Quote from Blackout :

That gave me an idea. When proper clutch and engine models are done, couldn't you be on the 1st gear engine shut off on the grid when the race starts? No rolling and no need for starting notifications.

That is effectively the same as having to switch handbrake off.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

So what are your thoughts then - would it be too much to ask for you to need to use the brake button while on the grid? This would not force anyone to upgrade their hardware.

Well, I wouldn't really mind. What I think everybody agrees on is that the handbrake needs to be automatically on at the start of the race, because a lot of issues can compromise your control of the car. Then, I'm not sure what to do next. I wouldn't mind having to actually brake, it's not a big deal to press a button, but I know that it would piss off some people, and would cause more problems than it solves. I already hear the n00bs complain here and on the servers because they got spectated/pitted/whatever because they were not pressing the brake on time and the car moved/the server thought they were not there.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Why not make the cars start in the pits, do a lap, and then line up in the correct grid order? That's how it works in real life, isn't it?

because its a waste of time

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

One is either trying to create the most accurate simulation possible, or not.

simulation != imitation
simulations are about physics not about hurting playability
also im still waiting for an answer how holding more buttons on the grid adds anything to the skills required to get off the grid as quickly as possible

Quote from geeman1 :

That is effectively the same as having to switch handbrake off.

Yes, totally. But unlike handbrake, firing up a car can be done with a button which was the thing ruining the immersion for some.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

It's still possible to drive without auto-clutch, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

If you're using auto-clutch and mouse, the auto-handbrake discussion is really a moot point because you can easily hold the brakes with one finger while flooring the gas with the other. All you need to do is release the brake finger while shifting into first. So, not having auto-handbrake really shouldn't be difficult at all for you. When dealing with three pedals, a shifter, and a handbrake, it's a different story.

OK, i changed my opinion about the remove of the auto handbrake while doing the car on grid, because so is it possible to detect AFK-Players more easy. I was not against this because of handling with mouse-steering. Sure its absolutely no problem with mouse. And The remove of auto handbrake while start is not a remove of the handbrake.

About the buttons and the clutch:

• Throttle via button is a big problem. In Holland is made a freeware-racing-simulation called "racer" This use just the y-up with mouse for throttle and the y-down of mouse for the brakes, and x-axis for steering. it is really possible to drive with it, but its very difficult, it need longer to be learned and to much y-axis with mouse makes that the precision of x-axis is to bad for a exactly steering, because the hand have not a good place at the desk.
  
• Brakes via button is the same problem, if it not made with y-axis of mouse.
  
• Clutch via button is absolutely impossible to handle. U must then just use the tires as clutch while starting, full throttle> full clutch> burning tires.
  
• Handbrake with a button is possible. Just for the handbrake-use while driving in small curves is a handbrake-pedal for a rungless regulated handbrake needed.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Why not make the cars start in the pits, do a lap, and then line up in the correct grid order? That's how it works in real life, isn't it?

This is impossible because nobody find then his right start-position and the start-area is then really a "carnage". Maybe the player-names must be written on the grids, but until everybody have found his place go much time in the land.

Quote from Blackout :

That gave me an idea. When proper clutch and engine models are done, couldn't you be on the 1st gear engine shut off on the grid when the race starts? No rolling and no need for starting notifications.

There is some play on the drivetrain so the car would not be totally stationary +million though

Quote from Shotglass :

also im still waiting for an answer how holding more buttons on the grid adds anything to the skills required to get off the grid as quickly as possible

Which is harder...?

1) eating with a spoon
2) eating with two spoons



.

Quote from Shotglass :

im still waiting for an answer how holding more buttons on the grid adds anything to the skills required to get off the grid as quickly as possible

I never said it took more skill

simulation = imitation != magic handbrake ^2

Quote from Hyperactive :

There is some play on the drivetrain so the car would not be totally stationary +million though

Not that it has to be right now

Technically right now you can leave a split second before the green.

edit: ^^^ LOL @ deggis!

Quote from boosterfire :

What I think everybody agrees on is that the handbrake needs to be automatically on at the start of the race, because a lot of issues can compromise your control of the car.

This is precisely what we DO NOT agree on.

The handbrake does not need to be on at the start of the race. Drivers just need to press on the brakes, just as they would in real life.

Quote from Hyperactive :

There is some play on the drivetrain so the car would not be totally stationary +million though

Well...how much could the car move then?

Quote from Cue-Ball :

This is precisely what we DO NOT agree on.

The handbrake does not need to be on at the start of the race. Drivers just need to press on the brakes, just as they would in real life.

Exactly, i don't know what's all the fuss about, you would hold the brakes on a uphill in real life, so hold them here too, jeez.. !

Quote from matze54564 :

This is impossible because nobody find then his right start-position and the start-area is then really a "carnage". Maybe the player-names must be written on the grids, but until everybody have found his place go much time in the land.

In the real world, racers don't have their names printed on their starting grid spot. They simply know that they are starting in position X. They know which car is ahead and which is behind, and position themselves accordingly.

If someone cannot manage to get their car placed into the correct box at the start line, they should not be racing.

Quote from deggis :

Which is harder...?

1) eating with a spoon
2) eating with two spoons

eating with one is harder or at least slower therefore not having a handbrake button to push as well is harder

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I never said it took more skill

simulation = imitation != magic handbrake ^2

first of all a sim doesnt imitate reality it simulates physics ... huge difference
secondly how is the handbrake magic ? all it does is put more function into a single keypress with these suggestions most drivers would probably script handbrake and clutch to the same button and nothing would change

if it was a poll I would vote -1

disabling auto-handbrake at starts is ruining playability at all

we are talking about 1% part of a race, why should this be so important? let it be as it is now...

