Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

I hear what you're saying, but if Lewis is driving for a top team, surely that would mean that mistakes should be at a min.

as for no excuses....bull, you just made one up for him.

I think your mis-enterpreting what im saying, otherwise how is saying that Lewis cant hide behind a small budget, mid-pack expectation team's car as the reason for doing 'ok' in a race considered giving him an excuse. He's got everything available to challenge for wins, and so really when he doesnt then people generally question why he wasnt faster, they dont say 'oh well, he's only in a BMW/TR, he did the best he could' because people know what its capable of and he's expected to fight for the win, just as both the Ferrari boys are.


If Kubica is so great, why wasnt he consistantly pushing for wins, the BMW is far from crap, infact i was reading yesterday was the first time in 2 seasons where they havent picked up a point, they're in the 3rd best team by a fair distance and were on a really challenging pace at the start of the season, but they were gifted 1 win, while Renault won twice and TR won once. Kubica picked up reasonable points here and there, Lewis & Massa faught for the title, Kubica found himself in with a chance, but only by their misfortune. We havent seen anything of Kubica to say he's a great racer, he hasnt really been involved with the top racers, blame the car all you like, but until he's in a car that can challenge for a title and he's able to race an earn wins by beating the best, how can anyone say he's a better driver or deserves to win anything.
Bobby deserved 4th, he wasnt screwed by the FIA, wasnt rammed off the track by a rival unable to accept he was being fairly passed, and he finished 4th. I highly, highly doubt he's the best driver in F1, he's maybe the 5th best, so he's got more than he deserves IMO. Alonso is a far better driver, but he doesnt deserve anything more than he got, he is where he is, in a worse car than the BMW, got better 'left-over' results, but im sure he doesnt expect consider himself deserving of much more than he got.

He's done well, but he certainly doesnt deserve to win the title this year, theres no pity points in F1, no points for trying, and rightly theres no title of World drivers he did well considering the car he's in Champion. Maybe he was the best driver given the circumstances, im not sure, plenty of drivers have done well considering the car they're in, Glock being one who's been overlooked (though the moany sods will dismiss him as being the sole reason Lewis is WDC and thus crap). Theres plenty of good young talent in F1 at the moment, but if you put all of them in an identical car, im betting that Lewis would come out on top 8 times out of 10, i think only Schumi would be able to consistantly beat him at the moment.
Considering in his first season he should have won the title, and the 2nd season he did, i think its quite possible that we'll enter another dull Schumi-type period in F1 when things become predictable. If he's currently making mistakes and should have won titles both seasons then god help everyone when he stops making them.

Going onto a slightly depressing o/t tangent, in those last few laps was anyone else thinking: Is this end of a golden era of F1?
Okay so in some ways it has been a bit stale for a few years but it went out with a bit of a sideways tail-out flourish, the cars were great to watch this year. I just couldn't shake a rather sad feeling that we will probably now never see another solely petrol-fuelled internal combustion engined "pure" Formula One car ever again.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

But Lewis's and Massa's mistakes were rookie mistakes........ I don't remember the likes of Senna, Schumacher etc etc making such blatant rookie mistakes.

Adelaide '94.

Come on. Let's just stop it.
Lewis is champ and it's well deserved.

Quote from Intrepid :

Purely looking at Heikki's performances it doesn't take that much of an imagination to say Hamilton was in the 3rd best car. Heikki, rated by many, placed BEHIND Alonso and the TWO BMWs.

I'm sure Heikki was given no choise or possibility from mclaren to finish before louis. And we all know what would have happened if Heikki had finished before louis

Quote from Hyperactive :

I'm sure Heikki was given no choise or possibility from mclaren to finish before louis. And we all know what would have happened if Heikki had finished before louis

He would have been made King of Brazil?

Quote from Hyperactive :

I'm sure Heikki was given no choise or possibility from mclaren to finish before louis. And we all know what would have happened if Heikki had finished before louis

In fairness his performance leading up to the last rounds is what led to him being the clear number 2 supporting driver. Heiki just hasnt been competitive all season, and although he seems like a thoroughly nice guy from interviews and such, and I hope he manages to find a turn of speed, the fact is he's underperformed.

