#50 Hellenic Racing Team
GT2 XRR

CBR929, George Alamaras, Greece
scoupegt, Babis Chalaris, Greece
Varwnos, Andy Perrs, Greece
kalabas, Vagelis Kalabalikis , Greece
kaynd, Kritolaos Daskalopoulos, Greece

#50 Hellenic Racing team GT2 (updated)

GT2 qualify starts in a few minutes and I still don’t have any pass for the server.
I hope I am not missing something.

ok fixed (I am dump, it didn't even pass my mind I allready knew it)

thanks boothy

Last edited by kaynd, Sun 28 Nov 2010, 19:45.

rfactor is pretty good if you feed it with the right data.


At that point, current LFS tire model is useless for testing settings that could work in real cars. And everyone who has tried to make a setup in LFS, knowing what he is doing and not randomly changing values by feel, can confirm that.

Amagad he is mad at you guys
Hold your horses captain obvious. People are always going to complain about that kind of stuff… hell even I am tempted to start complaining about the slow progress.
Let the people troll. its fun

I had a similar question in mind but didn’t bother to ask. Well it isn't that obvius... the only thing you see is an FZR with 1069kg without handicaps (modified exe).

I find it strange that all GTR cars share the same CoG weight value in the game's code.
Thanks for the explanation.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Important cars to test:
GT1 XRR
GT2 FZR
GT1-3 FXR if anyone plans on running it.

Where is TDRT when you need them for some FXR testing


I am sharing the GT0 FXR and XRR test settings I made for my team in case someone wants to try and doesn't have anything to start with.
I think they are pretty easy to drive. (I know, R4 for the back tires of XRR are not realy that effective in the long run. But they are quite forgiving in small drifts)

Intresting results.
The boothy chicane favors GT0 FXR a lot, since GT0 rwd cars struggle to put power down in tight corners.
XRR will have to sacrifice some of its straight speed in order to get more stable. Right now it can’t thansfer it's power to the road efficiently. On the other hand, even with 17F 13R wings it reaches 280km/h easily so I think with a bit more setup development it will be quite competitive with FZR. If only it didn’t get stuck to the sand traps so easily.:ouch: Still, FXR lacks absolute speed in both straights and corners, but it’s more controllable in certain situations and in this class, this plays a major role.

For GT2 and GT3 classes, traction is more than enough for all cars. XRR and FZR seem to be nicely balanced here. As for FXR.. business as usual.
but hey 1sec slower per lap isn’t that bad. If someone makes no mistakes,driving the FXR, he stands a chance to finish someware midfield.

Actually it wasn’t as bad as I expected to be. (In terms of class balance)
But not many really tried for their best, or had a proper setup, so I believe that things might change when true competition “kicks in”.

Last edited by kaynd, Sat 23 Oct 2010, 23:12.

If I get this right. Partly, you are aiming to balance the classes slightly. If that’s the case then the test race track (ky3) is will not provide so obvious results. It’s completely normal for FXR, or generally an AWD car with front biased weight distribution, to be slower than the other two on tracks with high speed corners and long straights. The obvious advantage of a car like this is low speed corner exit traction. That is usable on tracks with many tight corners followed by short straights or other mid speed corners. If all three cars got equal on a track like ky3 then the FXR would be much faster on tighter tracks.

There is another side of that though.
The fact of the matter that FXR would anyway be slower on fast tracks doesn’t mean that there is nothing that should be done to improve its chances just a bit. (If possible)
There are many factors that make FXR slower and as speed increases it gets less and less competitive with the other two cars.

First of all, regardless downforce and tire pressures, transmission efficiency makes FXR to lose a lot of acceleration and absolute speed above ~200km/h.
In normal GTR mode (490hp) it’s already losing about 5 km/h of top speed comparing with the other two in ky3. And this not just 5km/h above 260. The rate of acceleration through the whole straight is significantly lower.

The front biased weight distribution is also making things even worse because you have to adjust downforce in proportion to the weight of each end of the car.
For almost the same total downforce, the FXR has a lot more drag comparing with XFR and FZR.

eg for 40m/sec test speed and typical downforce values for a track like Ky3 we get.
FZR 10deg Front, 15deg Rear , 2806N total downforce, 956N drag
XRR 15deg Front, 11deg Rear, 2788N total downforce, 949N drag
FXR 20deg Front, 8deg Rear, 2793N total downforce 979N drag

All three cars have the same simplified aero model. Eg. 1deg on the front wing of FZR produces the same amount of downforce as in XRR or FXR front wind. The increase in drag is not linear in proportion with wing angle increase. Also the front wing causes more drag comparing with the downforce it offers.

