good points, col. i think part of the "magic" of lfs is that Scawen built a tire model around the capabilities of a target PC and discarded anything non-essential that stood in the way of the model working: e.g. motion ration can just be 1.0 all the time, shocks and springs don't have to necessarily have real-world values. as long as the thing feels realistic enough, people will like it because - as you said - having a unified dynamic model makes the sim "organic".
now it seems he has said "well, I got that far..." and is trying to do the opposite, build a tire model based on real life that somehow works on a PC too.
it might be interesting to think: screw the scirocco / "perfectly real"-life physics. it might be possible to evolve the lfs universe by going with the original idea and just adding new things like time of day, rain, a different damage model. you know, things that affect online racing and add depth to what is a great sim as is, even though a VW engineer could easily find flaws...
just saying
two things: if i recall correctly, the decision to not release the Scirocco was not made by Scavier. it was more a compliance on their part to some agreement, so there may be something more than personal opinion on the model's performance. (my memory could be faulty here, or this is all hearsay...) also there might have been many revisions sent to some anonymous testers we know nothing about.
second and more importantly, and this is pure speculation, i don't think the tyre model Scawen wants can be 50% or 75% more functional than the current one. having decided which additional parameters need to be modeled, either the real-time calculation models them or it doesn't. (and possibly the parameters all need to be there or the result is no good :shrug
the problem is to generate a good enough approximation to the "bench" result in real-time.
the "bench" can take as long as necessary to tell you the grip given many parameters, load, temperature, wear, surface, etc. what Scawen is trying to do is generate a real-time approximation using all those same parameters.
the reason all this takes so long is called non-linear dynamics. human math so far (yes as compared to say donkey math.. which iRacing must be using?
) has historically focused on linearisation. mathematicians and scientists are always trying to limit the number of variables in their formulae so they can linearise the result, that is to create a linear function.linear functions are great because your computer can give you the answer instantly for a given parameter.
non-linear dynamics, informally "chaos", is a branch of math that hasn't got much attention because -- get this -- it's too hard. want to calculate the rate of flow of water in a pipe? no problem, here is a linear (or close) function for that. take a derivative or two and away you go. want to calculate the rate of flow of water in a river as the bank goes from muddy to sandy and the size of rocks on the river bottom changes, also as the temperature of the water changes? no serious function for this exists because the problem is non-linear. there are too many variables for mathematicians to come up with a "useful" formula.
Scawen has decided to add input parameters to his tyre model. he wants to please us and since we don't like the massive gaping flaws in the LFS model (hihihi) he wants the next one to instantly give you about the same answer as his new bench.
the problem is when you switch from say 2 input parameters to 3, the problem is not 1.5 times harder to calculate. to give you an idea, there is NO function to describe the eventual position of as few as 3 celestial bodies interacting in space, even given full initial conditions. we are able to make good functions to tell you their new position after x time, but only for a small x.
so Scawen is trying to come up with a solution to a problem with basically no supporting research being published in the entire math community. no one wants to touch non-linear dynamics because it is too much to wrap your head around. no company wants to invest because they have no guarantee their math worker will come up with anything. Scawen has decided to brave the risk of coming up with nothing and launched on this journey for the holy grail: a real-time (read approaching linear) function for a non-linear problem.
in 100 or 1000 years this should be no problem. Einstein was right, there is a fundamental relation between all forces and as a corollary there is an elegant way to describe the result of SOME aspects of non-linear systems under SOME conditions, enough for an application like the next LFS tyre model to succeed. it's the equivalent of plotting the eventual path of the eye of a hurricane given all the surrounding wind speeds, air temperatures, **relative humidities of the air masses, very important**, ground effects on nearby air temperatures, position of the sun as time goes on, etc. the trick is in reducing these incalculable bodies to points with minimal additional descriptive parameters, and making these bodies appear and disappear over time as their influence becomes more and less important to the result, IN THE CONTEXT of the result you are after.
he could be working on this for the rest of his life if he choses, because even the next LFS tyre model could be improved
anyway, i'm glad he decided to start on this quest and i'll be thrilled to try any result he comes up with, given the quality of what has been accomplished so far.
accomplished. just wanted to repeat that word since some ingrates seem to always forget that.
edit: humidities of the air masses should never have slipped my mind when making that list!!!
