Lewis on Schumacher St Devote - Wow!

Seb might just burn his tyres scampering off like that. Button playing a canny tortoise game.

Looks like the grid slot is going to be taken up, so Hamilton is 9th.

I know the McLaren team read LFSF, so a quick reminder to take the plugs out before going to the grid

Quote from MadCatX :

Or the KERS? I imagine the batteries contain a lot of toxic chemical compounds and at least the electrolyte is probably changed every race weekend.

The batteries are Lithium Ion High Voltage Batteries (HVB)
http://green.autoblog.com/2011 ... l-li-ion-batteries-video/
Recent studies show Li-Ion to have low impact on the environment.
http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles ... -environmental-damage.htm

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Hamilton is 10th as he was penalised, 9th will be empty on the grid, just like Massa's place was in Hungry '09. Sauber can't put in a reserve driver because the driver who started quali is the only one allowed to race on Sunday.

That expalins it nicely, thanks.

Quote :

F1 is trying to make the sport have a smaller green foot print, blown diffusers keep the throttle wide open while off the power, but dump the fuel directly into the exhaust to combust, bypassing the engine. It creates the maximum amount of exhaust gasses at all times, but burns shit tonnes of fuel, although not very green. The new regs will mean that only 10% throttle can be applied when off the power (essentially a high idle), so you can get some benefits of a blown diffuser, but not the insane amounts we have now.

Its not just the green credentials, it's the driver controlled aero device that have been outlawed. Wing stalling fell under that, and was the reason for the rule. Charley Whiting has expressed concerns that using the throttle to keep exhaust gases up also comes under this ruling.

Quote :

But it requires whole new engine maps, hence the delay in rolling out the ban, which will hurt Renault Engines most as such reign in RBR and kill Lotus Renault completely. It'll also get rid of the controversial wet fart sound the cars make. Merc, Ferrari and Cosworth have designed similar engine maps to try and compete with Renault, but as they started the season with non-blown maps it is easy for them to revert back, Renault on the other hand don't have the luxury of non-blown maps, so needed to start from scratch.

The wet fart sound isn't really the issue, but as I edited in earlier, the sound is reminiscent of a pulse jet. The ignition is so far retarded that the engine doesn't generate any torque, but instead acts as a pump to feed a nice fuel/air mixture into the exhaust. I can't remember who tried it a couple of weeks ago, but the exhaust cracked probably due to the high resonant forces generated so it was abandoned. McLaren sounds like its only on overrun, and possibly explains Whitmarsh's confident remarks.

Quote :

The FIA could've been ****s and said "**** you Renault, you're breaking the rules, comply and be uncompetitive, or don't comply and get ejected from the championship year" so giving them a grace was rather sporting.

Well said

Quote from MadCatX :

I don't get it. Isn't the whole point of blown diffusers that you can use exhaust gases to increase the airflow over the diffuser? AFAIK RB and possibly Renault keep engine under power during braking to maximize this effect in flying laps, but it's not like they do it all the time. Higher fuel consumption and extra stress on the engine allows them to use it only for a few laps in the race. It kinda looks like an attempt to hamper RB to even out the pace. If this is where F1 is going, I might as well start watching GP2 where nobody can complain about illegal technical advantages...

That is the theory, but it is suspected that fuel is being burned off by severely retarding the ignition and is effectively being burned in the exhaust itself. Last weeks fire on the Renault might indicate something went wrong with Heidfelds system, especially considering they use forward facing exhausts.

Another clue is in the exhaust note. The "fart" that McLaren have been using for some time, is only on overrun into the corner. RB and Renault "fart" through the corner. My theory is they use the same properties as a Pulse Jet within the exhaust.

Last edited by Squelch, Sat, 28 May 2011 23:25. Reason : Added pulse jet theory

Hmm, good question indeed. It might roll back to Q2 where he used super softs to set a time there.

I just checked to see who would be promoted to 10th and therefore have a the tyre restriction. I'm now a bit confused.