Quote from Hyperactive :

And we all know what would have happened if Heikki had finished before louis

Quote from sinbad :

He would have been made King of Brazil?

Apparently not everyone

Quote from Becky Rose :

In fairness his performance leading up to the last rounds is what led to him being the clear number 2 supporting driver. Heiki just hasnt been competitive all season, and although he seems like a thoroughly nice guy from interviews and such, and I hope he manages to find a turn of speed, the fact is he's underperformed.

Yeah, all true but I was just making the point that there was no chance for Heikki to finish above louis in this race and therefore it is also useless to compare louis' performance on Heikki and make the claim that louis was in the 3rd best car on the grid because Heikki finished where he finished. Which is nowhere.

Quote from Hyperactive :

Apparently not everyone


Yeah, all true but I was just making the point that there was no chance for Heikki to finish above louis in this race and therefore it is also useless to compare louis' performance on Heikki and make the claim that louis was in the 3rd best car on the grid because Heikki finished where he finished. Which is nowhere.

But where was Heikki when mcLaren needed him. China casing point.

The debate is still going on. In the end the best driver won the WDC and that is that. I can see it when Hamilton becomes a multiple world champion the debate will still be going on that no one likes him or try to make excusses up for why the other top drivers didn't win the WDC. When will the bickering stop lol.

maybe when the army of hamilton fans become less annoying (which is impossibility really)

Quote from Intrepid :

But where was Heikki when mcLaren needed him. China casing point.

Haemitlon beat Kovalainen in races 10-0. Heikki's race pace just wasn't comparable to Louis'. In qualis I think that Heikki did better, he didn't lose that much but had to take heavier car on all races except one (pole). What's so special about china?

Bickering will end one week before Australia, when AroX opens up the next F1 thread.

For once, it would probably be better if he opened it a bit sooner.

When does the 2009 season start?

Quote from JJ72 :

maybe when the army of hamilton fans become less annoying (which is impossibility really)

To be fair, the army of hamilton haters out of pure jealousy for the guy is also pretty annoying.

I voted yes, why wouldn't he have deserved it?

Quote from Gills4life :

To be fair, the army of hamilton haters out of pure jealousy for the guy is also pretty annoying.

Too true. I have to say I have watched with amusement as year by year all the Hamilton doubters have been proved wrong. All started about 12 years ago. The only thing I do regret is not forcing my old man to lay that goddam bet! I actually recall passing the bookies in the car aged 10 or 11 Some dude has now £125,000 coz he laid the right bet!!!!! GODDAMIT!

They may call me a Hamilton fanboy, but when you've been able to witness his talent first hand and see what he had to go though you do have a slightly different perspective

anyway I am old enough to bet now fingers crossed I got the right bet! only ten years to wait though lol And no! I won't tell you who they are !!!!

Quote from aoun :

I voted yes, why wouldn't he have deserved it?

Can't say fairer than that, IMO.

My reasons for supporting Hammy are many-times stated in this thread and others. I have to admit feeling terrible pangs of sympathy for Massa, specifically for that tumble he took in the first few seconds after crossing the line. Who couldn't feel sorry for him, really, in that instant?

However, the net result was entirely fair. I was prepared to be angry if Hami had missed by one point because, try as I might, I *still* haven't found any word from the FIA on their justification for Bourdais' penalty, given hours after the event, which I believed at the time was wrong and I still maintain (as it's generally accepted in the F1 pitlane) was purely an exercise in points-gifting to Massa. If Massa had won the WDC it would most definitely have had less value in the paddock than if Hammy won it. I'm glad that Hammy won it because I can walk away from this season feeling that justice WAS served, and that my adoration for the sport might yet survive, thanks entirely to a righteous raincloud.

the true deservers are not Hamilton but McLaren. If it wasn't for them seeing the potential and investing so much to get him to where he is [combined with his talent to drive], no way he would be there so soon....

So hats off to McLaren really....

I am not a fanboy of hamilton, i do like him a lot and i feel sorry for him the way that the media sometimes make him come across arrogant or bigheaded. IMO he deserved it more than any other driver this season.