In short, the front wing is less efficient than the rear. And because FXR has more weight to the front than the other two, it needs to use more that less-efficient front wing, hence the increased drag.

Also that front weight bias plays obviously a huge role in tire management. FZR has tire widths in proportion of its weight distribution.
XRR and FXR on the other hand have identical tire width in front and rear. (Actually XRR has a bit higher rim diameter in front and lower profile tires. This gives an advantage in tire management because less negative camber is needed)
Same tire width on all tires might be ok for XRR weight distribution, (with some fuel added it gets to 50:50) but not so for the FXR.
This would be not that a big of a problem, if the tire model handled the load sensitivity a bit better, and we could actually distribute a bit the traction between the front and rear axles using suspension stiffness. Now suspension tuning is only good enough for handling some bumps and loading the hell out or the tire which needs more traction.
So there you have a great disadvantage in cornering that combines perfectly with the down force “issue”.

In short, current FXR sucks in many ways. It sucks so much that it doesn’t have any advantage. Not even in the tightest track of LFS where AWD should definitely have an advantage.

Could we make it suck a bit less, so it’s existence in the race has actually a meaning?

I don’t know exactly what modifications you did to the modified lfs.exe in order to alter power oughtput or what else you could do. I guess that both XFR and XRR use the same engine so it’s not possible to change independently the power curve characteristics. An alteration in weight and/or power through the default handicap system might be helpful.


Right now I think that XRR has the advantage overall.
All in all I did some tests with the GT0 FXR and even I was surprised by the speed difference between this and the XRR.
With the downforce settings I mentioned earlier in both cars, XRR got me 285km/h top speed just before the T1 break zone while with FXR I struggled to get above 275km/h.

Of course lap times are not only a matter of top speed on the main straight but, as I mentioned earlier, things aren’t any better in corners either.
We are not talking about a small speed difference here. This is another class.



[edit]

Quote from Commander :

Could somebody provide me with a usable setup? XRR GT1 preferred. I guess it won't make any sense to participate without having a suitable setup, but since I don't have the time to develop a setup on my own this would be very kind

I am not ignoring your post, I just don't think that I have anything worth sharing (not enough time for setup development here either) and I really don't think you want to drive FXR.

Last edited by kaynd, Thu 21 Oct 2010, 16:01.

I am not complaining about the race in general. I am arguing with another racer about racing logic. It’s a completely different thing.
I am not expecting anything to happen here. I am just trying to make a point

Quote from manneF1 :

tbh, only thing what "bothers me" is that you cant admit, that you made a mistake there. There was big gap between you and me before left hander.

And you choose to stay right behind me despite that gap. You had enough time and space to slip by my left side.

Quote from manneF1 :

I was gonna going to wait to you go throught it,

My maximum cornering speed through that corner is 160km/h, yours is at least 185. How on earth this could work? You were going full throttle till the very last second. Is it necessary to trace your ideal racing line when you are about to slow down that much because of the much slower moving obstacle in front of you? I just see a driver ignoring completely what is in front of him, doing hotlap runs.

Quote from manneF1 :

then you desided to go to right for no reason, what made me thourght that I could get a clean line throught it when it "looked" that you were giving me a way. Then you didint, you would smash the wall whitout my touch, shame that it ended that way.

I was already to the right... I decided to go even further to the right a second before you hit me. In my copkit you can see my wheel turning to the right and then to the left. I thought that it's obvious that I am not on rails... I was afraid that understeer will send me straight through the grass and I did what I could to avoid an exit. I was trying to make you space. And you had more than enough to make a clean and fast pass. But obviously you didn't care.

You can’t predict that this move leads to a certain crash, no matter what I do…
(1sec and 180milisec between the two shots.)
http://img85.imageshack.us/f/2abr.jpg/
but somehow you can predict that I would crash to the wall by my own… Guess what… there was a reason for my relatively low speed there and I would have gone through that turn just fine even with a late corner entry, if you had chosen a line that didn’t pass over me.



But let’s not narrow it down to my incident only… if it was only this, I probably wouldn't care.