Full Grid line up according to BBC

Perez is still shown 9th, in front of Hamilton. My understanding is the grid place is left vacant for drivers who qualified but are unable to race. Reports say Hamilton was demoted to 9th, and that would put Petrov 10th.

The plot thickens

Quote from Dygear :

Also on the subject of Perez, it seems that he had a puncture and that was why he was off line, and then when we went over the bump, his car bottomed out and he lost all control.

I suspected a puncture at the time, but I just read Sauber claim that it wasn't a technical problem.
The left rear looks awfully under pressure in this screen grab

Last edited by Squelch, Sat, 28 May 2011 23:13. Reason : Double checked grid

Quote from MadCatX :

BTW what the hell's up with the blown diffusers? Are we back in times when whatever Ferrari didn't have was banned and whatever hack McLaren came with was allowed?

Actually Ferrari have borrowed the "Big Hole" exhaust from RB, which they tried to keep quiet. The blown diffusers are not the issue, but the use of engine mapping to keep the pressures up that's in question. The teams most likely to suffer are Red Bull and Lotus Renault - Renault being the engine manufacturer for both incidentaly. Martin Whitmarsh seems confident that the McLaren is safe from whatever rulings are passed in the technical committee meeting next month..

Quote from MadCatX :

I did and I kinda regret that, although I'm a RB fan. Now everyone can say that Vettel got just lucky. But what does that have to do with diffusers?

Lewis, or rather his mechanics did make a mistake in not sending him out early to put a banker time in. Exactly the worst sequence of events happened next. Firstly he got distracted by Massa leaving the pits, and then had to abort due to Sergio's mishap. It really was shaping up to be a shoot out, and we missed out on how close it might have been. In this respect Vettel was gifted the pole, and in reality it might have been much closer.

This just about sums it up.
http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2011/5/12112.html

Last edited by Squelch, Sat, 28 May 2011 22:41. Reason : added f1.com quote

Quote from Squelch :

I've searched, but not found a definitive answer. Does tyre temp affect pressures? I know it works the other way round, but have always assumed that a hotter tyre is at a higher pressure. for some irrational reason I'm doubting it now.

Found it.

Quote from Scawen :

Pressure already varies with temperature (of course).

It's only a few psi difference when the tyre gets quite a lot hotter.

The absolute pressure (relative to a vacuum) is proportional to absolute temperature (relative to absolute zero = -273 degrees C).

Quote from Dygear :

Holy mother, that would be a pretty cool replay.

Yes.
It went something like this.
Almost crashed, skipped the trap, still on track, OMG!, double check, out brake myself, Damn!, Shift+R, Facepalm - I should have saved that.

I have a feeling that pole might not be as important as strategy. It's a tight short circuit, and tyres will really make a difference. It only needs a wrong decision on when to pit before the "cliff" or end up coming back out into slower traffic to mix things up.

Whomever can make their tyres last longest and build enough gap to clear slower traffic is the winner.

My money is on Button.

Some bookies have paid out already on Vettel, which I think is a bit misleading. Yes he is a long way ahead, but we are only 5 races in, and as P5YcHoM4N points out, anything can happen. I reckon it was a smart move by the bookies to mix things up a bit and get people placing more bets. There is no such thing as a poor book maker.

Quote from Scawen :

I don't want to add more than one slider - I just want to keep things simple to get the patch out as soon as possible.

Anyway I have changed it so it goes from -30 to +30 (relative to optimum temperature).

That works for me.

Having all 4 tyres at a known temp doesn't prevent a driver from selectively warming pairs I suppose. Also the different compounds will react differently, so gives some more scope for refining I would guess.

I've searched, but not found a definitive answer. Does tyre temp affect pressures? I know it works the other way round, but have always assumed that a hotter tyre is at a higher pressure. for some irrational reason I'm doubting it now.