Last edited by CarlLefrancois, .
and in other news, iRacing now has a figure 8 configuration:
"Enhancements to existing tracks include night racing at South Boston and Lanier National Speedway and . . . drum roll . . . iRacing’s first true Figure 8 configuration at Irwindale."
[http://www.iracing.com/inracin ... -headline-season-3-build]
"Enhancements to existing tracks include night racing at South Boston and Lanier National Speedway and . . . drum roll . . . iRacing’s first true Figure 8 configuration at Irwindale."
[http://www.iracing.com/inracin ... -headline-season-3-build]
oh dustin you're just mad because your cursed metal body won't let you do a blazing 29:44.43 like i did today
MUAHAHAHAAAA
finding girls.. hmm not so hard with the internet
but finding one that takes an hour long "race" serious and really thinks accidents caused by distractions would be sad.. now that takes luck
yes it never stopped being wonderful.
yesterday my girlfriend comes home and i go see her: "honey your forehead is all sweaty!" yeah... lfs.
edit: worst thing is i wasn't even online, just trying to do 20 laps of XFG @ fern bay green rev in under 30:00.00
yesterday my girlfriend comes home and i go see her: "honey your forehead is all sweaty!" yeah... lfs.
edit: worst thing is i wasn't even online, just trying to do 20 laps of XFG @ fern bay green rev in under 30:00.00
signed up for a league.
~20 into first race, disco disco disco so no more reconnect. practices were ok
second race i never tried reconnection.
hibernating until internet is fixed
~20 into first race, disco disco disco so no more reconnect. practices were ok
second race i never tried reconnection.
hibernating until internet is fixed
how about inertia in the transmission?
i noticed in my car that the right side of the gearbox has a different synchronising mechanism than the left. each car would be different but they all have this force differential to work out.
is S3 going to model some things like that? (maybe it's not a realistic race transmission, and racing gearboxes are just free of manufacturing defects / ridiculously expensive.)
is S3 going to model some things like that? (maybe it's not a realistic race transmission, and racing gearboxes are just free of manufacturing defects / ridiculously expensive.)
you forgot: ahem
Last edited by CarlLefrancois, .
people don't want to spend the time to find out what is best! they just want to be told what is best by people with a lot of money.
well, most
hope to meet up with some of you you have some really nice combos in your list
you have some really nice combos in your listhello. from just a logic point of view, the closer your inputs get to perfect ones, the smoother and gentler they are because the closer you are to the limit, the less room there is for sudden changes without going over.
some aspects of the limit you choose with your setup. e.g. spring rate + dampers at all 4 corners + tire pressures determine the optimum speed you should apply the brakes. harder set = faster application or else you introduce a wiggle. (any wiggle or extra movement in the suspension comes out later as a force over or under the limit)
one thing that was said but bears repeating: you can drive the same line as a wr, but in reality the 2d line you follow seen from above is not all there is. we must follow a 4d line into the corner: the rear of the car coming up under braking has to eventually come back down as you turn in. the speed of braking / release / turn in sets up a pendulum swing in the angular rotations of the car, pitch and roll and yaw.
what you see when the wr car is on full throttle at early turn-in and does not understeer is the result of all the set up leading to that moment, the pendulum swinging the weight, the inertia of the car into the springs and dampers to keep give extra force down on the contact patch for the 1/x seconds needed at that point in turn-in.
of course this is all to be thought of at other times than driving... when we are like Senna and "walk" around LFS in shift-U mode at slow speed or do laps in the FZR without the gas pedal pressed...
in reality our minds are made to do this kind of complex calculation without conscious thought, like when we watch a baseball coming toward us and reach out and catch it, the calculus is done automatically.
with proper mental preparation, guide your inputs toward where you know everything in the car will be working better toward your goal, and you will find the rough edges and sand them off. the "perfect" line will feel more familiar.
sorry if this is all too zen but i hate proofs and yet this is really how to go quicker
some aspects of the limit you choose with your setup. e.g. spring rate + dampers at all 4 corners + tire pressures determine the optimum speed you should apply the brakes. harder set = faster application or else you introduce a wiggle. (any wiggle or extra movement in the suspension comes out later as a force over or under the limit)
one thing that was said but bears repeating: you can drive the same line as a wr, but in reality the 2d line you follow seen from above is not all there is. we must follow a 4d line into the corner: the rear of the car coming up under braking has to eventually come back down as you turn in. the speed of braking / release / turn in sets up a pendulum swing in the angular rotations of the car, pitch and roll and yaw.