Quote from Shotglass :

secondly how is the handbrake magic ? all it does is put more function into a single keypress with these suggestions most drivers would probably script handbrake and clutch to the same button and nothing would change

I was just bugging you, but since you asked - the handbrake engages itself, and disengages itself. That is magic!

Quote :

In the real world, racers don't have their names printed on their starting grid spot. They simply know that they are starting in position X. They know which car is ahead and which is behind, and position themselves accordingly.

If someone cannot manage to get their car placed into the correct box at the start line, they should not be racing.

Yeah, but in the real world, most of us aren't racers. Having to navigate your way into position, that would be carnage, and it would take an age. You could easily miss your position, then have to U-turn back through the crowd, which in a full grid, people going this way and that, would probably be impossible. Next to that, a manual handbrake option would be as simple a matter as falling off a log.

Also, I think handbrake should be on at the beginning of the race. The cars have teleported there, so you can imagine that time has simply moved forward and all of this lining up business has already taken place, and in that time, the handbrake has gone on (if its a downhill start).

I don't know. I don't care

Quote from Shotglass :

eating with one is harder or at least slower

Both wrong... try it next time you eat. With two spoons you need to coordinate both hands what makes it also harder compared to one hand with one spoon and the other hand doing nothing.

so

Quote :

first of all a sim doesnt imitate reality it simulates physics ... huge difference

I thougth LFS was a racing simulator, not just a physics simulation.

Quote :

secondly how is the handbrake magic ?

BBTurbo already said... In LFS take any car, drive it, then stop it completely and engage handbrake. Put in 1st gear and give 1/3 throttle input while saying "OPEN SESAME" and the handbrake goes off. Quite a magic trick.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

This is precisely what we DO NOT agree on.

The handbrake does not need to be on at the start of the race. Drivers just need to press on the brakes, just as they would in real life.

Would cause too much problems; it happens that you get lag or something and you only see your car when the race actually starts. With this thing, your car would be gone in the one in front.

Quote from boosterfire :

Would cause too much problems; it happens that you get lag or something and you only see your car when the race actually starts. With this thing, your car would be gone in the one in front.

I could swear that you're speaking English, but I haven't a clue what it is you are saying.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I was just bugging you

dont worry i know you were

Quote :

but since you asked - the handbrake engages itself, and disengages itself. That is magic!

it engages itself for reasons which are far too obvious and id also rather refer to it as "its already engaged"
and it doesnt disengage itself its disengaged upon driver input by either shifting to first or engaging the clutch

Quote from deggis :

Both wrong... try it next time you eat. With two spoons you need to coordinate both hands what makes it also harder compared to one hand with one spoon and the other hand doing nothing.

youre the type who first cuts his entire steak and then goes to eat with his fork in his right hand arent you ?

Quote :

I thougth LFS was a racing simulator, not just a physics simulation.

racing is first and foremost goverend by physics
and while were at it ... racers dont use the handbrake its a drifting feature so we better get rid of it

Quote :

BBTurbo already said... In LFS take any car, drive it, then stop it completely and engage handbrake. Put in 1st gear and give 1/3 throttle input while saying "OPEN SESAME" and the handbrake goes off. Quite a magic trick.

and pressing a button is better in which way ?
the point is its your driver input that disengages the handbrake and not some magic thingmaboo

Quote from Shotglass :

its disengaged upon driver input by either shifting to first or engaging the clutch

Shifting into gear does not do it, nor does the clutch. LFS waits for there to be an attempt to move the car to some degree before removing the handbrake, so there is no direct input from the user to disengage it. This is magic!

It's possible to heel/toe while slipping the clutch to build boost, but if you disengage the clutch a tiny bit too much the handbrake goes away. The car then rocks back & forth a bit. If you don't have enough brake on, potentially the car would roll foward when the handbrake lets go, which is another reason this method is bogus.

Quote :

... racers dont use the handbrake its a drifting feature so we better get rid of it

Good point

Quote :

racing is first and foremost goverend by physics

But it's also governed by procedure.

Quote :

and pressing a button is better in which way ?
the point is its your driver input that disengages the handbrake and not some magic thingmaboo

In fact, it's not directly a user control that disengages it, rather as I said it's when LFS decides that you're applying enough force that the car should move. Therefore it is in fact a magic thingamaboo.

I think auto handbrake should go, if anyone have trouble figuring out how to work with a handbrake, I guess it's time they should learn it.

Quote from Shotglass :

by either shifting to first or engaging the clutch

Shifting to first does not, you need to give some throttle, there seems to be some kind of magical limit at about 30% throttle input that triggers it.

Quote :

youre the type who first cuts his entire steak and then goes to eat with his fork in his right hand arent you ?

and you're the one who mixes up a spoon to a knife? I don't usually put knife to my mouth Read it again..

Quote :

and pressing a button is better in which way ?

In which way in most of the road cars using paddles to shift compared to automatic gear changing (not meaning auto gearbox) is better? Is that as unrealistic as button vs. home-made axis handbrake?

Quote from deggis :

Shifting to first does not, you need to give some throttle, there seems to be some kind of magical limit at about 30% throttle input that triggers it.

Provided the clutch is not manually engaged, yes.