Quote from Scawen :

While I'm at it, does anyone know of any walls that you can hit hard without triggering HLVC?

Meaning, they have the wrong surface type and can be used to slow you down - if so, it might be possible for me to detect that wall and change its surface type.

Not a wall, but I have recently missed my turn in at the chicane at We1 in a BF1, realising I wouldn't make it, steered to the right of the tyre stack to avoid damage and I was very surprised to find hitting the kerb launched the car clear of the gravel trap, and did not trigger HVLC. In fact I binned it at the next complex looking up to see if I really had gotten away with it. Sadly I omitted to save the replay, and haven't been able to reproduce the exact same line.

It was this incident that prompted my ramp comment earlier, and I'm sorry I don't have proof yet, but your question compelled me to report it nonetheless.

Quote from Joku123 :

It is faster to start with cool tyres and drive as fast as you can than start with optimum temp tyres and look after tyres.

That is a good question, and my gut feeling is you should be quicker when starting at optimum, and maintaining it for max grip, but who knows

Quote from Fox 2 :

But if layouts were to be allowed in a hotlap, in my opinion, it would be better if those hotlaps were to be disallowed to upload to LFSW in any form. I'm thinking about placing some markers (conus, white lines) for braking points, apexes (AS3r last corner, would help a lot). It's bad enough with "4" helper in multiplayer, I know guys who wouldn't hotlap only because they just can't drive without that line. Contr-argument would be that those layouts would be accessible to anyone, so again, no disadvantage, but I really hate the idea, that we may be hotlapping with this aiding conuses, that's really not in the spirit of hotlapping.

The way I understand it is objects are allowed to be placed in HL mode, but the lap cannot be uploaded. I see them as a good training aid, but would be dissapointed if someone used a ramp to cut a corner and not trigger HLVC for a WR

Quote from Joku123 :

Imo optimum temperature would work only for slow cars/short tracks. On any other combo optimum temp is pretty useless. If you start lap in GTR car with optimum temperature tyres, your tyres will be dead after few corners. For me only slider bar makes sense.

If your tyres are dead after only a few corners, its a bad setup, or you're over driving. Part of the skill is looking after your tyres - for a full race as well as a hotlap - The current problem is starting a hotlap with cooler tyres, and as you say, tyre heating is annoying, and also hard to get right.

If a slider can be produced, then the range should run between the current 20° below optimum to maybe 5° above for all tyres in my opinion. Setting individual tyres is getting too complex I think.
[edit]

Quote from Scawen :

OK, I've done the slider bar, you can choose between 20 and zero below optimum.

Sounds good, and that was quick.
One question if I may - Does tyre temp affect pressures? I've always believed so, but never really been certain.
[/edit]

Last edited by Squelch, Sat, 28 May 2011 17:19.

Quote from Trekkerfahrer :

To moving starting point and choosing tyre temps: Please NO!!! Hotlapping should show us the fastest driver under GIVEN CONDITIONS and if you give them tools to make it more individual, you may destroy the hotlapping mode significantly. All should have the same conditions, thats the point.

Choosing your tyre temps is no different than changing pressures or compounds, so I fail to see your argument.

The current starting temps are ok for race mode, but are way too cold for a hotlap. Trying to build temperature before the lap begins, runs the risk of overheating the carcass before the core. Scawens proposed change would mean that the whole tyre would be uniformly hotter ready for the lap.

I agree that it is the drivers responsibility to managed their tyres, and edited my previous post to allow for it.

Adding objects to hotlap mode sounds good too. I've been sorely wanting some kind of marker to help me get the rhythm and turn in points at West Hill.

[edit]
Oops! crossed post with Scawen.
^^ What he said
The slider sounds sensible if that isn't too much work for you Scawen
[/edit]

Last edited by Squelch, Sat, 28 May 2011 16:38.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Car on the right didn't hold line. It's a straight, not a turn, there is no significant overlap rule. If someone chooses to turn into my front quarter on a straight, it's their loss.