what you see when the wr car is on full throttle at early turn-in and does not understeer is the result of all the set up leading to that moment, the pendulum swinging the weight, the inertia of the car into the springs and dampers to keep give extra force down on the contact patch for the 1/x seconds needed at that point in turn-in.
of course this is all to be thought of at other times than driving... when we are like Senna and "walk" around LFS in shift-U mode at slow speed or do laps in the FZR without the gas pedal pressed...
in reality our minds are made to do this kind of complex calculation without conscious thought, like when we watch a baseball coming toward us and reach out and catch it, the calculus is done automatically.
with proper mental preparation, guide your inputs toward where you know everything in the car will be working better toward your goal, and you will find the rough edges and sand them off. the "perfect" line will feel more familiar.
sorry if this is all too zen but i hate proofs and yet this is really how to go quicker
yes this is a very old topic! maybe even more people have had this problem.
if your G25 shifter changes gears by itself, it can probably be fixed. I have fixed mine twice so this may help someone out there.
the shifter uses a potentiometer to detect how far the stick is leaning to the left or right. it divides stick position into three zones, left, middle and right. some metal notches hold the stick into the left or right position when the stick is in gear.
the problem I had is the stick is just barely over the line to the left or right zone when the stick is in 1st/2nd or 5th/6th. the metal notches are getting some wear, so the stick goes over the line and out of the correct zone.
you can take the shifter apart, and just taking it apart and putting it back together solved the problem for me. (maybe just by re-seating the parts.. it is screwed into plastic after all.) all that is needed though is a small modification either to the metal notches or the bolt on the shifter to make the stick go further into the left or right zone and the problem will be solved.
one note about taking the shifter apart, it is tricky to get back together. do the work over an open flat surface as there is a small ball bearing that will want to drop out and roll away. you can take out the shifter zone detector without removing the sequential / H-pattern selection device which I highly recommend! (makes it harder to put the zone detector back but the pattern selector is much harder to put back together).
if your reverse gear isn't working anymore (also happened to me just lately) that can also be fixed with some soldering. at the base of the shift stick there is a small circuit board with a button that detects when you push down on the stick. the metal in the circuit board can crack so the fix is to solder a wire for each post of the button leading to the plug on the circuit board.
my shifter is now working like brand new!! never give up
i wish i would have read about this cool tool before starting on my marathon rally stage project.
can i use this tool to remove default objects already in vanilla lfs, then save and load that layout in single player?
can i use this tool to remove default objects already in vanilla lfs, then save and load that layout in single player?
ok ok you're right! 1000$ is far more than you really need to run LFS
i like to have the high res texture pack and 32x FSAA etc etc and an SSD drive to not wait for things
BUT I must disagree that the G25 / G27 is a kickass wheel! Granted there are way better wheels!!! I have never tried them but I'm not saying G27 is "the best"
but kickass?? come on, dual motors so there is like 3% spinning resistance, very decent motor strength, 3 excellent pedals. (edit: 900 degrees rotation so no hitting locks)
that's a good start to being kickass but the real reason I say that is I have driven my wheel, pedals and shifter very hard for year after year and had no problems that a quick cleaning didn't fix (gears dropping out).
stainless steel, baby!
yes, the G27 is kickass
got some OOS error with the replay.
the track seems a little claustrophobic.. and then, familiar
keep making layouts though, the more the merrier
the track seems a little claustrophobic.. and then, familiar
keep making layouts though, the more the merrier
server option for initial tire temps
we could allow servers to specify the tire temps for each car type at the start of a race.
reason: sometimes real life calls and i leave my car parked on track, then come back to find tires at track temp (20 degrees everywhere i presume).
it is quite a bit different to drive using these "cold tires" (ie _real_ cold tires) than with what you usually have at the start of an online race.
server admins could choose to enable this for extra challenge in early laps, and for the gt cars, pre-warmed tires are not a given anyway?