What's your explanation on the scenes I added to my previous post when you took out your team's nGT because you had no intention to lift off the throttle to the slightest?

What about this?
http://img810.imageshack.us/f/20634864.jpg/
http://img132.imageshack.us/f/76760183.jpg/
http://img163.imageshack.us/f/37206595.jpg/


this is even more profound.
http://img264.imageshack.us/f/24926146.jpg/
and closer
http://img691.imageshack.us/f/64192605.jpg/
even closer and still full throttle
http://img28.imageshack.us/f/71771254.jpg/
woops
http://img297.imageshack.us/f/85204224.jpg/

and the reason I made my first rant post about you here.
8 minutes before the race finish
http://img709.imageshack.us/f/resultex.jpg/



You should learn something from your teammates.
V.Lombardi and N.Puntola didn’t cause any incident and almost never came close to.

Even if you think that everyone else is wrong and you are right, that doesn’t give you any right to knock them out of your way.
Mistakes do happen. but thinking this is what you should do... that’s my problem.

Anyway, I rest my case. I caused enough destruction to this thread.

Last edited by kaynd, Tue 19 Oct 2010, 01:26.

Quote from manneF1 :

That picture shows that I had brakes on, but your violent braking didint let me nothing else to do that brake and turn. Allthrought that wasnt enough and I clipped your left rear a bit, shame that cause you to crash.

This is my violent braking… half of the braking force. My only mistake here is that I brake too early. I misjudged your position and I thought that you could have passed me earlier in the corner entry. Allso, if you pay any attention to the braking lights… I am giving you enough time to choose a line with no obstacles like me in your way.
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/757/39781660.png


Instead you choose to stay right behind me. Even if my take is wrong… what do you expect to happen here? FXR’s cornering speed is by far faster here… one way or another, one thing is certain… you were aiming to pass trough me. (tip: check the brake lights)
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/3190/16835074.png


At that point your decision is already taken… of course there is nothing more you can do… heavy braking will cause you to understeer facing the wall.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5221/23040168.png

While I am sensing disaster and I almost let off the brake while trying to shift the car to the outside.
http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1170/40818903.png



[edit]
Just another example of what I am talking about.
You didn’t bother to sacrifice even 1 km/h of your speed through that chicane to avoid hitting your own team nGT. (Pedal to the metal all the way)
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/5135/64876548.png
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8935/27358133.png




And there are many more incidents through the 16hour race… I will be surprised if I am the only one who got bothered by your behavior.

Again. It’s not just about one incident. It’s the whole attitude that bothers me. As you can see on the following laps of that very stint you threw me out, I had no intention to block, and I did anything in my power to avoid any car, including yours. (if you ever bother to check the replay)

Last edited by kaynd, Sun 17 Oct 2010, 18:18.

I want to say that even though we had some problems; most of the drivers on all classes were very clean, trying to avoid contact. This was a really difficult combination of cars and track, especially for a three class race. It’s impossible to not have contacts on a track with so many tight corners and narrow parts.

Quote from GreyBull [CHA] :

congrats admins for keeping alive a classic LFS race, probably one of the most intense and challenging of its kind. I sincerly hope you will have time and interrest to carry on for 2011 and beyond, and I hope the concept will regain some interrest after we went to only 2 servers this year.

Quote from manneF1 :

No, I dont except it to dissapear, but you have to understand, you cant keep you line and try to fight whit me.

I wasn't driving on the last stint’s incident.

I was driving on the first stint though.
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/7071/35175537.png Tel me in which way I tried to block you here. I was as far to the outside of the corner as possible and kept moving forward missing completely any corner entry in order to give you enough room.
You didn't move to the slightest for a tighter line.


This has already been discussed

Quote from commandermas :

Quote from jasonmatthews :

Of course the NGT's should move over if possible, but I would think that it is the responsibility of the passing car to not even attempt it in the chicane's or corners.

that is what my quote should have meant. In the first year we had NGTs that totally sticked to their line and the faster cars had their problems to lap them

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1499838#post1499838

Last edited by kaynd, Sun 17 Oct 2010, 08:34.

You were continuously ignoring any car that was in your ideal line trough any corner of this track.

Quote from manneF1 :

Eh, tell me what I did wrong

If you´re the driver of that XFR, you need to look at the mirror. You cant try to block me.

This is a Joke...

You expect the car in front of you to just disappear.