The first turn plunges away to the right after the crest of the hill, and is almost a blind entry. There is really only one line to take from Deer Leap through the very short start finish straight - which isn't quite straight - to Old Hall corner (T1)

The head on camera foreshortens things somewhat, and is off to the side, so doesn't give a true picture of the positions. The view from Clelands car gives a better indication, but we don't see far enough up the road to see where everybody wants to go.

And no, there is no overlap rule in BTCC, and at the end of the day is a typical T1 incident.

Quote from Intrepid :

Can't see it myself.

I think RBR can maintain it's quali advantage here unlike other circuits where it falls away. Last year Webber was so much quicker and Hungary proved the right tracks RBR can maintain it's quali pace into the race.

McLaren's starts haven't been brilliant either.

I hear what you are saying, but RBR race trim over qualifying has not been consistent this season. I think Martin Brundle even said that trying to compare this year against last year is nigh on impossible with all of the tech and rule changes.

It's an impossible call I suppose, but I think the McLaren's look more comfortable on the track which bodes well for the race distance.

Overheating tyres can be a problem for a hotlap setup, so my opinion is a few degrees below optimum so the sweet spot can be achieved quickly through some pre lap manoeuvres - not the acrobatics that some people feel the need to go through - Or, the sweet spot can be hit later in the hotlap.

This really depends on the layout/track though so I have a feeling one temp won't suit all.

If a slider cannot be made without too much work, is it possible to extend the tyre selection to include the current 20° below optimum 10°-5° below and Optimum, or even just two selections?

That isn't a request, but a suggestion if feasible.

[edit]
Thinking some more, it really should be down to the hotlapper to manage their tyres, after all, that is part of the skill. A few degrees, say 5° should prevent the pre lap antics that I'm sure you would like to prevent.

I hotlap a great deal, but have never uploaded - I keep them for my own private embarrassment
[/edit]

Last edited by Squelch, Sat, 28 May 2011 15:52. Reason : Added edit

McLaren have the mechanical grip advantage over the Red Bull Aero at Monaco. Button is in a good position to capitalise on his kinder tyre wear, and might just push a one stopper, or even run a couple of long option stints before a prime dash at the end.

For those that wonder what all the fuss is about, and couldn't find a stream, here's the best YT screener I could find.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzzUIxPFFxg

Quote from Senninha25 :

By the way, I'm loving how Martin is picking on DC's inability of saying "Nick Heidfeld".

Haha! he wouldn't pass the intel test on that.

I think the extraction process is standard now. If the driver doesn't get out under their own steam, then all precautions are taken. I would expect the "over G" light came on as well.

That was shaping up for a great finale, and Seb was gifted the pole in a way.

My heart was in my boots. That looked grim for a few moments there, and hope he is ok.

Seeing the replay, looks like a left rear puncture. It would explain why he was so far off line, and when he hit the first barrier, the tyre deformed dramatically.

Last edited by Squelch, Sat, 28 May 2011 13:17. Reason : Added stuff

Fair play to Rosberg. That crash would put the willy's up anyone, and to go out with hardly any track time to go 4th in qually one is just awesome. the mechanics did well to have the car prepared just 5 mins into the session. More importantly, he's laid the gauntlet down for Schumacher.

Quote from Trekkerfahrer :

I have a workaround for this, had the same problem:

Right click on your LFS.exe -> Properties
Then go to the compatibility tab and activate following settings:
- Disable visual themes
- Disable desktop composition

With these settings the whole Aero will be deactivated when you start LFS and as a benefit: More FPS

Good tip, thank you

Talk of some teams trying a one stop strategy. The race could get messy, and trying to work out where drivers really are, is going to be hard.

Quote from aroX123 :

woooooooooow, brake balance on 5% wtf?

He managed to steer away from the oncoming barrier, well done

That looked pretty horrible. I braced for impact here.

Mercedes mechanics have their work cut out.