ps did not check if this was already suggested! bad me!:hide:
reason: sometimes real life calls and i leave my car parked on track, then come back to find tires at track temp (20 degrees everywhere i presume).
it is quite a bit different to drive using these "cold tires" (ie _real_ cold tires) than with what you usually have at the start of an online race.
server admins could choose to enable this for extra challenge in early laps, and for the gt cars, pre-warmed tires are not a given anyway?
ps did not check if this was already suggested! bad me!:hide:
you know i overhauled mine after it started dropping out while in 1st gear (e.g. at race starts lol) and shifting into 6th by itself while in 4th. just taking it apart and cleaning it made everything 100% again. (reassembly was a bit tricky)
for what it's worth...
i think the analogy that fits here is:
lifetime lfs S2 license______________________$36
kickass force feedback wheel_______________$350
computer fast enough for 100fps____________$1000
feeling a simulated car at the limit__________priceless
very very interesting article!
imo LFS has a different curve. Dustforce (the game from the link) is a variety of a platformer. sort of a rev of ninja gaiden. it's also on Steam and the target audience is likely not going to play the same game very long. all that adds up to spurts of sales in response to flashy Steam ad campaigns. again, imo.
LFS sales are likely more like Minecraft. Minecraft on one hand has a target audience of anyone with a computer, whereas LFS targets the small hardcore racer niche. Within their respective markets, though, their penetration is similar: a small start and as the word spreads about their coolness, people buy in.
It's not such a strange comparison.. think about it, you start up iRacing and there you are, given the schedule of races for the car/track you're interested in. Go sign up for a race and practice in the meantime. in LFS or Minecraft you start the sim and you're sitting there at your spawn with no fixed goal, just a simulated environment.
they do it because they can.
let's face it, we built the internet this way, designed computers this way, and that is the way it is. we have no option right now, however, like all problems this has a solution.
hackers can have their fun now, in their "golden age", but banks and news agencies and games companies will get pissed off enough to apply the pressure necessary for real change. untraceable attacks will become harder and more expensive and not worth it. routers won't be accessible without the password :rolleyes:, etc, etc.
yesterday I saw an amazing thing: LFS master server down. I did some fun hotlapping offline in my favourite sim
let's face it, we built the internet this way, designed computers this way, and that is the way it is. we have no option right now, however, like all problems this has a solution.
hackers can have their fun now, in their "golden age", but banks and news agencies and games companies will get pissed off enough to apply the pressure necessary for real change. untraceable attacks will become harder and more expensive and not worth it. routers won't be accessible without the password :rolleyes:, etc, etc.
yesterday I saw an amazing thing: LFS master server down. I did some fun hotlapping offline in my favourite sim
you have a point.
do we agree that modelling the tire to 98% of reality is already accomplished and exists for a long time? I believe your statement about race teams is talking about getting that last bit of behaviour exactly like real life.
my point is that Scawen is trying to do something completely different. he also has a tire model that already works and is much better than what S2 offers today. the problem with that model is that it takes too long to give a calculation. maybe it takes a second instead of .01 seconds.
Scawen's challenge with the tire modelling -- I'm just assuming here -- is strictly about making an approximation to the more complicated calculation that is fast enough to finish in .01 seconds but doesn't give up as much precision as the current model.
btw since you didn't respond to my last question, I take it you agree
. in my mind there is no doubt, he manages to accomplish his goal, you fire up Live For Speed S3 "just to see" 
i think what you want is for LFS devs to sell their race engine to some other company who can turn around and make another kind of game.
LFS is designed to let you race against others online, period. nothing gets in the way of that priority, and things are developed in consequence.
i know what you mean! playing any other game with wheels makes me just wish i could drive the same road with the same feel as LFS... just saying.
LFS is designed to let you race against others online, period. nothing gets in the way of that priority, and things are developed in consequence.
i know what you mean! playing any other game with wheels makes me just wish i could drive the same road with the same feel as LFS... just saying.
sorry just to clarify, this quote suggests racing teams and tyre manufacturers are investing in creating an algorithm for simulating how a tire responds under racing conditions... on a home computer. usable for publishing a video game.
did I read that right?
just theoretically assuming such a model can be made, and surpasses the current LFS model as much as it does the previous iteration... does it really, really matter how long it takes to make?
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG