just what he tried. I'm not attacking Hamilton, I'm just fed up with the Hamilton being brave and Alonso being Dangerous bias judgment on similar scenarios. Its starting on this thread even ITV had found "fair" the situation.
I also think that Hamilton whining on press about the situation it isn't fair, since he's doing the same aggressive and "brave" moves all season (which I repeat its great!!!). Look no further: Start at Monza last GP.
What do you expect? Alonso pull over and let Hamilton pass? Alonso took the same line as Massa, Hamilton should know that it is almost impossible overtake in the outside lane in a turn with 5 cars around.
its no like Hamilton has been fair on starts all season, always on the limit which I truly think its great for us, but then you cant blame others to do the same you do.
Last edited by jamvib, .
It wasnt Ron Dennis who said that Alonso has launch a threat on McLaren? The same person who has been lying all over the season around the spy affair. I think RD credibility has gone quite low last months. Even Mosley and Alonso have contradicted RD version, so I will go with Mosley and Alonso on this one.
from F1-live:
Mosley told ITV his version of events: "On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation.'
"So I said, 'What did you say Ron?' He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over.'
"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing.'
"And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information.'
"So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'
"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat.
There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.'
"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him.
"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.
"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police (showing) 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, (that I concluded) there had to be more to this.
"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers (asking for their evidence), and the rest is history."
from F1-live:
Mosley told ITV his version of events: "On the morning of the Hungarian Grand Prix, Ron rang me and he said, 'I've just had Alonso in the motorhome and he says he's got information and he's threatening to give it to the Federation.'
"So I said, 'What did you say Ron?' He said, 'I said, go on and hand it over.'
"I said, 'Ron, you said exactly the right thing.'
"And then Ron said, 'But there isn't any information.'
"So I said, 'So it's an empty threat?'
"And he replied: 'Yes, a completely empty threat.
There's no information, there's nothing to come out; I can assure you that if there was something, Max, I would have told you.'
"Now this was a week after looking me in the eye in the World Council and telling me there was absolutely nothing wrong and everybody had done exactly as they should do, so I believed him.
"I've known Ron for 40 years; it's very difficult for me, when somebody I've known for 40 years looks me in the eye and says, 'Max, I'm telling the truth with complete sincerity' - you believe him.
"It was only when I got the list from the Italian police (showing) 323 SMS phone calls going over a three-month period between Coughlan and Stepney, (that I concluded) there had to be more to this.
"You don't get 300 messages arranging a visit to Honda. This is something serious. At which point, I sat down and wrote the letter to the drivers (asking for their evidence), and the rest is history."
that is funny, Hamilton has no ears or eyes...
He decide to be quiet when asked for evidences. In fact the FIA counsel to punish him along with McLaren.
"8.14 Having indicated to McLaren that a penalty was likely to be imposed, the WMSC heard submissions regarding the appropriateness of penalties from McLaren and from counsel for Mr. Hamilton. The WMSC has reached its decision having taken due account of those submissions"
I have a question. Can McLaren be legally third on the Constructors championship?
Doing the maths it would still be possible (Renault 38 points) and four GPs to go...
Doing the maths it would still be possible (Renault 38 points) and four GPs to go...
In Hungary Alonso’s car was behind BMW thanks to a FIA decision, not Alonso lack of pace.
In Istanbul it was a tyre bad choice as Alonso recognised as his own mistake after Q3 was over. Alonso was quicker with the option tyre on the first attempt.
Kimi had also a mistake on last attempt; still he managed to past Hamilton at the beginning and set the fastest lap at the very end. Even so he was unable to pass Massa.
I don’t know what you mean by "trouble free", is there any moment when driving a F1 catalogued as "trouble free", maybe when the 'safety car mode' is set on the mappings...
What you mean? Before or after passing the BMW's?
On fourth position Alonso was in fact 0.3s quicker per lap than Hamilton at first, after a while Hamilton and Alonso were on the same pace. As everybody saw his first stint was spoiled by BMW's aggressive tactics.
Kimi said something we already know: overtake with these cars is a hard task. Alonso suffered that on Indianapolis and a couple of times this year following Heifield.
Limiting rpm to 19k took away reability problems, reducing from 100kmh to 80kmh on the pit lane stops people trying new things, for instance 3 stops when everybody goes to 2, etc. I think the one set of tyres was a stupid idea, being removed after one year confirms my opinion.
Are you looking for this ?
http://www.expirences.co.uk/product/0000000730.html
or
http://www.virginexperienceday ... f1-racing-car,160,PG.html
I think Hamilton and Alonso have the same amount of fuel as always.
Alonso got it wrong using hard tyres on the last attempt. I think Kimi made a mistake or something...
Only Massa and Hamilton were regular on the "who's the faster driver under stupid constraints' known as Q3
Mongol Rally 2007
Today I heard about The Mongol Rally, it looks like a funny and challenging project. Money raised is for charities.
Maybe one year...
Have you actually know somebody doing this?
From the web: "Some teams were still fixing their cars on the start line, some had breakdowns on the way to the start, but thousands watched them all successfully splutter out into central London."
It looks to me like a Pick-Up Race launched in BlackWood, at least after T1..
...just joking.
Maybe one year...
Have you actually know somebody doing this?
From the web: "Some teams were still fixing their cars on the start line, some had breakdowns on the way to the start, but thousands watched them all successfully splutter out into central London."
It looks to me like a Pick-Up Race launched in BlackWood, at least after T1..
...just joking.
No, its true!
The "did you notice..." part was more a personal post-race review, not a direct answer to your post. Sorry about the missunderstanding.
Do you really believe that was an Alonso's plot? Even when RD has said that Alonso’s car cross the line with less than a second to go? What a superb brain Alonso must have to calculate all the times mentally while sitting on the car. What is more, at that moment he was still second and had to go out and pull a 'pole' lap...
Source
RD:" "But clearly - even as was apparent by the fact that Fernando only crossed the start-line with less than a second to go and Lewis failed to do so - it was clearly not part of our plan nor consistent with the discussions that we'd had in the previous 24 hours.""
Did you notice that barely McLaren people were at the podium celebrations, all the mechanics where at the garage?
Did you notice also Hamilton didn’t answer the team radio message from the team to congratulate him after wining the race?
Seriously, it’s just me seeing a divorce between McLaren and Hamilton about this issue?
In my company, if I do what I want, disobeying work plans, previous meetings,etc... They will manage the situation in a professional way: a promotion at best to gardener assistant...
They stick to the original plan to minimise the improvisation, that is what professional people do. Mostly because they knew Ferrari and BMW were still behind both McLaren drivers.
Last edited by jamvib, .
Alonso Made Scapegoat for McLaren’s Failed Orchestration of the Front RowBy Mike Sulka (source)
Did McLaren screw up?
Or was it an incredibly sophisticated and deliberate attempt by Alonso to block a faster teammate from defending his provisional Pole position ?
Either way, put aside the Ferrari vs. McLaren spy scandal shenanigans, and let’s return to the Alonso vs. Hamilton intra-team fight for the right to win the Formula One World Championship.
Over the last two weeks, Ron Dennis’ favored son Lewis Hamilton has seen his grip on the F1 driver’s title slip to a mere two points over Alonso. In Q3 of qualifying, McLaren seemed intent on putting Hamilton on Pole by having Alonso qualify on the ‘prime’ – soft – tire while Hamilton was turning his hot laps on the ‘option’ – super soft – tire with nearly three tenths in hand.
It should have been an easy Pole for Hamilton, but it didn’t happen.
Instead, two-time Formula One Driver Champion Fernando Alonso took his 17th career Formula One Pole during qualifying for the Hungarian Grand Prix at the Hungaroring.
Immediately following the demise of the team’s planned orchestration of the front row, Ron Dennis slammed his headphones down, and stormed off to Parc Ferme to confront his Spanish driver. When challenged, Alonso refused to listen, and walked away from his McLaren Boss who continued to sputter at him.
But Dennis’ scapegoat wasn’t the real problem today. The facts don’t back him up.
Though o*nlookers were quick to trash Alonso, and ridicule him for deliberately holding up Hamilton…. The facts don’t back them up.
One has to look at the specific timelines to declare guilt. Much as o*ne has to hear all the evidence in a spy scandal case, rather than force an important decision with something less than all the important facts.
As mentioned above, it was clear that McLaren had chosen Hamilton to lead from Pole based o*n the two different strategies. It is also logical that Alonso was o*n a heavier fuel load than Hamilton since he is o*n the harder tire.
The truth is that Alonso was not going to be given a chance to start the Hungarian Grand Prix from Pole.
It can also be said that McLaren cost Alonso a lap of fuel. Was that intentional ? Was that what the team wanted to insure a Hamilton victory for tomorrow’s race ?
Let’s consider these questions while we look at the facts.
On Alonso’s second to last pitstop in the Q3 qualifying session, McLaren held Alonso for a full 47 seconds (From 7:40 to 6:53). Apparently to allow for traffic to clear, meanwhile Hamilton was allowed to burn fuel during the time that the Spaniard sat idle.
The team then bungled his release when a tire warmer became stuck o*n the suspension. The mistake cost Alonso another full eight seconds.
Alonso completed his out lap, his hot lap and then returned to the pits. The car was jacked up, and Alonso’s tread was replaced for his final run at Pole. At the 2:08 mark, Alonso was dropped off the jacks and ready to return to the track. But the team held him again…
This time for another 19 critical seconds…
Again apparently for clear track.
At the 1:51 mark, Hamilton arrived in full view behind Alonso.
At the 1:47 mark, the McLaren mechanic lifts the lolli-pop. Usually a sign that the team wants the driver to leave the pit stall.
What isn’t clear is if Alonso is actually released by the team. Unlike the previous stop, the mechanic in charge of releasing him can’t be seen counting down the release.
During this crucial nine seconds, some speculate that Alonso deliberately held his teammate to cost him Hamilton his run at Pole.
At the 1:38 second mark, Alonso drives away and finds clear track.
At the 1:26 second mark, Hamilton’s service is complete, and he is away for his doomed final lap.
But here is the key point to this presentation of the facts. And Ron Dennis should note this before he scolds his star driver because his favorite son isn’t o*n Pole.
Alonso began his lap with just three seconds left in the qualifying session. It took him 1:35 to get around the track from the time he left his pit stall.
Even if Alonso had gotten away when the loli-pop went up, Hamilton would have had just 1:35 to get around the track.
While the nine seconds was crucial… It was the McLaren team who kept Alonso for the extra 19 seconds before hand to create the situation. It was the McLaren team who kept Alonso a full 47 seconds the previous pitstop and allowed their drivers to get so close to each other.
The truth is o*ne of the following:
McLaren were too smart by half
Or Alonso is the smartest driver in the world, and had this all calculated out in the cockpit of his car.
Alonso said of the incident, "I leave the pits when I'm told to."
And that makes the most sense.
If Ron Dennis is angry and upset, he o*nly has his own team to whine at for wasting the precious seconds that left Hamilton second. If Ron Dennis is angry and upset, it clearly wasn’t his driver who created the situation.
If Ron Dennis is angry and upset that McLaren’s intended orchestration of the front row didn’t happen as planned, he o*nly has o*ne place to point the finger…
At his team. Not his driver.
Even so, the o*ne who ought to be furious is Fernando Alonso.
While Alonso will start from Pole o*n a track where it is extremely difficult to make a pass, the team cost him a full lap of fuel by forcing him to sit idle in his pit stall.
They wasted 55 seconds o*n the second to last stop, plus 19 seconds o*n his final stop, plus the nine questionable seconds. That works out to 1:23 or o*ne full lap.
Tomorrow, that lost lap could be very costly for Alonso. That is..
If McLaren allows him to win. Because if he does, he’ll overtake the team’s favored o*ne in the Formula o*ne points standings.
Will Ron Dennis allow that to happen ?
Or was it an incredibly sophisticated and deliberate attempt by Alonso to block a faster teammate from defending his provisional Pole position ?
Either way, put aside the Ferrari vs. McLaren spy scandal shenanigans, and let’s return to the Alonso vs. Hamilton intra-team fight for the right to win the Formula One World Championship.
Over the last two weeks, Ron Dennis’ favored son Lewis Hamilton has seen his grip on the F1 driver’s title slip to a mere two points over Alonso. In Q3 of qualifying, McLaren seemed intent on putting Hamilton on Pole by having Alonso qualify on the ‘prime’ – soft – tire while Hamilton was turning his hot laps on the ‘option’ – super soft – tire with nearly three tenths in hand.
It should have been an easy Pole for Hamilton, but it didn’t happen.
Instead, two-time Formula One Driver Champion Fernando Alonso took his 17th career Formula One Pole during qualifying for the Hungarian Grand Prix at the Hungaroring.
Immediately following the demise of the team’s planned orchestration of the front row, Ron Dennis slammed his headphones down, and stormed off to Parc Ferme to confront his Spanish driver. When challenged, Alonso refused to listen, and walked away from his McLaren Boss who continued to sputter at him.
But Dennis’ scapegoat wasn’t the real problem today. The facts don’t back him up.
Though o*nlookers were quick to trash Alonso, and ridicule him for deliberately holding up Hamilton…. The facts don’t back them up.
One has to look at the specific timelines to declare guilt. Much as o*ne has to hear all the evidence in a spy scandal case, rather than force an important decision with something less than all the important facts.
As mentioned above, it was clear that McLaren had chosen Hamilton to lead from Pole based o*n the two different strategies. It is also logical that Alonso was o*n a heavier fuel load than Hamilton since he is o*n the harder tire.