200 - O. Rinne realy??? From the first laps till the very end of the race your behavior is unacceptable. It's not just one incident.

If this driver gets no penalty, then the whole protest process is a Joke.

Quote from Seb66 :

Also, car 212.. You've twatted us (GT2 race leader) twice now and caused us big damage. I realise your end stint, but its hardly fair to squeeze us into a wall at 200kph while we have the inside to the corner. Are you really that desperate to catch 11th that you don't mind taking out the leader?

I am not racing the FX2 in this race but I apologize if we caused you trouble. Unfortunately our driver forgot to save the replay of that stint so I don't know exactly what happened.
We had many miss-ups in this race ether from pure bad lack or because of some other drivers aggressive driving. Frustration is what drives us now… and that’s the main cause for some of our bad moves.

Quote from Timo1992 :

Mhh it's hellenic racing team...so I'd say they had a few Ouzo before the race....might have been too much

Funny stereotype. In that case, some other drivers must be doing drugs.

Quote from commandermas :

Quote from jasonmatthews :

Of course the NGT's should move over if possible, but I would think that it is the responsibility of the passing car to not even attempt it in the chicane's or corners.

that is what my quote should have meant. In the first year we had NGTs that totally sticked to their line and the faster cars had their problems to lap them

Thanks for the clarification

3.3.4 Blue Flags have to be respected immediately after the first showing.
The only refferense I found on this was this aswer.

Quote from commandermas :

They have to be respected. The driver who wants to pass should not have a problem while passing, like we had it in the first year, where NGTs sticked to there line when GT1s tried to overtake.

I agree that blue flags should be respected, but is the driver in a slower car class expected to disappear from the track as soon as a car from a faster class approaches?

It's not that easy to give immediately way especially trough the turn complexes, driving LFS FWD cars... when you get only understeer while letting off the throttle. Not many lines to choose from.
You have to make a really slow corner entry in order to choose a line that doesn’t disturb a faster car through the corner. And this might be even more dangerous for the approaching car if that slowdown is not expected.

Especially between the GT2 and the NGT class there is not much high speed difference on the straights... but there is a huge difference in cornering speed… So lapping will happen mainly through the corners. This is going to be nerve wrecking

A more detailed opinion on that by the organizers would be nice.

Quote from N I K I :

biggie and old blackwood, that's first that comes to my mind. Oh and XRT in demo, we used to have awesome races with demo guys.

That. And generally the aliens (and the competition) of the 2006-2007 era... those guys where unbelievably fast...
Compared to them, there are no more aliens in LFS now.

Quote from obsolum :

That's been suggested time and time again, and Scawen has stated time and time again that that is simply not going to happen

indeed

e.g
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=1095731#post1095731

Quote from Scawen :

And by the way we don't "need" to employ more staff so we can release more stuff and make more money. As most people know, the reason for the existence of LFS is because we decided to leave a game company and work in a completely different way. We have seen before and don't wish for the responsibility of employees and running a company, with all that would bring and the inevitable consequences of turning LFS into a full-blown commercial product where money would become the most important thing. There is no problem here, LFS development simply continues, it takes a while but gradually gets better over time, and that's fine! We are quite happy with it!

Cheating on line isn't that easy. LFS tweak works mainly off line and sometimes on line if all racers and the host have the same tweakd files.
It isn't possible to use lfstweak just for cheating.

It's not that easy to hack lfs, and usualy as soon as something like speedhack gets out, a quick patch comes to fill the hole.

If he has a D series engine, and concidering the low value of that car, he can use the same bolts and any kind of torque wrench Honda workshop manual gives only tightening order and torque.

It's a pretty safe setup... nothing is really stressed. The only thing that can go wrong now has to do with the possibility of a "bent" cylinder head or block due to overheating in the past. This might prevent the new flange from sealing.

Quote from traxxion :

Not sure if I understand what you mean, but surely purpose-built race cars have such stiff suspension, they are actually much more vulnerable to those speed bumps, compared to road cars?

Yes the stiff suspention makes things worse but purpose built racecars have a lot stronger/rigid chasis and suspention components.

Quote from traxxion :

you can use the green area for emergency run off, but those "sleeping policemen" force you to brake so hard, that you actually lose time by doing it.

That would be ideal. But I guess its difficult to have different friction constants for each sufrace in LFS track modeling engine. (Or it's just that current development progress rythm doesn't leave any room for this :ouch