all fields, but even the DFP with its shortcomings gave me more realism than the MOMO. It may have been different if I was an F1 racer, but I rarely drive open wheel racers. Just give me street and GTR cars with a 720°/540° wheel and I'm happy.

Last edited by SatCP, Thu, 30 Nov 2006 15:32.

Quote from Funnycat :

Oh yeah, 2 days after my warranty time for the Momo Racing ran out, it looked like this:

Nice wheel! But aren't those buttons a bit small?

Quote from Tweaker :

Mind if I ask what kind of camera you have? Off topic, but these are nice photos

All pictures are made with the controversial Sony Cybershot DSC-F828, a camera that has been trashed for its purple fringing and noise at higher ISO values. Although you cannot deny the camera has certain issues, if you know the pitfalls and avoid them it's one of the best prosumer cams - ever. I also have a way more expensive Canon EOS 20D but I still tend to use the Sony because it's very easy to use and gets great pictures out of the box.



The pictures in this thread aren't really good, though ;D. Brightness isn't constant, a lot overbrightened white, incorrect color balance, bad lighting,... Maybe I'm a bit too much of a perfectionist, but like I said, I didn't want to spend too much time on it. I wasn't even intending to take pictures, but someone at the Dutch forum Gathering Of Tweakers asked for pictures, so...

Back on topic...

I took the cables going through the steering axle out again. I wasn't satisfied by it since there seemed to be a bit of wear on the protective heat shrinks of both cables where they go in the axle. So I took the shrinks off, took all wires together and put those in a new thicker heat shrink. The resulting cable is thinner than both old cables, but better protected. I also added a cable support to make sure the cable is coming as straight as possible out of the steering axle. Small improvement, but the wheel may benifit from it on the long run.

I also started working on the buttons plate. It's beginning to look quite nice. Pictures coming this weekend.

Quote from Speedier :

Is DFP a loud wheel because of the force feedback? I thought you can turn FF down as much as you want.

The DFP is loud because of its gearbox - not the force feedback. As Nighthawk already mentioned, it will wake up people sleeping in the room next to you if you make a lot of rapid lock-to-lock movements. The larger steering angle doesn't help much either because you have to turn a lot more to get the same effect - thus more noise. If you steer smoothly without having to countersteer too much the wheel's noise production is acceptable, though.

If you can live with the with the noise, the DFP is a great wheel. I'd recommend it over the MOMO Force, but if you have the money you may take a look at the DFP & MOMO Force successor, the Logitech G25.

Quote from Eggi :

spend 30-40€ more and buy a 6800GT - 256MB
20-30% faster, like the A400TDH (If: Search for the 6800GT Edition!)

The topic starter can get the 6600 for free, so I don't think an extra € 30 - 40 is going to get him a 6800GT

Quote from mrfell :

At the moment i've got a fx5900xt 128mb.
I have just been offered (free) a geforce 6600 (not gt) 256mb, is this worth upgrading to?

A standard 6600 performs slightly worse than a FX5900XT, unless you use some of the newer technology the nVidia 6xxx series introduced (especially shader-heavy stuff). However, LFS doesn't, so don't expect any improvement. A 6600GT card on the other hand is a lot faster than the 6600 and is a considerable improvement over the 5900XT. Since you can get the 6600 for free, you may want to try to overclock the 6600 to get near 6600GT speeds.

Nothing's lost by trying. If you use somewhat recent nVidia drivers you don't even have to uninstall/reinstall drivers. Just remove the 5900XT and replace it with the 6600. If it doesn't satisfy you or you can't overclock it far enough to make a real difference, take it out and put the 5900XT back.

Quote from Shotglass :

maybe the anti backlash actually makes it worse though all the ideas i had on why it would do that didnt really work out

I wish I could take apart the anti backlash cogwheel, but I didn't dare to take off the bearing from the axle. The bearing is pressed quite hard on the axle, and with all the plastic I didn't want to break things. It would be interesting though, to see what happens if you take the anti backlash cog out and only use the main cogwheel.

I hope Logitech drops the double cogwheel design in a successor and goes for the professional approach by using slant tooth gears. That effectively elimininates both backlash and especially noise when made correctly.

Quote from Rtsbasic :

If one motor is removed, do you think there'll be a loss in the FF felt? Not the strength as thats obvious, but I mean does the wheel software instruct each motor to do different things and so you'd loose out on some feel with just one motor.

Both motors are placed in parallel, so they do exactly the same. So no, you would not loose out on feel but the strength will obviously be a lot lower.