I was just reading a forum on the Sun's website about whether hamilton deserved the championship and it is really REALLY annoying reading all the people's comments who clearly have no idea about what actually happened calling the race a "fix". So many people just assume that Glock slowed down for him. Took his foot off the gas. Think he was the only person on slicks in the wet. They haven't even bothered to look at the facts and see the lap times. If Glock slowed down on that last lap then why the hell was he faster than Trulli, the only other driver on slicks. It's a pisstake. Really getting on my nerves, and these are british people... why are so many people against hamilton, a british driver, winning the world championship? What has he done so wrong? Is it a crime that he has a lot of talent which not many other people have?

It just seems like jealousy to me.

Quote from StableX :

the true deservers are not Hamilton but McLaren. If it wasn't for them seeing the potential and investing so much to get him to where he is [combined with his talent to drive], no way he would be there so soon....

So hats off to McLaren really....

well.... you could extend that to Martin Hines. It was him, and many others at the time that saw the potential. It was Martin however that helped convince McLaren about Lewis. What McLaren did was not 'talent spot' as it were, they were just VERY brave!

Quote from Gills4life :

I am not a fanboy of hamilton, i do like him a lot and i feel sorry for him the way that the media sometimes make him come across arrogant or bigheaded. IMO he deserved it more than any other driver this season.

I was just reading a forum on the Sun's website about whether hamilton deserved the championship and it is really REALLY annoying reading all the people's comments who clearly have no idea about what actually happened calling the race a "fix". So many people just assume that Glock slowed down for him. Took his foot off the gas. Think he was the only person on slicks in the wet. They haven't even bothered to look at the facts and see the lap times. If Glock slowed down on that last lap then why the hell was he faster than Trulli, the only other driver on slicks. It's a pisstake. Really getting on my nerves, and these are british people... why are so many people against hamilton, a british driver, winning the world championship? What has he done so wrong? Is it a crime that he has a lot of talent which not many other people have?

It just seems like jealousy to me.

To the uneducated it does look as if he backed off. The fact just some drizzle can make it nigh on impossible to drive on slicks is not even in their mind set. They think that driving on the motorway in the rain at 70mph qualifies them as experts

MANY of the spectators won't even get the chance to try motorsport so they just DON'T know. Anyone can go to a park and try a Beckham free kick, not many people can try an F1 in the rain on slicks!

Jealousy, with a hint of not knowing much about driving in the rain on slicks!

Quote from Intrepid :

To the uneducated it does look as if he backed off. The fact just some drizzle can make it nigh on impossible to drive on slicks is not even in their mind set. They think that driving on the motorway in the rain at 70mph qualifies them as experts

MANY of the spectators won't even get the chance to try motorsport so they just DON'T know. Anyone can go to a park and try a Beckham free kick, not many people can try an F1 in the rain on slicks!

Jealousy, with a hint of not knowing much about driving in the rain on slicks!

Well someone needs to tell them to try it for themselves before making bullshit statements that just cause even more stupid conspiracies. Hamilton won it fair and square. If Glock had pitted and been on inters Hamilton would of got 5th even easier. Lewis should be getting praise for keeping a cool head and passing Glock right at the end, instead he is being frowned upon because Glock had the wrong tyres on.

Like I said before, I am not particularly a fan of Hamilton, more a fan of the sport. Just things like this make me so annoyed

Quote from Gills4life :

Well someone needs to tell them to try it for themselves before making bullshit statements that just cause even more stupid conspiracies. Hamilton won it fair and square. If Glock had pitted and been on inters Hamilton would of got 5th even easier. Lewis should be getting praise for keeping a cool head and passing Glock right at the end, instead he is being frowned upon because Glock had the wrong tyres on.

Like I said before, I am not particularly a fan of Hamilton, more a fan of the sport. Just things like this make me so annoyed

It does look suss though so I can forgive people for being uninformed!

Quote from Intrepid :

It does look suss though so I can forgive people for being uninformed!

True, but because they are uninformed they immediately call the race a fix. They cannot justify that and it doesn't do Hamilton's performance over the entire season justice at all either.

Sun readers. Not much more to say, really. Every well-paved street has a gutter.