The truth is that Alonso was not going to be given a chance to start the Hungarian Grand Prix from Pole.
It can also be said that McLaren cost Alonso a lap of fuel. Was that intentional ? Was that what the team wanted to insure a Hamilton victory for tomorrow’s race ?
Let’s consider these questions while we look at the facts.
On Alonso’s second to last pitstop in the Q3 qualifying session, McLaren held Alonso for a full 47 seconds (From 7:40 to 6:53). Apparently to allow for traffic to clear, meanwhile Hamilton was allowed to burn fuel during the time that the Spaniard sat idle.
The team then bungled his release when a tire warmer became stuck o*n the suspension. The mistake cost Alonso another full eight seconds.
Alonso completed his out lap, his hot lap and then returned to the pits. The car was jacked up, and Alonso’s tread was replaced for his final run at Pole. At the 2:08 mark, Alonso was dropped off the jacks and ready to return to the track. But the team held him again…
This time for another 19 critical seconds…
Again apparently for clear track.
At the 1:51 mark, Hamilton arrived in full view behind Alonso.
At the 1:47 mark, the McLaren mechanic lifts the lolli-pop. Usually a sign that the team wants the driver to leave the pit stall.
What isn’t clear is if Alonso is actually released by the team. Unlike the previous stop, the mechanic in charge of releasing him can’t be seen counting down the release.
During this crucial nine seconds, some speculate that Alonso deliberately held his teammate to cost him Hamilton his run at Pole.
At the 1:38 second mark, Alonso drives away and finds clear track.
At the 1:26 second mark, Hamilton’s service is complete, and he is away for his doomed final lap.
But here is the key point to this presentation of the facts. And Ron Dennis should note this before he scolds his star driver because his favorite son isn’t o*n Pole.
Alonso began his lap with just three seconds left in the qualifying session. It took him 1:35 to get around the track from the time he left his pit stall.
Even if Alonso had gotten away when the loli-pop went up, Hamilton would have had just 1:35 to get around the track.
While the nine seconds was crucial… It was the McLaren team who kept Alonso for the extra 19 seconds before hand to create the situation. It was the McLaren team who kept Alonso a full 47 seconds the previous pitstop and allowed their drivers to get so close to each other.
The truth is o*ne of the following:
McLaren were too smart by half
Or Alonso is the smartest driver in the world, and had this all calculated out in the cockpit of his car.
Alonso said of the incident, "I leave the pits when I'm told to."
And that makes the most sense.
If Ron Dennis is angry and upset, he o*nly has his own team to whine at for wasting the precious seconds that left Hamilton second. If Ron Dennis is angry and upset, it clearly wasn’t his driver who created the situation.
If Ron Dennis is angry and upset that McLaren’s intended orchestration of the front row didn’t happen as planned, he o*nly has o*ne place to point the finger…
At his team. Not his driver.
Even so, the o*ne who ought to be furious is Fernando Alonso.
While Alonso will start from Pole o*n a track where it is extremely difficult to make a pass, the team cost him a full lap of fuel by forcing him to sit idle in his pit stall.
They wasted 55 seconds o*n the second to last stop, plus 19 seconds o*n his final stop, plus the nine questionable seconds. That works out to 1:23 or o*ne full lap.
Tomorrow, that lost lap could be very costly for Alonso. That is..
If McLaren allows him to win. Because if he does, he’ll overtake the team’s favored o*ne in the Formula o*ne points standings.
Will Ron Dennis allow that to happen ?
Last edited by jamvib, .
From Guardian.co.uk
'Rumours suggested Alonso was behind held by his personal physio Fabrizio Borra, who was counting off the seconds to the Spaniard with his fingers, so making sure Hamilton would not have enough time for one more lap. That is apparently under discussion within the team, whom Hamilton is fairly confident would not unduly harm his chances after what unfolded in Monaco.'
That would explain why RD was with him at the end of the Qualy
Alonso, meanwhile, brushed aside his own questions after claiming his second pole of the season, and 17th of his career. "In the first and second stops, normally we have someone timing the gaps," said the reigning double world champion. "The first time they told me to go, but I had the blanket caught in the tyres, so I lost some time there. The second time we didn't lose anything. You can ask the team what happened. I am always monitoring the pit stops, the radio. They do the calculations, they find the gaps and I just drive the car. I'm always ready to go."
Nothing new
'Rumours suggested Alonso was behind held by his personal physio Fabrizio Borra, who was counting off the seconds to the Spaniard with his fingers, so making sure Hamilton would not have enough time for one more lap. That is apparently under discussion within the team, whom Hamilton is fairly confident would not unduly harm his chances after what unfolded in Monaco.'