It's used to keep the stick in the forward (1, 3, 5), neutral and backward (2, 4, 6, reverse) positions while in the H-shifter mode.



Take a look at the left metal plate on the above picture. You can see three small holes in it. This is where the metal ball is pushed in by the spring so the shifter would be fixed in that position. The stronger you make the spring, the harder it's fixed into position and the more force you need to move it between forward, neutral and backward positions. The nylon ball is softer and doesn't make the loud click noise.

Quote from sidi :

Unplugging either of the motors makes noise disappear completely.

I just tried this and I can confirm it. The noise is completely gone if you take out one motor (doesn't matter which one). But that's of course not an option

But then, what's causing it and why don't have all wheels the same problem?

Quote from sidi :

I would also like to add that in no way i regret buying this wheel as imo it's still far better than dfp and because i only use between 270-300 degree it's very rarely i hear the noise.

Same here. It's a wheel with flaws, but the goods make it up. Yes, of course I could buy way better pedals from BRD, or an excellent shifter from Frex, or... But nothing can beat the price tag of the G25.

I'm using it in 540-720° mode and I really love it. It's somewhat noisier to the left, but still it's way more silent than my old DFP. Maybe I'm just lucky to have one of the good G25s? On the other hand... A product's overall impression can be completely wrong on forums because very often the people who don't have any issues with it don't post, whereas the ones with problems don't leave any chance to point others at it . I mean, I know quite a few people who bought a G25 too, and they all love the wheel.

If you remove power from the wheel while in 900° mode, can you rotate the wheel for a full 900°? Or is it also stuck at 810° this way?

Maybe something came loose inside and is blocking full rotation?

You could open the DFP's case and take a peek for yourself what happens. You can open the DFP very easily without doing any visible damage if you use good screwdrivers. You only have to remove the small sunken screws at the bottom (I believe 8 - don't have the DFP here at hand). No need to take the wheel off like with the G25.

Things to check inside:

- At the back of the motor you'll see an optical rotation sensor. Make sure there's no dust or dirt on the transmitter or receiver, or in the tiny slots in the larger black cogwheel.

- When you move the wheel you see the plastic toothed rack on the bottom move left or right. The 900° lock is done by a cam on the steering axle which gets stuck on either end on the toothed rack. When you move the wheel by hand lock to lock, do you see anything that can be obstructing the movement of the toothed rack?
The 200° rotation lock is done by the white plastic piece that can slide into the toothed rack. Does that still look ok? Can you move it by hand in and out (only possible with the wheel in the 200° range)? Is the spring still present? Are the 2 microswitches on the PCB still operated by the 200° lock?

- On the steering axle there's a large cogwheel, mostly covered by the gearbox case but at the top it's open. When you move the weel from left to right you see a small shiny metal strip mounted on the side of this cogwheel. It is used by the center detection sensor. Is it free from dust/dirt and when you move the wheel is there no dirt that could possibly fool the sensor?


Power up the wheel with the case open and connect it to the computer. There are no harmful voltages inside, so no worries. Do you see anything that doesn't seem right? If I recall correctly the calibration sequence of the DFP is as follows:

- If in 200° mode, move 200° lock out of the toothed rack to enable 900° mode.
- Turn all the way to the left.
- Turn all the way to the right (+900°).
- Return to the center position (-450°).
- Move the 200° lock in the toothed rack.
- Turn all the way to the left (-100°).
- Turn all the way to the right (+200°).
- Return to the center position (-100°).
- If the software is set to 900° mode, move the 200° out of the toothed rack to enable 900° mode.

The left LED should now light up continuously. If it blinks, something failed. The right LED lits up only in 900° mode.

I've seen more reports about this issue. I don't think this is a user error. It's probably the small PCB at the end of the shifter shaft not being mounted properly. Or maybe the reverse gear slot isn't cut out properly, although that's unlikely with the used plate stamping process.

If you put the shifter in reverse and then gently push it back to neutral, do you see/feel it popup? It should raise about 1 cm. If it doesn't, you're in the 6th gear slot. If it does, you're in the proper slot but apparantly something isn't working right. Since you're apparantly not feeling fine with opening the thing, just return it for a replament.

AVI does not have a 2 GB file size limit. However, many applications use the totally outdated "Video for Windows" architecture which only allows up to 2 GB in file size.

Solutions? Use a different container format, use different software, use segmented avi,...

Quote from mikey_G :

Well, I'm not gonna open that area because it would require that I have to unscrew everything in the steering wheel. Another reason is that I've had this wheel for only 24 hours and it's the first wheel I've ever opened
Maybe SatCP knows the answer, he probably opened every part in the wheel (well, that's the feeling I get if I see his photographs ).

I took the gearbox apart - just out of interest - while working on my mod. I didn't look into the noise issue at that time since it didn't bother me. Mine is slightly noisier to the left, but not to an extent that it's annoying.

With so many wheels having this issue, I opened the wheel again last night (if "sidi" doesn't post pictures, I will although mine are from AFTER my mod so some things may not match your wheel's internals). I checked the screws that mount the motors to the metal plate, but they are lock tight. I don't think this has anything to do with the issue. When the metal plate with both motors on is taken off the plastic gearbox, I cannot reproduce the noise - or any difference in turning left or right. Not in the steering axle, not in both motors. So it's probably a combination of both parts that's causing the noise.

Maybe it's the double cogwheel as was mentioned elsewhere on this forum, but I tried changing the preload on it and that didn't affect the issue at all.

So at the moment I'm not sure at all what can be done to fix the noise issue. My wheel doesn't make an excessive amount of noise so it's hard to locate the problem or determine slight improvements.

Quote from mikey_G :

What do I do now? Do I really have to disconnect everything there, or is there an easier way?

Unlike with the DFP, you have to take off the G25's wheel and paddles to open the case.

- Remove the hex screws from the plastic Logitech logo. The wheel should now come off. Pay attention though, there are some small wires still connected.
- Inside the axle you see a small PCB that's fixed with just one screw. Take the screw out and you can remove the PCB. On the backside of the PCB you'll find a cable connected coming out of the axle. Disconnect it from the PCB. You can't plug it in the wrong direction, so no need to take notes. Now you can lay the wheel and PCB aside.
- Inside the axle you'll notice 3 screws. Remove them (long screws, so it may take a while). Once that's done, you can take off the paddles.
- You already took out the screws at the bottom, so you should now be able to take the case off.

Last edited by SatCP, Thu, 23 Nov 2006 17:28. Reason : typo

Quote from Tweaker :

Eghhh, I hope this is just an exagerration, or else I'd be dead from blood loss by now :faint:

It's not an exagerration. I didn't cut myself on it though.

The paddles are stamped out of a plate. A disadvantage of this process is that it gives sharp edges at the other side. Looking at the left paddle I can easiliy see that the Logitech workers sanded the sharp bits away and made it smooth. Impossible to cut yourself on this. But on the right paddle there was no trace of sanding at all and at a certain point there was a very sharp brim of about half a millimeter sticking out. Under normal conditions it would be hard to cut yourself badly on this, but in the heat of the moment while turning the wheel rapidly and trying to use the paddles you could easily cut yourself to bleeding. Then again, you can cut yourself to bleeding even with a stupid piece of paper...

Anyway, the point is that there was a sharp brim that shouldn't have been there. Did they forget? I don't know, but this does - in my opinion - indicate a failing quality department or rushed production.

Tweaker: That's exactly what I mean. The G25 is a great product (ok, it has its flaws and trade offs but the price is a lot lower than say BRD wheels and pedals). But the construction quality doesn't seem to be as consistent as with other Logitech products. My wheel also has perfect stitching, but it did have a very sharp right hand paddle which easily could cut your finger to bleeding and it does make a slight bit more noise to the left, though not excessive. But you cannot deny there are people where the wheel sounds like a 747 taking off when turning left, or where the stichwork has a few flaws,... and other small issues.

To me it's still the greatest wheel available and I love every bit of it. I didn't mean to speak bad of it because it's being made in China or has a few minor flaws. It's just that it somewhat looks like rushed production which *may* be explained by the unexpected success of the G25.

Quote from Speedier :

Thanks a lot guys for your help. I will probably go for DFP. Oh and one more question can I some how limit the 900 degree to say 270 on the DFP.

Of course you can.

The DFP features two kinds of steering locks:
* Hard lock at 900° or 200°.
* Soft lock for any angle different from 900° or 200°.

You can set the steering angle in the Logitech software in steps of 1 degree (download the Logitech software from WingMan Team as Logitech doesn't supply software with the wheel). If you set 900° or 200° the wheel will have a hard steering lock. This is, it cannot possibly turn any further beyond this point. At any other angle, there's a soft lock which is nothing but the force feedback giving full resistance to simulate a lock. You can clearly feel this lock, but you can easily turn through it because of the limited force developed by the DFP's motor. Note that when you steer through the lock, the wheel will not register the extra rotation, so it's not like you car can suddenly steer sharper than possible.