That would explain why RD was with him at the end of the Qualy
Alonso, meanwhile, brushed aside his own questions after claiming his second pole of the season, and 17th of his career. "In the first and second stops, normally we have someone timing the gaps," said the reigning double world champion. "The first time they told me to go, but I had the blanket caught in the tyres, so I lost some time there. The second time we didn't lose anything. You can ask the team what happened. I am always monitoring the pit stops, the radio. They do the calculations, they find the gaps and I just drive the car. I'm always ready to go."
Nothing new
is that supposed to be an insult or just your appreciation/judgment/opinion?
yeah teams arent so stupid...Thats why Massa miss Q3, because the team actully know how to add fuel loads, but they forget put the fuel on...
Guys Engineers are humans not robots...Stop judging without proofs, just because what you watched on ITV.
Guys Engineers are humans not robots...Stop judging without proofs, just because what you watched on ITV.
He didnt go either on First Lap Attempt, he waited a sign from the McLaren Engineers Wall , in fact you can see how he looks at the Wall several times. The lollipop in Qually is just to indicate a free pit lane to go.
Im not defending Alonsos move, but I understand that was a Team's Mistake, Alonso was around 5 seconds waiting and Hamilton miss the light for more than 10 seconds.
Hamilton went around 17 laps the same as Alonso and Everyone, just Kimi was 18 laps. It was a mistake to extend an extra lap to attemp to gain fuel advantage, when They knew Alonso would be pitting at that moment.
Now it seems as Alonso's dirty trick. I'll wait to see how the afternoon goes...
With Spanish Subtitles
http://f1.informativos.telecinco.es/f1_1135.htm
I'll post a translated transcript tomorrow
http://f1.informativos.telecinco.es/f1_1135.htm
I'll post a translated transcript tomorrow
How curious LH and FA having totally different driving styles and still from Autosport Hamilton reckons his errors(at least the guy is honest) .
Hamilton's nervous response regarding the Pit Stop was a rookie mistake and worse on my opinion. Thank God for Dennis (and the mechanics) that Albers wasn’t driving the car.
a British guy says from an unbiased point of view...
again the same story, another unbiased British guy saying how good the Britons are...lets put an probably invented crappy example about Spaniards.
Are you sure Federer is not British? In your book he must be.
Its true that we lost the close finishes that we used to have a years ago. Clearly Kimi and Alonso started to think in the next GP and not to push hard to avoid potential failures...
I think they were lapping around 1 sec slower than normal during the last 10 laps, somebody can check this?
I think its very naive to compare a F1 SIMULATOR with a Game, even it that game is as superb as LFS is. Money and resources put into these projects are nothing compared with game developing.
In a simulator there are more things than just the software, most of the Automotive Research centers use the same Carsim software.
In F1 teams simulators are very useful to test new devices using for example HIL Simulations
If you want to know what a simulator is look at this project developing a static simulator which has cost around a million pounds, dynamic simulators used to train pilots by British Airways cost five times more.
I may be wrong, but I think the key point is able to differentiate between professional and amateur. Unfortunately our G25-HOMEPC-LFS simulator is still an amateur simulator, but its as good as we can get without spending a fortune.
McLaren's is for sure a Professional simulator, having all the data available from the MP4/22 and all the system models its not difficult to produce a system (call it software simulator) producing the same output as the real thing. In fact this is a compulsory stage inside the design procedure to save time and money.
In a simulator there are more things than just the software, most of the Automotive Research centers use the same Carsim software.
In F1 teams simulators are very useful to test new devices using for example HIL Simulations
If you want to know what a simulator is look at this project developing a static simulator which has cost around a million pounds, dynamic simulators used to train pilots by British Airways cost five times more.
I may be wrong, but I think the key point is able to differentiate between professional and amateur. Unfortunately our G25-HOMEPC-LFS simulator is still an amateur simulator, but its as good as we can get without spending a fortune.
McLaren's is for sure a Professional simulator, having all the data available from the MP4/22 and all the system models its not difficult to produce a system (call it software simulator) producing the same output as the real thing. In fact this is a compulsory stage inside the design procedure to save time and money.
Last edited by jamvib, .
yeah, well... An incompatible patch should be coming pretty soon because Devs are running out of letters.
A nice alternative would be to add an update to the "test patch name system" to allow further development on S2. I’m pretty happy with the development stage, with S3 Final being released lots of people would lose interest and asking for modding.
On-Topic: isn't Y after X on the vocabulary?? then should be a more than possible patch Y on the way...
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG